Author Topic: Happy pride month!  (Read 3413 times)

Cudzoziemiec

  • first to the top of the hill puts the kettle on
Re: Happy pride month!
« Reply #25 on: 05 June, 2021, 08:25:27 pm »
I'm with drossall on this. Why would you use pronouns in an email? When sending an email to someone, it very rarely even matters whether that person is male, female or indeed some other gender. I regularly send work emails to people whose gender I don't know. In my head I think of Alex in Singapore as being male (perhaps because IRL I know a couple of male Alexes but no female) the other bod in Singapore whose name is not English as being female, but I have no actual evidence either way and it's never mattered. Mariko in Chicago I think of as being female but I can't say I actually recognise the name. Emails to them all start "Hello/Hi [name],..." Whether they recognise my name as being male I don't know and don't think, in this context, it matters.

I do sometimes have to refer in emails to third persons whose identity I don't know, in which case I always use "they".
Riding a bike through a city is like navigating the collective neural pathways of a vast global mind.

ian

  • not a woman, not an american, not a vampire
Re: Happy pride month!
« Reply #26 on: 05 June, 2021, 08:53:17 pm »
I never really understood it. I never asked you for your pronouns, why are you telling me? I'm not about to use them.

Many of the people I work with are from Asia, I often have no idea what gender they are. Ignorance hasn't been an issue. I still want Parul to stop calling me Lan though.

I did get a letter from my ENT consultant today, he's very sure I'm a she. I'm going to send him a copy of the MRI he's scheduled.
Authoritarian Thought Leader, the Pol Pot of Powerpoint, the Stalin of Spreadsheets

hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: Happy pride month!
« Reply #27 on: 05 June, 2021, 08:58:14 pm »
The only 'Pride' flour that Sainsbury's seem to sell is the non-gendered Homepride.

Steph

  • Fast. Fast and bulbous. But fluffy.
Re: Happy pride month!
« Reply #28 on: 06 June, 2021, 10:44:15 am »
I do a lot of work on 'pronoun awareness', so here are a few reasons/considerations.

A trans person coming out at work often announces their pronouns. Making it a general thing leaves them feeling less isolated.

Many traditional UK names and diminutives are unclear as to gender--for example, fittingly, Kim. See also Charlie, Sam, Steph, Bobby, Hilary, Evelyn and so on. Get off your horse and particularly see Marion.

Many cultures do not have gendered names. How do you know who you are dealing with in such circumstances?

According to a Nigerian friend, many W African cultures will give the same names to a first-born child regardless of gender, as that is how their system works.

I have encountered many, many men from places like Italy, Belgium, etc, where the form of their first name is what we would consider feminine, e.g. Maria, Nicola. I spent a long time arguing with an HQ colleague that yes, I KNOW the first name is Nicola, but I am talking to HIM right now. So assumptions like "Not many women called Roger" are not necessarily safe.

Penultimately, it signals an inclusive culture in the workplace to colleagues and outsiders.

Finally, and most importantly, it REALLY pisses off the Murdoch rags, the Hate Mail, TERFs and other Nazis! What better reason could anyone ask?
Mae angen arnaf i byw, a fe fydda'i

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Happy pride month!
« Reply #29 on: 06 June, 2021, 10:57:05 am »
I'm with drossall on this. Why would you use pronouns in an email? When sending an email to someone, it very rarely even matters whether that person is male, female or indeed some other gender. I regularly send work emails to people whose gender I don't know. In my head I think of Alex in Singapore as being male (perhaps because IRL I know a couple of male Alexes but no female) the other bod in Singapore whose name is not English as being female, but I have no actual evidence either way and it's never mattered. Mariko in Chicago I think of as being female but I can't say I actually recognise the name. Emails to them all start "Hello/Hi [name],..." Whether they recognise my name as being male I don't know and don't think, in this context, it matters.

I do sometimes have to refer in emails to third persons whose identity I don't know, in which case I always use "they".

Dear $person,

can you help Cudzoziemiec out, he/she/they seem to be confused by some of the uses of email.

Yours...

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Happy pride month!
« Reply #30 on: 06 June, 2021, 11:01:47 am »
I never really understood it. I never asked you for your pronouns, why are you telling me? I'm not about to use them.

Many of the people I work with are from Asia, I often have no idea what gender they are. Ignorance hasn't been an issue. I still want Parul to stop calling me Lan though.

I did get a letter from my ENT consultant today, he's very sure I'm a she. I'm going to send him a copy of the MRI he's scheduled.

Anyone else confused that Ian and Cudzoziemiec both seem to not understand why it's useful to know the pronouns of those around you?

Despite all the exchanges I've had with Ian, she's never told me her pronouns, so I'm gonna just take a guess. I hope I don't misgender someone along the way. Cudzoziemiec also hasn't told me hers. So I'll guess here too.

See?

J

PS Yes I am intentionally misgendering to make a point, apologies for any offence.
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Cudzoziemiec

  • first to the top of the hill puts the kettle on
Re: Happy pride month!
« Reply #31 on: 06 June, 2021, 12:58:11 pm »
PS Yes I am intentionally misgendering to make a point, apologies for any offence.
I'm not entirely sure you've done it intentionally. I mean, you've probably just assumed I'm male* – I'm pretty sure I've never stated this to you. (I'm disregarding the possibility that you've recognized the word "cudzoziemiec" as being a masculine noun as it's quite unlikely.) Just like I've assumed "Alex" in Singapore is male. I also see him in mind sitting at a desk in a white short-sleeved shirt, no tie, smart black trousers, glasses. He's short and slim, in his early 40s and is quite a calm character... It's quite possible that Alex is actually a woman in her 20s, dressed in a brightly coloured sarong, tall and quite large, chain-smoking and drinking endless cups of coffee while juggling phone calls and shrieking at her colleagues. In either case, an email starting "Hello Alex" fits pretty well. "Alex" might actually be a Western name taken on solely for communication with foreigners at work. Or "Alex", "Mariko" and all the others could even be facets of a computer system with no human being being them. Or perhaps multiple personalities taken on by one overworked human droid (who never sleeps). For the purposes of my work, it really doesn't matter. And none of them have ever announced their pronouns or asked mine.

*Just as long as you haven't decided I'm "a" male!  ;)
Riding a bike through a city is like navigating the collective neural pathways of a vast global mind.

Steph

  • Fast. Fast and bulbous. But fluffy.
Re: Happy pride month!
« Reply #32 on: 06 June, 2021, 02:28:32 pm »
Back to Pride, this is what I wrote for my national 'Spectrum' network.


My first Pride with Spectrum was some time after I came out, and it was in London on a blisteringly hot day. We marched between a group of Gay Young Things wearing nothing but trainers and Speedo swimming trunks (which also served as their mobile phone holders) and a hide (look up the Old English meaning) of leather bears. Each of the latter wore enough leather, including peaked caps, that the collective acreage may have approached that other meaning of ‘hide’.

I had changed into a Civil Service Pride T-shirt in a certain burger chain’s toilets, where I was asked about my anatomy by another woman. The important aspect of her question wasn’t the wording, which was “I bet you found it a lot quicker when you still had a ***” but her tone. There was no aggression, no nastiness; just a rude joke between two women in the inevitable queue for the ladies’. It seemed a good omen for the rest of the event.

About five years after the parade started, our section began creeping forward, rather like that queue in the toilets, and things began to get lively. It is the crowd I remember, for the reception was overwhelmingly positive. This was a celebration, not a riot, and that celebration was indeed riotous. I stopped several times to share the joy with people crowded up to the barriers, especially one set with a Welsh flag next to their Rainbow one, I smiled and waved at the people telling me I was bound for Eternal Torment in the Burning Lake of Fire, telling one of them that they had certainly picked a nice day for it, and then we hit Regent Street. From a window, in the middle of acres of creamily affluent stonework, hung a single pride flag.

We arrived at the end, well after the leaders, and I found myself buzzing. I was surrounded by People Like Me, and even those who clearly were not still gave me acceptance. We gathered as a Spectrum group, for the heat of the sun had given us a thirst, and the Civil service Club was rounD the corner, and they had BEER!. In we went, and I headed once more for the ladies’.

A woman stood there with her arm across the door.

“Why do YOU want to come in here?”

My celebration of Pride turned into a protest just then, as Pride began as a protest. I squared myself up, murmured “Because I need a wee”, and she let me in.

Nothing at all on the scale of the original Stonewall events, but a reminder to me, after all the joy and acceptance of the day, that there remains a lot left to do.

Pride. My right to be me.

Mae angen arnaf i byw, a fe fydda'i

barakta

  • Bastard lovechild of Yomiko Readman and Johnny 5
Re: Happy pride month!
« Reply #33 on: 06 June, 2021, 03:20:49 pm »
I'm a cis bisexual woman and for me pronouns on name badges/labels or emails signatures are useful for:
1) People declaring the correct pronouns for themelves - so I don't have to worry that my assumptions based on names/appearance are correct or not. I've fucked that up more than once and it's hurtful to people. It helps binary trans people whose appearance may confuse others by being clear about 'correct' pronouns. By everyone doing it, it's not JUST trans and nonbinary people being singled out.
 
2) Letting me know individuals within an organisation (and maybe the organisation) is supportive of trans and nonbinary people. For me that tends to correlate with bi-friendliness or at least not-biphobia.

3) Seeing who gets all het up about pronoun labels - either through ignorance or transphobia ;).

I put my pronouns in my work sigs.

At 2nd job where we do disability assessments within a government framework we have to link our report to the official name on a DSA funding body document. We also need to have copies of students' medical and diagnostic reports, some going back many years into their childhoods.

On our paperwork for students, we have a preferred name field so people tell us what they want to be called. Tells us who is a Thomas and who is Tom. We can also identify which people with foreign names use an Anglicised forename, which of a set of names is appropriate or which name they like to be addressed by. Over 50% of our students are "BAME".

We have a pronouns field so people can tell us how they wish to be described (report is written in third person about student). By having the pronoun field, we're already showing trans and gender variant students that we're a bit clued up and will probably be kind to them about gender stuff.

Apart from the one field using the student's funding body name, we can use whatever names and pronouns the student wants us to use in the rest of the report. The preferred name + correct pronouns fields help us work out why there is inconsistency in names/pronouns on student's documentation.

We assessors and our admin will talk sensitively with students about what names/pronouns they want in the report. Many students haven't changed their paperwork-names/gender markers for various reasons (not knowing how, family pressure etc). Some students haven't finalised name/gender-marker decisions, which is also OK (one criticism from transphobes is that gender variant young people are rushed into transition/decisions - when actually just informally using names/pronouns regardless of inconsistency is allowing choice but not forcing big decisions).

And it's not that rare either. I reckon in the 9 months I've been quality assuring several hundred reports, that I've seen between 5 and 10 clearly trans/nonbinary etc students' reports. As I have to quality assure and check assessors have got students names and personal details right, being able to see "ah, probably trans* student, that's OK" is really helpful rather than "has my colleague copied and pasted stuff with wrong pronouns". Where possible, we usually indicate the "inconsistent name/pronouns" somewhere so the funding bodies know what's going on too.

By doing this, we're providing a better, kinder and safer service for trans, nonbinary and gender variant students. We're allowing them to be who they are right now with as little pressure as possible. Our focus is their disability support, but also minimising any potential distress (which is interlinked in many cases between gender and disability stuff).

We have also, well I say we, I did the assessment and report, but colleague fought the funding body: we got a change of support provider for a trans student who wished to minimise disclosure of their trans status (which was obvious from various things) to as few organisations as possible. Student  trusted Org 1 who was their named provider for one type of support, so wanted Org 1 not Org 2 for a second type of support. Initially the funding body tried to refuse saying it wasn't disability-related, but my former-lawyer colleague really fought the case for that student including that respecting their gender stuff was absolutely disability related but also the Right Thing To Do So Fucking Well Do It.

Because my team were aware trans stuff was important. Because our team did trans (and LGBT) awareness training. Because we talked to one another about "how can we be better" we could make small changes to our process and be 'alert' to things we could do to make trans people's lives a little easier... We talked anonymously about our experiences with trans students, what worked, what didn't, what we wished we'd done better in retrospect. That's like professional supervision really.

Just like we've talked about ways to make sure we don't fuck up people's "foreign names" which are initially more challenging for us to get right - but we can be better on. I showed new colleagues how to Google for name pronunciations and tricks I have for ensuring I spell things right every time (autocorrect lets you create macros, it's your friend).

For us, as disability practitioners considering 'access' as a basic right, being inclusive to trans* people is merely an extension of being a decent human being and working out 'what being decent' means to the people we basically serve. I am genuinely lucky to have such an excellent team to work with.

Beardy

  • What’s this do?
  • I’ve always wondered where this was
Re: Happy pride month!
« Reply #34 on: 06 June, 2021, 07:29:34 pm »
Is it acceptable to declare ‘whatever’ as in ‘My pronouns are: whatever’. I really don’t care, but that could be because it’s unlikely that anyone will get mine wrong (white middle class middle aged male with a gender obvious first name). I do mean that I don’t care though, but does that disrespect or belittle those do care?
Sorting my life out, one shed at a time.

barakta

  • Bastard lovechild of Yomiko Readman and Johnny 5
Re: Happy pride month!
« Reply #35 on: 06 June, 2021, 07:36:37 pm »
Beardy, I think it 'whatever' can be perceived in multiple ways - either you genuinely don't mind being she/they-ed, you're taking the piss out of pronouns or are trying to make it about you.

I think if you're not bothered and are happy with the gender assumed by your name, you're best just saying "he/him" or whatever pronouns are best.

I do know people who are agender who genuinely don't have a pronoun they prefer and like people to mix it up, which is surprisingly hard in practice.

Beardy

  • What’s this do?
  • I’ve always wondered where this was
Re: Happy pride month!
« Reply #36 on: 06 June, 2021, 08:37:42 pm »
I genuinely don’t care what people say about me especially if I’m not there to hear it, but I don’t want to cause upset or offence to anyone so if I need to announce my pronouns I’ll do,as,you suggest.
Sorting my life out, one shed at a time.

ian

  • not a woman, not an american, not a vampire
Re: Happy pride month!
« Reply #37 on: 07 June, 2021, 09:40:31 am »
I never really understood it. I never asked you for your pronouns, why are you telling me? I'm not about to use them.

Many of the people I work with are from Asia, I often have no idea what gender they are. Ignorance hasn't been an issue. I still want Parul to stop calling me Lan though.

I did get a letter from my ENT consultant today, he's very sure I'm a she. I'm going to send him a copy of the MRI he's scheduled.

Anyone else confused that Ian and Cudzoziemiec both seem to not understand why it's useful to know the pronouns of those around you?

Despite all the exchanges I've had with Ian, she's never told me her pronouns, so I'm gonna just take a guess. I hope I don't misgender someone along the way. Cudzoziemiec also hasn't told me hers. So I'll guess here too.

See?

PS Yes I am intentionally misgendering to make a point, apologies for any offence.

Yeah, but I kinda don't care if you misgender me, I can correct you if I'm that bothered because I'm a grown-up. Same with name pronunciations and stuff. How did we get to a place where everyone is so primed to be offended by literally everything?

And I don't care what gender you are. I figure it's the internet, everyone might be pretending anyway. I could just be a man to discourage those 'helpful' PMs. Though if someone wants to come and replace my Marathon Plus tyres, I'll wear lingerie for you.
Authoritarian Thought Leader, the Pol Pot of Powerpoint, the Stalin of Spreadsheets

Cudzoziemiec

  • first to the top of the hill puts the kettle on
Re: Happy pride month!
« Reply #38 on: 07 June, 2021, 10:32:26 am »
Actually, I think the key phrase there is "it's useful to know the pronouns of those around you." Yes, it is, but in the specific context of emails sent and received in the course of work (my work at least – yours and indeed ian's might be different), those people are neither "around you" nor are they ever addressed by anything other than their names. Nor, in my work, is there ever a need to refer to third persons (except, for me, in very specific circumstances in which the third person is totally anonymous).
Riding a bike through a city is like navigating the collective neural pathways of a vast global mind.

Cudzoziemiec

  • first to the top of the hill puts the kettle on
Re: Happy pride month!
« Reply #39 on: 07 June, 2021, 10:32:53 am »
Also, happy pride month. And another eleven to follow.
Riding a bike through a city is like navigating the collective neural pathways of a vast global mind.

Beardy

  • What’s this do?
  • I’ve always wondered where this was
Re: Happy pride month!
« Reply #40 on: 07 June, 2021, 10:48:12 am »

And I don't care what gender you are. I figure it's the internet, everyone might be pretending anyway. I could just be a man to discourage those 'helpful' PMs. Though if someone wants to come and replace my Marathon Plus tyres, I'll wear lingerie for you.
Aggggg. Pass the mind bleach quickly!

Because I don’t know you IRL I don’t know if knowing you IRL would improve or worsen the image. Aggggggg.
Sorting my life out, one shed at a time.

Beardy

  • What’s this do?
  • I’ve always wondered where this was
Re: Happy pride month!
« Reply #41 on: 07 June, 2021, 10:52:59 am »
[
Yeah, but I kinda don't care if you misgender me, I can correct you if I'm that bothered because I'm a grown-up. Same with name pronunciations and stuff. How did we get to a place where everyone is so primed to be offended by literally everything?
on a more serious note I can understand why some people could be sensitive to being misgendered especially when there is a possibility that it is being done with the intention of offending or is just bullying.
Sorting my life out, one shed at a time.

ravenbait

  • Someone's imaginary friend
  • Pudge controls the weather.
    • Someone's imaginary friend
Re: Happy pride month!
« Reply #42 on: 07 June, 2021, 11:07:59 am »
Is it acceptable to declare ‘whatever’ as in ‘My pronouns are: whatever’. I really don’t care, but that could be because it’s unlikely that anyone will get mine wrong (white middle class middle aged male with a gender obvious first name). I do mean that I don’t care though, but does that disrespect or belittle those do care?

I'm non-binary, and I don't like any of the pronouns. I have a marginal preference for they/them, but only because it implies something else.

I think the question is: if someone referred to you as "she" in company, would that bother you? Or, let's say you were on a conference call for work purposes, with people who had only ever previously communicated with you via email, and one of them referred to you as she, would you be upset? Would you need to correct them?

I've been referred to as "he" by people in professional relationships, simply because of my name, which they wouldn't do if they met me. I genuinely don't care, because it's as good as any, really (and also means they might take me more seriously). It bothers me more when people use the full version of my given name than it does to be given the "wrong" pronoun -- they're all wrong, so it's shades of grey, not black and white.

For those arguing that it makes no difference when your only interaction is email, if you can honestly say that you don't treat women differently from men (see, e.g. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/gender-inequality-man-woman-switch-names-week-martin-schneider-nicky-knacks-pay-gap-a7622201.html ), and you're never going to meet or refer to them, then what you do inside your head probably doesn't matter. But I know that whenever I've encountered someone with an ambiguous name, they've appreciated me clarifying how they identify.

Quote from: ian
How did we get to a place where everyone is so primed to be offended by literally everything?

I find it helpful if I think about it as proactive consideration rather than fear of offending. I wouldn't be offended if you misgendered me because current gender models don't matter to me and it's private anyway, but some people have had to fight hard, for years, for recognition of who they are. They've been traumatised and exhausted by denial and erasure. Making the world that bit more welcoming takes almost no effort and is just a kind and compassionate thing to do to avoid hurting people who have suffered enough hurt already.

Part of the reason we have more awareness and acceptance of the different ways of being as a human is because we've pushed back (Pride is one example of pushing back) against the systematic erasure of those ways of being. Humans aren't suddenly more queer than they used to be; people have fought for recognition. You might classify insisting on that recognition that as "be[ing] offended", but that only makes me think you're in the privileged position of never having to think about it or fight against prejudice about the validity of your existence.

Sam
https://ravenbait.com
"Created something? Hah! But that would be irresponsible! And unethical! I would never, ever make... more than one."

ian

  • not a woman, not an american, not a vampire
Re: Happy pride month!
« Reply #43 on: 07 June, 2021, 11:13:31 am »
[
Yeah, but I kinda don't care if you misgender me, I can correct you if I'm that bothered because I'm a grown-up. Same with name pronunciations and stuff. How did we get to a place where everyone is so primed to be offended by literally everything?
on a more serious note I can understand why some people could be sensitive to being misgendered especially when there is a possibility that it is being done with the intention of offending or is just bullying.

Indeed, but deliberately disrespecting someone's wishes is different. I don't feel any particular need to know the gender, sexual orientation, or skin colour of anyone I'm emailing. It's not really germane to that email.

Reminds me that I used to have to deal with a woman who had a signature to her emails apologising for the theft of Native American lands (really, it's a thing). An actual Native American did point out that while it was a nice sentiment, she wasn't offering to give it back, was she?
Authoritarian Thought Leader, the Pol Pot of Powerpoint, the Stalin of Spreadsheets

Cudzoziemiec

  • first to the top of the hill puts the kettle on
Re: Happy pride month!
« Reply #44 on: 07 June, 2021, 12:45:19 pm »
For those arguing that it makes no difference when your only interaction is email, if you can honestly say that you don't treat women differently from men (see, e.g. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/gender-inequality-man-woman-switch-names-week-martin-schneider-nicky-knacks-pay-gap-a7622201.html ), and you're never going to meet or refer to them, then what you do inside your head probably doesn't matter.
Works in both directions. As in, I reckon one of the reasons I've decided in my head the aforementioned Alex is a man is from the style in which those emails are written.
Riding a bike through a city is like navigating the collective neural pathways of a vast global mind.

Re: Happy pride month!
« Reply #45 on: 07 June, 2021, 01:38:31 pm »
FWIW, I am informed by a co-worker that Sikh given names, like hers, are all unisex.  So a pronoun declaration is definitely useful there.  And if Sikhs have to do it, then everyone else should probably do it or else it looks like we're singling them out for having funny foreign names.
And Darkness and Decay and the Coronavirus held illimitable dominion over all.

woollypigs

  • Mr Peli
    • woollypigs
Re: Happy pride month!
« Reply #46 on: 07 June, 2021, 04:34:20 pm »
The company I work for got many "typical" male/female first names who isn't, to help it along we got many with the same names. So therefore it does help with finding the right "Alex" if you got the pronoun sorted out, when you are pointing someone towards Alex in department Y.
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Regulator

  • That's Councillor Regulator to you...
Re: Happy pride month!
« Reply #47 on: 07 June, 2021, 04:39:59 pm »
Why do people feel it necessary to tell LGBTIQ+ people what their views are on pronouns in a Pride Month thread?   
Quote from: clarion
I completely agree with Reg.

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quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Happy pride month!
« Reply #48 on: 07 June, 2021, 04:50:42 pm »
Why do people feel it necessary to tell LGBTIQ+ people what their views are on pronouns in a Pride Month thread?

I dunno, I'm just waiting to for someone to suggest this should be moved to POBI...

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

ian

  • not a woman, not an american, not a vampire
Re: Happy pride month!
« Reply #49 on: 07 June, 2021, 05:30:32 pm »
Because it's the internet. You can get your own version by yanking the cables out of your router.
Authoritarian Thought Leader, the Pol Pot of Powerpoint, the Stalin of Spreadsheets