Author Topic: To go tubeless or stay tubed.  (Read 5581 times)

halhorner

  • Cycling Weakly
Re: To go tubeless or stay tubed.
« Reply #50 on: January 15, 2021, 07:23:16 am »
For what it's worth...i took the plunge about 2 years ago despite some initial sceptism. For me it's been fine. I've only got the 1 bike so I had a new wheel set with tubeless rims built up by the nice folks at Spa Cycles. They also set me up with the initial tyre fit, tsaape, valves etc. I don't ride that much, typically a 100km club social run on a Saturday and a handful of audaxes a year. I've had no problems at all. I've swapped the tyres once for which I bought an Airshot and despite all the horror stories I'd heard it was very straightforward. Likewise topping up the sealant is simple. The biggest difference I've noticed is speed, for  me I reckon I'm on average 2mph quicker for the same effort which almost feels like cheating but is great fun. I can't honestly say I've noticed much difference in terms of ride comfort. I didn't mind fixing punctures before but it is lovely not to have any.

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  • Mediocre polyglot.Scoutmaster and nudist
Re: To go tubeless or stay tubed.
« Reply #51 on: January 15, 2021, 07:40:18 am »
Quick thread recap:

OP asks whether it is worth using changing to tubeless

Number of people who have used tubeless and report positive experiences= 12

Number of people who have used tubeless and regret it=0

Number of people who have never used tubeless but repeatedly warn against it, in the direst terms=1

To go tubeless or stay tubed.
« Reply #52 on: January 15, 2021, 11:45:17 am »
All the negative points about tubeless are completely correct but are outweighed by the positives. I went tubeless about 18 months ago after a bad run of punctures and would not go back. When using my tubed back up bike I had another run of punctures - it is tubeless now too.

I have had two occasions where I have had to put a tube in about 18000km of riding, (including a fair bit on unsuitable surfaces tile grabbing). One of these was due to my own foolishness. I carry a small superglue and used this to mend a slice that was too large too seal. This was meant as a temporary repair to get me home. Several weeks later the temporary repair failed and I had a very messy tube insertion (I had just topped up the gizz). It was also more difficult as I discovered I only had one tyre lever! then I had a nervous “I no longer have a spare tube” ride.

I have had none of the other difficulties and with my roval/gp5000 combo, I have had no difficulty getting tyres on by hand or  off with normal levers and have just used a normal track pump to inflate.

Re: To go tubeless or stay tubed.
« Reply #53 on: January 15, 2021, 06:19:09 pm »
All the negative points about tubeless are completely correct but are outweighed by the positives.

that may be the case for many users, ( although I  hardly need mention that one -or even a hundred- swallows do not a summer make).  However  some folk argue their case by completely ignoring or denying any such shortcomings, and by using a mixture of half-truths and  downright lies.

When they are called on it they immediately resort to a mixture of more lies and various inexcusable (not to mention ridiculous) forms of abuse.

I don't think they realise that this demeans them, devalues anything they have to say on any subject, demeans us all and makes what should be a useful forum for intelligent discussion of ideas and experiences into little more than (yet another) rather unpleasant little corner of the internet, apparently populated by a mixture of inexcusably rude idiots, folk who don't care, and moderators that don't, er, moderate.


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  • Mediocre polyglot.Scoutmaster and nudist
Re: To go tubeless or stay tubed.
« Reply #54 on: January 15, 2021, 06:28:36 pm »
Quick thread recap:

OP asks whether it is worth using changing to tubeless

Number of people who have used tubeless and report positive experiences= 12 13   Edited with updated figures

Number of people who have used tubeless and regret it=0

Number of people who have never used tubeless but repeatedly warn against it, in the direst terms=1


Re: To go tubeless or stay tubed.
« Reply #55 on: January 15, 2021, 06:59:02 pm »
see above

Re: To go tubeless or stay tubed.
« Reply #56 on: January 15, 2021, 07:00:14 pm »
All the negative points about tubeless are completely correct but are outweighed by the positives.

that may be the case for many users, ( although I  hardly need mention that one -or even a hundred- swallows do not a summer make).  However  some folk argue their case by completely ignoring or denying any such shortcomings, and by using a mixture of half-truths and  downright lies.

When they are called on it they immediately resort to a mixture of more lies and various inexcusable (not to mention ridiculous) forms of abuse.

I don't think they realise that this demeans them, devalues anything they have to say on any subject, demeans us all and makes what should be a useful forum for intelligent discussion of ideas and experiences into little more than (yet another) rather unpleasant little corner of the internet, apparently populated by a mixture of inexcusably rude idiots, folk who don't care, and moderators that don't, er, moderate.
In that same 18000 km I had bent derailleur hanger and a di2 failure, both of which I could have avoided by always riding fixed, however on balance having gears would be my choice and and I would recommend to most.

I will not abandon tubes completely, I will keep them on my vintage bikes for nostalgic reasons.

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: To go tubeless or stay tubed.
« Reply #57 on: January 15, 2021, 07:09:29 pm »
The phrase “get a room” comes to mind for some reason.

Anyway, I’m currently running with tubes on my audax bike because I had a nightmare trying to set it up tubeless and eventually just gave up.

The problem was that the valve switch on my airstore pump broke and it has proved impossible to get the tyre fully seated without it (this was a refitting - it was easy enough first time round with the airstore pump).

I don’t know if it’s down to the tyre/rim combination* or ineptitude on my part, but CBA so just sticking with tubes for now.

Still a confirmed fan of tubeless though, and intend to get the bike back into a tubeless state at some point.


*Stans Grail + Maxxis Padrone
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

IanDG

  • The p*** artist formerly known as 'Windy'
    • My Instagram
Re: To go tubeless or stay tubed.
« Reply #58 on: January 15, 2021, 07:31:50 pm »
Quick thread recap:

OP asks whether it is worth using changing to tubeless

Number of people who have used tubeless and report positive experiences= 12

Number of people who have used tubeless and regret it=0

Number of people who have never used tubeless but repeatedly warn against it, in the direst terms=1

OK I went tubeless but after 3 punctures in 4 months that ripped big holes in the sidewalls that needed a boot and tube to get home I went back to tubes ;)

Re: To go tubeless or stay tubed.
« Reply #59 on: January 15, 2021, 07:42:55 pm »


In that same 18000 km I had bent derailleur hanger and a di2 failure, both of which I could have avoided by always riding fixed, however on balance having gears would be my choice and and I would recommend to most.

I will not abandon tubes completely, I will keep them on my vintage bikes for nostalgic reasons.

fair enough.  I guess in a nutshell my contentions are twofold;

1) that there are shortcomings (with any system) which folk ought  to at least be aware of before they take the plunge and
2) that whilst they are certainly  not commonplace,  there are more 'unexplained incidents' than I'd like to see.

The photo I posted upthread I think shows what happens if you use too much pressure in a tubeless tyre, in an attempt to blow it off the rim.  However this experiment was only carried out because a professional cycling journalist had just had this happen for real, on the road, on a new bike under test, as supplied by the manufacturer, at tyre pressures where it shouldn't.

So if this happens (say) to one in a hundred or even one in a thousand users, you might have ninety-nine or even nine hundred and ninety-nine folk reporting (or pointlessly, endlessly, shouting...)  positive experiences but there may be a real problem for the remaining unlucky ones.  Now if the consequences are slight, it isn't a very great concern. But if the consequences are not slight, then it is (or ruddy well should be) of more concern. 

The fit of bicycle tyres on rims has long been inconsistent.  For tubeless to work well, it needs to be better than it often has been to date, and there is evidence to suggest that it isn't yet consistent enough.  In addition to this there is widespread misunderstanding about what really keeps tyres on rims, even amongst folk who should know better.  I believe it is possible (for example) for the benefit of hooked rim beads to be lost entirely in some tubeless setups, yet even manufacturer's data suggests otherwise; they may be correct (on the basis of their testing)  but then again they may just have not yet carried out the right kind of tests.


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  • Mediocre polyglot.Scoutmaster and nudist
Re: To go tubeless or stay tubed.
« Reply #60 on: January 15, 2021, 07:56:38 pm »
Quick thread recap:

OP asks whether it is worth using changing to tubeless

Number of people who have used tubeless and report positive experiences= 12

Number of people who have used tubeless and regret it=0

Number of people who have never used tubeless but repeatedly warn against it, in the direst terms=1

OK I went tubeless but after 3 punctures in 4 months that ripped big holes in the sidewalls that needed a boot and tube to get home I went back to tubes ;)

Now look what you've done  ::-)


 ;D ;D ;D ;D

IanDG

  • The p*** artist formerly known as 'Windy'
    • My Instagram
Re: To go tubeless or stay tubed.
« Reply #61 on: January 15, 2021, 08:13:11 pm »
Quick thread recap:

OP asks whether it is worth using changing to tubeless

Number of people who have used tubeless and report positive experiences= 12

Number of people who have used tubeless and regret it=0

Number of people who have never used tubeless but repeatedly warn against it, in the direst terms=1

OK I went tubeless but after 3 punctures in 4 months that ripped big holes in the sidewalls that needed a boot and tube to get home I went back to tubes ;)

Now look what you've done  ::-)


 ;D ;D ;D ;D

 ;D ;D ;D

May have been Lewisian Gneiss - haven't tried tubeless since moving south :D

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  • Mediocre polyglot.Scoutmaster and nudist
Re: To go tubeless or stay tubed.
« Reply #62 on: January 15, 2021, 08:19:31 pm »
Don't do it. You'll die at the side of the road in something resembling a bukkake scene in a hardcore porn movie

IanDG

  • The p*** artist formerly known as 'Windy'
    • My Instagram
Re: To go tubeless or stay tubed.
« Reply #63 on: January 15, 2021, 08:20:26 pm »
Don't do it. You'll die at the side of the road in something resembling a bukkake scene in s hardcore porn movie

 ;D ;D ;D

Re: To go tubeless or stay tubed.
« Reply #64 on: January 16, 2021, 10:40:13 am »
Don't do it. You'll die at the side of the road in something resembling a bukkake scene in s hardcore porn movie

 ;D ;D ;D

Latex and outdoors!! ;D  HF I hope you have got the copyright sorted on that one, the royalties will pay for the Di2 on your next bike!

On a more serious note I have realised that I am actually wasting a certain amount of time reading this  since the bikes most likely to benefit from a tubeless conversion in my garage are 650b with relatively narrow rims and rim brakes. Finding any reasonably priced rims in Europe is not easy (I have never seen Kinlin rims over here for example) - even though when I next need to buy tyres, which won't be for a while,  they will probably be tubeless ready.

The bike in the garage that most fits the tubeless logic (I don't usually carry tools on it since it usually does short rides) is the folder. Now 406 rim brake rims, 36h tubeless with a price cap of 150€ for the conversion (need 47-406 tyres as well but I could always wear out the old ones first) would definitely interest me.

Re: To go tubeless or stay tubed.
« Reply #65 on: January 16, 2021, 10:48:30 am »


In that same 18000 km I had bent derailleur hanger and a di2 failure, both of which I could have avoided by always riding fixed, however on balance having gears would be my choice and and I would recommend to most.

I will not abandon tubes completely, I will keep them on my vintage bikes for nostalgic reasons.

fair enough.  I guess in a nutshell my contentions are twofold;

1) that there are shortcomings (with any system) which folk ought  to at least be aware of before they take the plunge and
2) that whilst they are certainly  not commonplace,  there are more 'unexplained incidents' than I'd like to see.

The photo I posted upthread I think shows what happens if you use too much pressure in a tubeless tyre, in an attempt to blow it off the rim.  However this experiment was only carried out because a professional cycling journalist had just had this happen for real, on the road, on a new bike under test, as supplied by the manufacturer, at tyre pressures where it shouldn't.

So if this happens (say) to one in a hundred or even one in a thousand users, you might have ninety-nine or even nine hundred and ninety-nine folk reporting (or pointlessly, endlessly, shouting...)  positive experiences but there may be a real problem for the remaining unlucky ones.  Now if the consequences are slight, it isn't a very great concern. But if the consequences are not slight, then it is (or ruddy well should be) of more concern. 

The fit of bicycle tyres on rims has long been inconsistent.  For tubeless to work well, it needs to be better than it often has been to date, and there is evidence to suggest that it isn't yet consistent enough.  In addition to this there is widespread misunderstanding about what really keeps tyres on rims, even amongst folk who should know better.  I believe it is possible (for example) for the benefit of hooked rim beads to be lost entirely in some tubeless setups, yet even manufacturer's data suggests otherwise; they may be correct (on the basis of their testing)  but then again they may just have not yet carried out the right kind of tests.
You would have to balance that with the danger of getting more frequent punctures with tubed tyres and the rapid deflation of a pinch puncture. I would need to see proper statistics on serious injury caused by punctures both tubed and tubeless before deciding on safety grounds, and then probably decide on jogging instead.

fd3

Re: To go tubeless or stay tubed.
« Reply #66 on: January 16, 2021, 11:07:05 am »
Really late reply to the OP: I found the move to tubeless very straightforward; I have not had a puncture since, but then I also didn’t have a puncture for a year with the same tyre in tubed version.  I use Hutchinson overrides and my riding is commuting&utility.  My understanding is that the schwalbe g-one is similar and better (if a bit heavier).
As you have the wheel setup you could buy the g-ones and fit tubeless (this will cost you some valves and liquid) whose case scenario you won’t like it and get a bit messy.  If it doesn’t appeal, you can stick in tubes and revert with little issue.
And we know the flag of love is from above/And we can force you to be free

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  • Mediocre polyglot.Scoutmaster and nudist
Re: To go tubeless or stay tubed.
« Reply #67 on: January 16, 2021, 01:34:20 pm »


In that same 18000 km I had bent derailleur hanger and a di2 failure, both of which I could have avoided by always riding fixed, however on balance having gears would be my choice and and I would recommend to most.

I will not abandon tubes completely, I will keep them on my vintage bikes for nostalgic reasons.

Tedious windbag guff
.
You would have to balance that with the danger of getting more frequent punctures with tubed tyres and the rapid deflation of a pinch puncture. I would need to see proper statistics on serious injury caused by punctures both tubed and tubeless before deciding on safety grounds, and then probably decide on jogging instead.

The most serious crash I ever had (10 years ago)  was due to a front tyre blowout. Got concussion. Tubed tyre.

3 years ago I got a slow puncture in Snowdonia, changed the tube, rode home. The next day I pumped up the tyre a bit with my track pump. Got down the road, tube exploded. Just managed to stop before tyre rolled off. Tubed tyre.

Glad it didn't happen on the 50mph descent to Dinas Mawddy the day before.

Still waiting for my tubeless tyres to roll off  ;)

Re: To go tubeless or stay tubed.
« Reply #68 on: January 16, 2021, 04:33:55 pm »

You would have to balance that with the danger of getting more frequent punctures with tubed tyres and the rapid deflation of a pinch puncture. I would need to see proper statistics on serious injury caused by punctures both tubed and tubeless before deciding on safety grounds, and then probably decide on jogging instead.

needless to say the intention is to arm oneself with enough knowledge that you are less likely to become a statistic, regardless of what kind of tyres you use, by understanding what makes a difference and how to identify it ahead of time.  Burying your head in the sand and ignoring possible problems has one effect on this, trying to dig in and work out what really makes a difference has another. For example the information in the diagram I posted upthread ought really to be more widely known and understood; you can certainly come unstuck (literally) this way.

I have had tyres come off rims myself and I've seen it happen to others; there has usually been a reason it has happened; (not always one which would give you much comfort when using random pairings of rims and tyres....) . I would hope that I've learned enough that I'd make the chances of the same thing happening again a lot less. 

Re: To go tubeless or stay tubed.
« Reply #69 on: January 17, 2021, 05:01:14 pm »
I suppose the issue is that your posts might put people off trying tubeless and the vast majority of people once they have tried, prefer them. Not everyone, but the vast majority. Your very negative posts are therefore reducing the totality of cycling enjoyment which is a bad thing.

Re: To go tubeless or stay tubed.
« Reply #70 on: January 17, 2021, 05:20:03 pm »
you and some others may perceive my posts as 'negative' but there is more than one viewpoint regarding the benefits  (which, if you bother  looking, I have described reasonably accurately just before being inexcusably insulted and abused).  If my comments  result in just one person who avoids a nasty accident or a problem on the road I would say that is a very good thing. 'Putting people off cycling?.. that is some weak ale indeed, isn't it? Forearmed is forewarned;  it surely has to be better than folk believing a load of tripe about putting a tube in being 'exactly the same' with tubeless and so forth; anyone who has done it knows just how  misleading that really is.

My view is that as long as there are shouty abusive f-wits on this forum, you will likely only hear one side of most discussions, because believe it or not most people prefer not to be abused and insulted for no good reason.  You know how there are pubs you prefer not to go in, because there are idiots inside who just want a fight? A bit like that.


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  • Mediocre polyglot.Scoutmaster and nudist
Re: To go tubeless or stay tubed.
« Reply #71 on: January 17, 2021, 05:38:15 pm »
shouty abusive f-wits

a mixture of half-truths and  downright lies.

When they are called on it they immediately resort to a mixture of more lies and various inexcusable (not to mention ridiculous) forms of abuse.

I don't think they realise that this demeans them, devalues anything they have to say on any subject, demeans us all and makes what should be a useful forum for intelligent discussion of ideas and experiences into little more than (yet another) rather unpleasant little corner of the internet, apparently populated by a mixture of inexcusably rude idiots, folk who don't care, and moderators that don't, er, moderate.

the usual shouty  morons


Ladies and gentlemen, this is what we scientists call "a lie".

Sorry, what was it you were saying about shouty abusive f-wits?   ;D ;D ;D ;D

You need to go and have a chat with yourself, son.

Re: To go tubeless or stay tubed.
« Reply #72 on: January 17, 2021, 06:15:49 pm »
you and some others may perceive my posts as 'negative' but there is more than one viewpoint regarding the benefits  (which, if you bother  looking, I have described reasonably accurately just before being inexcusably insulted and abused).  If my comments  result in just one person who avoids a nasty accident or a problem on the road I would say that is a very good thing. 'Putting people off cycling?.. that is some weak ale indeed, isn't it? Forearmed is forewarned;  it surely has to be better than folk believing a load of tripe about putting a tube in being 'exactly the same' with tubeless and so forth; anyone who has done it knows just how  misleading that really is.

My view is that as long as there are shouty abusive f-wits on this forum, you will likely only hear one side of most discussions, because believe it or not most people prefer not to be abused and insulted for no good reason.  You know how there are pubs you prefer not to go in, because there are idiots inside who just want a fight? A bit like that.
Have you uncovered some stats for your tubeless is more dangerous theory?. I have had more rapid deflation’s with tubed tyres (probably dozens over the years), luckily none have resulted in injury. I have not had a single rapid deflation with tubeless. My two incidents that required inner tubes being fitted would I am sure have been instant deflation events with tubed. There were deep cuts right through that would have sliced the inner tube too. With tubeless the deflation was rapid but not instant. I would say it took probably 30 seconds or more to eject a large amount of gack all over my bike. There was no way it was going to seal but it did appear to slow things down. However I would be very reluctant to say tubeless is safer (or more dangerous for that matter) based on such a small sample size. I would want proper statistical evidence before I would proclaim either way.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Eating all the pies and drinking all the tea.
Re: To go tubeless or stay tubed.
« Reply #73 on: January 17, 2021, 06:23:46 pm »
Quote
I suppose the issue is that [Brucey's] posts might put people off trying tubeless and the vast majority of people once they have tried, prefer them. Not everyone, but the vast majority.
Actually, the person who's convinced me that tubeless isn't for me is... Flatus! Because his experience matches that of others I know who've tried tubeless: that you have to use it regularly (at least once a fortnight was the minimum frequency Flatus gave) to keep the sealant liquid and circulating. At the moment, due to lockdown, weather and, I'm afraid, laziness, that is barely happening. Once the weather gets warmer, hopefully the pandemic situation eases, and given the right physical and mental tuits, I'll be reappraising this decision, when the decisive factors will probably technical ones (compressor, sealant, etc).
Faster than a walk, slower than a train, often slightly higher than a person. (David Byrne)

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  • Mediocre polyglot.Scoutmaster and nudist
Re: To go tubeless or stay tubed.
« Reply #74 on: January 17, 2021, 06:35:08 pm »
You are welcome  :thumbsup:     Glad you were able to filter out the noise on this thread  ;)

The person who convinced me to give them a go was Bikey Mikey in 2014 IIRC,  you know him? He won the audax points championship 6 years in a row, including one year with a record breaking 33,000 of audax miles. He wasn't out to convince me, just stated his experiences.  Still, what would he know, eh.