Author Topic: The Male Gaze  (Read 14520 times)

TimC

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Re: The Male Gaze
« Reply #75 on: 06 February, 2021, 04:05:23 pm »
^ I was going to bring this up but couldn't be arsed. I don't think Virgin airlines consists of 85% female pilots and 15% male cabin crew, somehow. You've already rumbled it, but if you want to take about male gaze then aircrew is an excellent context.

It doesn't. At the time I left, about 10% of the pilots were female. Virgin is not a company that can take many ab-initio pilots; it's required to have an experience level that means the vast majority of its pilots have been in the business for at least 10 years before they will be employed by Virgin. So you can only pick from the existing pool, which is overwhelmingly white male. Nonetheless, Virgin had thrown its net wide, and was doing quite well at attracting the few women pilots that exist (along with BAME and a surprising mix of nationalities). To get more control over the pool, it had started a cadetship scheme. It isn't an unalloyed success; the problems of requiring a lot of experience meant that we had to find other airlines to incubate the new pilots until they could take up a role at Virgin, but it was coming on. I don't know whether it has survived the contraction. The same was true of engineers, but they started an apprenticeship scheme quite a few years ago. Now (or at least, when I left) around 25-30% of engineers are female.

Flatus, you can dis me all you like, but this is a fucking good company and it's trying to do it right.

Re: The Male Gaze
« Reply #76 on: 06 February, 2021, 04:10:41 pm »
No need to be touchy. I'm not having a crack at Virgin. It's incidental that it is Virgin. See my post in the wider context of this thread.

Re: The Male Gaze
« Reply #77 on: 06 February, 2021, 04:39:58 pm »
So, obviously I’m not normal, but this behaviour is something that I have heard of but never witnessed.

Male gaze is - amongst other things - what stops men from behaving badly towards women when there are other men (who they can't trust to be accomplices) around.

I don’t understand.  I think it’s because there are many different aspects to “the male gaze” which take on a number of different ... things? ... that I would view as being distinct different ... things?.  I’m struggling to identify the difference between the objectification of women and the male gaze - I think your post (quoted) explains that, but at that point I lose the sense of what “the male gaze” means.
simplicity, truth, equality, peace

Re: The Male Gaze
« Reply #78 on: 06 February, 2021, 04:42:00 pm »
If timc works in an 85% women environment, why would his experience be different if the bosses were men?  Unless he is one of the bosses and therefore didn’t interact with the 85% women group - but then I would think he wouldn’t have raised the point.
simplicity, truth, equality, peace

zigzag

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Re: The Male Gaze
« Reply #79 on: 06 February, 2021, 05:17:40 pm »
the duck face/fish gape of instagram - why do women do it?

is this the equivalent of the "male gaze"?



(this discussion is like treading on a thin ice, btw)

Re: The Male Gaze
« Reply #80 on: 06 February, 2021, 05:23:27 pm »
Trout pout?

Dunno. Up to them, and I doubt they are doing it just for you zigzag.

There is no female equivalent of the male gaze, which is sort of the whole point.

Cudzoziemiec

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Re: The Male Gaze
« Reply #81 on: 06 February, 2021, 05:25:00 pm »
Guys! Teams meeting; team A is one male person, team B is one male person and one woman. There is a break in connectivity and the male person in team A says "Have I lost you guys?" The funny thing being that the male person in team B is called Guy! (Which is as good a time as any to point out that "guy" has changed quite a bit in meaning since it ceased being simply a personal name – and the name has recovered as well.)
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Kim

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Re: The Male Gaze
« Reply #82 on: 06 February, 2021, 05:51:05 pm »
So, obviously I’m not normal, but this behaviour is something that I have heard of but never witnessed.

Male gaze is - amongst other things - what stops men from behaving badly towards women when there are other men (who they can't trust to be accomplices) around.

I don’t understand.  I think it’s because there are many different aspects to “the male gaze” which take on a number of different ... things? ... that I would view as being distinct different ... things?.  I’m struggling to identify the difference between the objectification of women and the male gaze - I think your post (quoted) explains that, but at that point I lose the sense of what “the male gaze” means.

I think I was being wrong.  The behaviour thing is more a Heisenberg effect of perceived social status.  Men will tend to behave in the presence of an authority figure (of any gender) or a man who is assumed to be 'owner' of the target of their bad behaviour, and tend to misbehave in a group of peers.  (The oiks shouting at cyclists thread should serve as a proxy for those who've never been perceived to be female, queer or disabled by random strangers.)

I think I'd generally read "the male gaze" as "the presumed heteronormative cissexist male perspective".  It's not about specific men doing things with their eyeballs, it's the patriarchal assumption that things (everything from women's appearance to the writing of films and the design of bicycles) are done for the benefit of the ISO standard man.

Women, of course, internalise and frequently police these standards amongst each other.  See every tedious discussion of dieting ever.

FifeingEejit

  • Not Small
Re: The Male Gaze
« Reply #83 on: 06 February, 2021, 06:00:40 pm »
Guys! Teams meeting; team A is one male person, team B is one male person and one woman. There is a break in connectivity and the male person in team A says "Have I lost you guys?" The funny thing being that the male person in team B is called Guy! (Which is as good a time as any to point out that "guy" has changed quite a bit in meaning since it ceased being simply a personal name – and the name has recovered as well.)

Guys are a trip hazard when getting out of a tent for a pish in the middle of the night.



Re: The Male Gaze
« Reply #84 on: 06 February, 2021, 06:05:00 pm »
Only for women. Men dont have to actually leave the tent.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: The Male Gaze
« Reply #85 on: 06 February, 2021, 06:32:09 pm »
German men have to, because of sitzpinkel.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: The Male Gaze
« Reply #86 on: 06 February, 2021, 06:36:29 pm »
It's not about specific men doing things with their eyeballs,
As you'd expect for YACF (I don't know if the same occurs on CycleChat) there are multiple discussions going on simultaneously: about eyeballs, assumptions, self-policing, language, and now pissing in tents. (No, I still haven't read that Conversation article, I've been reading about Guy and the other two, and correcting people's hyphenation and stuff. It's another fun Saturday which was supposed to be next Thursday.)
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: The Male Gaze
« Reply #87 on: 06 February, 2021, 06:51:11 pm »
German men have to, because of sitzpinkel.
A wide-mouthed Sunny Delight bottle was recommended to me.  Apparently, given sufficient skill, it is unnecessary to leave the sleeping bag.  And it doubles as a hot (well, 37°C) water bottle after use.
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

Re: The Male Gaze
« Reply #88 on: 06 February, 2021, 07:10:32 pm »
German men have to, because of sitzpinkel.
A wide-mouthed Sunny Delight bottle was recommended to me.  Apparently, given sufficient skill, it is unnecessary to leave the sleeping bag.  And it doubles as a hot (well, 37°C) water bottle after use.
Sitzpinkeln

Re: The Male Gaze
« Reply #89 on: 06 February, 2021, 07:12:20 pm »
I'm reminded of that anecdote you once told me, Mike, about pissing off Steve T at a party  ;D

Re: The Male Gaze
« Reply #90 on: 06 February, 2021, 07:13:04 pm »
German men have to, because of sitzpinkel.
A wide-mouthed Sunny Delight bottle was recommended to me.

Not by a close friend, I assume.

Graeme

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Re: The Male Gaze
« Reply #91 on: 06 February, 2021, 07:21:57 pm »
I remember reading about the 'bounce', a conscious effort to recognise your own behaviour and correct it immediately. It was in a particularly self-righteous bit of American charismatic Christian writing which I struggled through and then tried to forget. But the concept of being more intentional in my behaviour stuck. "Oh, I've done that thing again..." then self correct.

Coincidently twitter has highlighted the fallout of a re-issue of Mass Effect which will "dial down the butt shots". The tweeter I followed said it had been an intentional part of the programming (well, duh) but that it reduced the tension to comedy. Particular tweet saying the new edition a good thing. Obvs a vocal few think it is "common sense gone mad" or something.

Clicky

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Re: The Male Gaze
« Reply #92 on: 06 February, 2021, 07:25:27 pm »
Words change meaning. When I was at school gay meant jolly and cheerful. My twenty-something* children refer to groups of their female friends as guys - for them it now is just a collective noun for people.

As for dress and make up I wonder how much of this pressure comes from peers of the same gender. Certainly more effort seems to go into preparation when they are meeting with the guys (female) than a “date”. I am regularly advised that I look like a tramp and I am fairly sure I don’t notice what people are wearing unless it is quite extreme, but that could just be an age thing.

I do find the whole “dressing up” for work (male and female) odd, particularly the whole concept of “power dressing”.


* age rather than quantity

ian

Re: The Male Gaze
« Reply #93 on: 06 February, 2021, 08:29:20 pm »
People are always going to have to make judgements. It's how we choose our lovers, our friends, etc. We choose how to portray ourselves, the way we dress, the way we look, the way we act. It seems to be a modern thing that we're somehow supposed to be objective in this, but we're not and never will be. It's twee, but my overriding rule is treat other people in the way you'd like to be treated and if you've acted like a dick, own it. But don't apologize if you've nothing to apologize for.

I've probably worked for more women than men, which isn't that unusual in the fields I've worked in. Who knew, but they've been people like anyone else. My first female boss was awful, the second was great and introduced to me to the concept of the three-hour three-bottles lunch. Then there was Mad Mary, completely bald from alopecia, she'd normally wear a wig and halfway through every meal, when the server wasn't looking, she'd take it off. She also used to get free drinks by telling susceptible barmen 'yes, it's cancer, I don't have long.' Then the sweary posh women who mostly out-manned the men (and one of whom who now runs the group's favourite left-of-centre news periodical). Some of them have dressed up and wore makeup, some didn't. But I've had male bosses who were similarly diverse though, to be fair, none of them have worn makeup and heels. But who knows, I got a few decades left on the mothership clock.

Things change, the younger women I know call all groups guys. They just do. My wife is a girl. She calls all her friends girls. Ladies would be the sort of sarcasm I wouldn't survive. But the daytime-pyjama wearing marketing girls aboard the mothership were 'ladies, ian, ladies' even though they were about as far from being ladies as possible.

People will insist on being people, of course, with their quirks and foibles. It's what makes us interesting and worthwhile.

Re: The Male Gaze
« Reply #94 on: 06 February, 2021, 09:15:10 pm »
Whoops. Just logged on to the Readers Digest by mistake

ian

Re: The Male Gaze
« Reply #95 on: 06 February, 2021, 09:43:35 pm »
I think you meant to type Readers' Letters. hth.

Beardy

  • Shedist
Re: The Male Gaze
« Reply #96 on: 06 February, 2021, 09:48:27 pm »
The first women I had to work with* was shocking. It was a technical role and she wasn’t even a bit technical, her team had to carry her. She was also a very poor manager, but her promotion had been political and was thus she was not allowed to be seen to fail. We had no female techs at any levels at the time.

Since then I’ve worked with and for women at lots of different levels and I’d say they were equally able/inept proportionally to the men I’ve worked with/for be that technical, marketing or management.





*she was a shift team leader, so not my boss, but when her team were on days she thought she was in charge of everything
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Adam

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Re: The Male Gaze
« Reply #97 on: 06 February, 2021, 10:08:05 pm »
  Men will tend to behave in the presence of an authority figure (of any gender) or a man who is assumed to be 'owner' of the target of their bad behaviour, and tend to misbehave in a group of peers.  (The oiks shouting at cyclists thread should serve as a proxy for those who've never been perceived to be female, queer or disabled by random strangers.)


Very true.

About 10 years ago, I used to regularly take my then 17 year old daughter shopping.  I noticed a completely different attitude from young men walking past, depending if I was walking alongside her, or several feet behind her.  If I was next to her, I'd notice their eyes would quickly glance her up & down with a look at me, and that was it.  If it seemed like she was on her own, then the eyeballing was far more obvious along with more facial expressions, turning around for another look as they walked past and the occasional Neanderthal grunts.

As men don't have to endure the constant hassle of unwanted attention such as that, it's very difficult for a large proportion of men to ever see such things as a problem.
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Mr Larrington

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Re: The Male Gaze
« Reply #98 on: 06 February, 2021, 10:20:59 pm »
I think you meant to type Readers' Letters. hth.

Can't find the phrase “imagine my surprise” anywhere in the thread, though that could just be SMF's shockingly terrible search SCIENCE.

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Re: The Male Gaze
« Reply #99 on: 07 February, 2021, 12:23:35 am »
Men will ... tend to misbehave in a group of peers.
See, there you're using "men" to mean "mankind".
(not sure if it helps that my experience of this is mostly misbehaving schoolkids. They do misbehave in groups and the only reason this is worth raising is that you get the wolf-whistle/cat-call both from the boys as from the girls.  Is it the girls grow up, that society imposes its norms, or a younger generation with a different view?).
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