Author Topic: The Male Gaze  (Read 4217 times)

cygnet

  • I'm part of the association
Re: The Male Gaze
« Reply #25 on: February 05, 2021, 11:33:44 pm »
Guinness WR records e.g. 100m records as male and female.

Though I'm not sure non-human objections to this practice are received/understood by their staff
Reasonably Inconsiderate

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: The Male Gaze
« Reply #26 on: February 05, 2021, 11:35:18 pm »
Guinness WR records e.g. 100m records as male and female.

Though I'm not sure non-human objections to this practice are received/understood by their staff

At least it's consistent. Is the current holder human? Cos I'm sure there must be some bird that can do 100m faster than a human of any gender can...

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Hot Flatus

  • Mediocre polyglot.Scoutmaster and nudist
Re: The Male Gaze
« Reply #27 on: February 05, 2021, 11:40:39 pm »
If you reverse the genders in Sam's sentence does it have the same impact on you?

"Although this is directed at women, I'm equally interested in the male response".

I'm male and it has no impact upon me emotionally.  Funnily enough, the word 'female' does, in so far as it is encumbered with the associations of what it is to be female. ie.inferior, weak etc etc etc etc.

fd3

Re: The Male Gaze
« Reply #28 on: February 05, 2021, 11:46:15 pm »
I didn't notice the "men/female" thing, but then the title has "male" in it.
(click to show/hide)
I see your point thought.  It's worth pointing out.
And we know the flag of love is from above/And we can force you to be free

Re: The Male gaze
« Reply #29 on: February 06, 2021, 12:48:11 am »

Although this is directed at men, I'm equally interested in the female response.

Women's response. Women. The word you're looking for is women.

This is something that *REALLY* pisses me off. The way women are often referred to as females. I can't hear someone say it without thinking of Ferengi from Star Trek.

Why is it in the sentence above it's men, but females? Why are women described using a term more from science, than every day language. When a woman wins a race, it's "First female to win race!" You never hear "x win's males race" or "X is the second male to win this race".

It's always Man/men. But female/females. It really bugs me.

Female is an adjective. Female what? female baboon? Female fruit fly? If you use the word female, you should include  the subject that you are using that adjective to describe.

One of the simplistic things people can do to be more inclusive, is to use better, more inclusive language. Calling women female(s) without that subject is really exclusionary.

That is the response from this woman.

J
When Ellen MacArthur completed her fantastic Vandee Globe circumnavigation and becam the second fastest ever to sail around the world1 it pissed me off that the British Media banged on about her being the fastest women to do so and rarely mentioned that only one other person had ever done it faster which I’m sure she was both more proud of and perhaps just a little pissed about. There are some competitions where the amount of testosterone in your body makes a material difference and it makes sense to separate the competitors, but there are other competitions where testosterone isn’t a factor and enlightened organisers don’t make it an issue. When then do the media feel they should do so? Bastards.
Sorting my life out, one shed at a time.

FifeingEejit

  • Not Small
Re: The Male Gaze
« Reply #30 on: February 06, 2021, 12:48:48 am »
I think the OP is really about the proprietorial attitude of some/many men towards women, and that they think it is OK to leer at women, stocking up the wankbank.
Thanks, I was trying to work that out.
I guess context is important (are you in a discotheque or cashing a check at a bank?) and I guess there's a grey area between eyeing someone up and objectifying them (and what you are perceived as doing).
Is this just a male gaze phenomenon?  I recognise that popular culture and advertising sells based on objectifying women (because objectifying men doesn't sell), so does that mean that women don't?
Cough, Diet Coke adverts in the 90s!

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Re: The Male Gaze
« Reply #31 on: February 06, 2021, 01:11:06 am »
I suspect a mod is jealous of your erudition and has been waiting for an excuse to punish you!
FWIW I consider you to be high in the top 10 of interesting contributors over there, not least for the "I'm an American - ask me anything" thread. Since my infrequent posts tend to be throwaway one-liners, with the occasional blurred photo thrown in, I really appreciate the amount of effort you put into yours.
I'd start a campaign of insurrection if I thought it would do any good!

I tend to think that as ian said they value a 'broad readership', and people like me are awkward. It's a commercial site: even certain words in posts get automatically linked to advertisers.

Being only human, I collect actual compliments like a crow collects shiny things,* but accepting them in public is problematic. Which is my wordy way of saying cheers. I plan on starting an American themed thread here, perhaps as soon as the day after tomorrow. (Checks time.) Tomorrow.

To fill in the blank in that avatar, and because I think sometimes it can be nice to see who we’re talking to, here’s a recent selfie:



I figured full frontal might put people off. Yes that’s lockdown hair. Surprise surprise, I don't actually wear a bowler. The hat is a 'gift' from my wife, meaning once I tried it on to keep my hair out of my eyes, she could see she wasn't getting it back.


* Do crows collect shiny objects? ”The trouble with this bit of corvid whimsy… is that when we do investigate it, and scientists have, we find there’s no empirical evidence to support it.”

Re: The Male Gaze
« Reply #32 on: February 06, 2021, 01:11:16 am »
That is the response from this woman.

Thank you. I'm glad you've brought this up, not least because I care about words, too.

Note first of all the thread title. (Which I see someone now has.) To end the OP with "female" is therefore somewhat balancing, don’t you think? I guess not, as it provoked your ire. And I'd done so well until that point, having not used "men" at all...

I started off with the colloquial "guys", followed by a self reprimand. This comes from my long experience on cycling forums, where despite that it is indeed mostly guys, I’ve never been comfortable with posts that start off that way, e.g., "Guys, what do you think of disc brakes." Outside of forums it depends who I'm talking to.

Parenthetically, the OP was specifically formulated for the CC audience, which like most, wouldn’t bat an eye about "guys" let alone "female". I bring it up because I was actually a titch nervous about posting a word-for-word reprint, not having read the room first. On the other hand, though it certainly hadn’t been my original plan, it would be interesting to see how the same post went over in two completely different forums. But that’s academic. In the end my decision came down to laziness. I had put fair amount of work in already, and didn’t want to do more.

In the perhaps unlikely event you want to see deeper inside my head, here's a view from a thread that also got locked. It's off topic to our discussion, but I thought it worth the link to show I have given gender politics a fair amount of thought.

Yet another thread I tried to get going across the road was about the difference between sex and gender. That too was binned.

Quote
One of the simplistic things people can do to be more inclusive, is to use better, more inclusive language. Calling women female(s) without that subject is really exclusionary.

Quote
Why are women described using a term more from science, than every day language…. It's always Man/men. But female/females.

Speaking of inclusiveness, and science, it's only when I started following trans issues that I realised how many new minefields have opened up. It began with four words (to be persnickety three and a duplicate): Trans Women Are Women. This is an excellent example of word choice being fraught, and veering far enough off topic that I'd better wrap things up.

In closing, I don't remember exactly what was in my head when I wrote that last sentence. Probably it was a combination of things: the 'male' in the title... the fact that I was mostly addressing men... that to reword it to say "I'm equally interested in the response of women", while also getting the job done, would rob the post of the sexual connotations of "the female response", which seemed more apt.

. . .

It appears a thread has been launched in my absence, initially partly about my absence then moving on to the larger issues concerning the treatment of women on the board. Devotees of forums might find it interesting.

Re: The Male Gaze
« Reply #33 on: February 06, 2021, 05:52:14 am »
We have not yet mentioned the juxtaposition of 'the men' with 'and the girls'..

Re: The Male Gaze
« Reply #34 on: February 06, 2021, 07:15:54 am »
FWIW, this phrase popped up in the news because Keira Knightley (whose parents are singlehandedly responsible for changing the spelling of Kiera for a whole generation) cited it as the reason she would not participate in any more sex scenes shot by men.  The cynic in me says that she is now an A-lister and in a position to pick and choose, like Emilia Clarke*, who publicly regrets the scenes in GoT* that made her famous.  Younger, newer actresses may not be as able to refuse.

*I've never watched it as I don't have pay TV, but I understand it's like a mashup of Lord of The Rings and softcore pr0n.
And Darkness and Decay and the Coronavirus held illimitable dominion over all.

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  • Mediocre polyglot.Scoutmaster and nudist
Re: The Male Gaze
« Reply #35 on: February 06, 2021, 07:28:53 am »

It appears a thread has been launched in my absence, initially partly about my absence then moving on to the larger issues concerning the treatment of women on the board. Much as I dislike giving them clicks, devotees of forums might find it interesting.

May I have a guess as to its content?  Drago braying out his ignorance in what he thinks is an articulate manner, a few hangers on grunting in agreement about how they can't even be sexist or racist anymore without the snowflakes getting offended, and then theclaud kicking them all into space with just three or four sentences? That was the traditional ordre du jour in that kind of thread on CC when I stopped reading it a few years ago.

Yeah, I think I'll leave it cheers.  Hope every one else will leave it too, as I'm sure the OP here doesn't want to start a cross-forum flame war.

Re: The Male Gaze
« Reply #36 on: February 06, 2021, 07:54:33 am »
I don’t like war (what is it good for). But is there still conflict between the two sites? I had thought those embers long since cooled.

As they say, I felt my ears burning. Pleasantly as it turned out. I thought it might be like going to your own funeral. If it took my suicide mission to force a conversation which actually survives being deleted, I’m happy to have obliged.

And yes, theclaud is still a demolitions expert.

on edit: I regret taking this OT, and hope it can now swerve around it

Ruthie

  • Her Majester
Re: The Male Gaze
« Reply #37 on: February 06, 2021, 08:35:10 am »
The male gaze is more broadly cast than you realize. It’s the reason male colleagues feel empowered to comment on how much weight I’m carrying or not carrying. It’s the standard by which my haircut is judged by male and female acquaintances (‘that bob does nothing for you’ is coded, y’know). It’s the beauty benchmarks, the ideals women are expected to conform to. It’s the reason young women get their lips done and their boobs done and their labia surgically altered. It’s being told by my best friend to come shopping with her so she can make over my wardrobe. It’s the phrase ‘mutton dressed as lamb’. It’s a hell of a lot more than whether people like to look at other people.

It’s labeling women as ‘ugly’ if they don’t conform. It’s ‘smile, love, it might never happen’. From complete strangers.

It’s less overt now than when I was young, but it’s still always there.
Milk please, no sugar.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: The Male Gaze
« Reply #38 on: February 06, 2021, 08:41:01 am »
I don’t know if crows collect shiny things in real life but male bowerbirds collect blue things to show off to the females. https://www.smh.com.au/entertainment/rhapsody-in-blue-the-architectural-manoeuvres-of-a-satin-bowerbird-20181112-h17s7l.html

I now return you to your regular programming.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: The Male Gaze
« Reply #39 on: February 06, 2021, 08:59:44 am »
The male gaze is more broadly cast than you realize...

My wife has provided a woman’s eye view for decades. Her entire work history is as the odd man [sic] out, first as a young qualified accountant overseeing adult men, then later diving deep into the T of STEM.

T42

  • *** fool in a hurry
Re: The Male Gaze
« Reply #40 on: February 06, 2021, 09:01:51 am »
This is something that *REALLY* pisses me off. The way women are often referred to as females.

With you there.  In French, to refer to a woman as a femelle - the equivalent of female - is an insult, as a result of which the FFCT, not daring to call women femmes, calls them féminines, which to me is just as misplaced.  Reading of an event attended by hommes et féminines makes me blench. Oh, and if it's an event exclusively for women you can bet the official jersey will be pink.

Re the "male gaze", I have heard that it's biologically pre-programmed: women check out faces whereas men check out genitals and then faces, even with other men. The eyes go there without conscious effort, and if the man is consciously trying to inhibit this any further interchange will be a bit strange as the tropism continues to exert itself. Be aware of it, get it over quickly and relax is possibly a better stratagem.
I've dusted all those old bottles and set them up straight.

TimC

  • Old blerk sometimes onabike.
Re: The Male Gaze
« Reply #41 on: February 06, 2021, 09:13:06 am »
Of course the 'male gaze' exists. At its simplest, and as mentioned by one or two above, it's a symptom of sexual attraction. On that level, its exists in every gender and sexuality. If it didn't, the human race would be in trouble. Well, more than it is already.

If the intention is to morph sexual attraction into an argument about sexual projection and objectification, why? There's plenty of material to fuel that discussion without engineering a hatefest about basic human instincts. As Ruthie says above, there is most definitely an issue about people feeling they have the right to judge others in public - and, again, that goes across all genders but is perhaps most egregious in men judging women.

To give a counter - and I know I'm not alone in this - in an environment in which women are the majority, the roles can be reversed. When societal power is given by numbers, it will be used. That sounds like a male teenager's wet dream, but believe me that's not necessarily the case.

The fact is people can be pretty horrible. But most people aren't.

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  • Mediocre polyglot.Scoutmaster and nudist
Re: The Male Gaze
« Reply #42 on: February 06, 2021, 09:28:31 am »
^  This made me think of  Brexiters blaming Remainers for the shitness of Brexit, or the Republicans blaming the left for the storming of the Capitol by Trump's fascists, or people blaming Jews for anti-semitism, in that it is casting the  dominant group as the victims in an imaginary scenario.

Besides there are more women than men in the UK, so I'm not really sure where that leaves your point.

Ruthie

  • Her Majester
Re: The Male Gaze
« Reply #43 on: February 06, 2021, 09:29:47 am »
https://www.oxfordreference.com/view/10.1093/oi/authority.20110803100128610

A definition that covers it, I think. The male gaze is something feminists have been talking about for years. And it sums up so much of my own experience, going right back even before puberty.
Milk please, no sugar.

Giraffe

  • I brake for Giraffes
Re: The Male Gaze
« Reply #44 on: February 06, 2021, 09:31:31 am »
We have not yet mentioned the juxtaposition of 'the men' with 'and the girls'..
Women tend to use 'girls' a lot - even the Goddess Denise Lewis does. Many years ago I was marshaling the tail-enders on a club run; two women were the last up a hill and, as they got near, I called out "come on girls". 19-yo daughter asserted that she was a woman and lare-40s mother said "speak for yourself".
I don't like 'men - ladies' - pairs should be logical:
men  women
boys  girls
etc.

I'll assume that a woman. for instance, is such unless there's something obvious such as in Drag Race, but there are very few ladies. The last one I noticed was Shilpa Shetty and that's quite a long time ago.
2x4: thick plank; 4x4: 2 of 'em.

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: The Male Gaze
« Reply #45 on: February 06, 2021, 09:47:29 am »
When societal power is given by numbers, it will be used.

That’s entirely the point. Societal power has long been used by men to keep women in their place - ‘their place’ being defined by how men perceive women, not by women deciding how they want to be perceived. No one is criticising you for finding women sexually attractive, that’s just hormones, but the oppression of women is a societal function not a biological one.

You may well be able to cite counter examples but they are notable for being exceptional. I’m sure you don’t need to be told that we don’t live in a matriarchal society.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: The Male Gaze
« Reply #46 on: February 06, 2021, 09:48:35 am »
We have not yet mentioned the juxtaposition of 'the men' with 'and the girls'..
Women tend to use 'girls' a lot - even the Goddess Denise Lewis does. Many years ago I was marshaling the tail-enders on a club run; two women were the last up a hill and, as they got near, I called out "come on girls". 19-yo daughter asserted that she was a woman and lare-40s mother said "speak for yourself".
I don't like 'men - ladies' - pairs should be logical:
men  women
boys  girls
etc.

In some settings where people continue to use guys even after it's been pointed out that it's not inclusive, I will start using girls to describe everyone "Ok girls, what's next?"

The male gaze is more broadly cast than you realize. It’s the reason male colleagues feel empowered to comment on how much weight I’m carrying or not carrying. It’s the standard by which my haircut is judged by male and female acquaintances (‘that bob does nothing for you’ is coded, y’know). It’s the beauty benchmarks, the ideals women are expected to conform to. It’s the reason young women get their lips done and their boobs done and their labia surgically altered. It’s being told by my best friend to come shopping with her so she can make over my wardrobe. It’s the phrase ‘mutton dressed as lamb’. It’s a hell of a lot more than whether people like to look at other people.

It’s labeling women as ‘ugly’ if they don’t conform. It’s ‘smile, love, it might never happen’. From complete strangers.

It’s less overt now than when I was young, but it’s still always there.

And it goes even further than just looks. A man is assertive, a woman is bossy. The same behaviour from both, yet it's acceptable for men. I have been called Scary. I have been called intimidating. I have been called formidable. In all cases on my work place appraisals. I now wear them as a badge of pride. Yes I've got tits, yes I have what passes for a brain, yes I am willing to make my viewpoint heard. No I will not apologise for this.

I've also been sat in meetings where I've put forth an idea, had it shot down, then 5 mins later had a male colleague* put forth exactly the same idea, and have it accepted. At one conference event, there was me and 3 other women sat in the front row while a couple of men were trying to get their slides to work. I gave a suggestion to them, but they didn't do it, a minute later the bloke behind us gave the same suggestion. "Ooh, good idea" said the men trying to make it work. "YOU'RE FUCKING KIDDING ME!" ejaculated the whole front row.

And of course there's the fact that if you ask men who talks most in meetings, they will often say it's women, as rather publicly was displayed this week by some Japanese bloke:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-55929404

Yet the scientific evidence shows time and again that it's men who speak most at meetings. They even interrupt more.

https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/stark-reality-men-dominate-talking-meetings-113112910.html

We need more men to shut the fuck up and listen to women. This applies to pretty much everything.

J

*note, male acceptable here as it's used as adjective to go with the word colleague. If I missed the word colleague out it would not be.
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Re: The Male Gaze
« Reply #47 on: February 06, 2021, 09:49:17 am »
Blimey, I hope that threads like this don’t become the norm around here, there’s far to many words that need reading for me to be able to follow the consensus opinion.  :o
Sorting my life out, one shed at a time.

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: The Male Gaze
« Reply #48 on: February 06, 2021, 09:54:10 am »
Besides there are more women than men in the UK, so I'm not really sure where that leaves your point.

I expect TimC is thinking of situations where a group of women pick on an isolated man, eg hen party vs stripper, but small-scale incidents like this don’t really tell us much about how the power structures of society operate.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

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  • Mediocre polyglot.Scoutmaster and nudist
Re: The Male Gaze
« Reply #49 on: February 06, 2021, 09:58:19 am »
Yes, I got that. I was making a wider point that in terms of society as a whole women do outnumber men, but the power balance is inversely proportionate.