Author Topic: WAYPOINTS  (Read 3024 times)

WAYPOINTS
« on: 29 July, 2021, 01:50:21 pm »
How do you determine the number of Waypoints on an Event ?       I have had a frozen screen after about 17hrs ((25% battery still remaining) on my last two Events (400 + 300k)     It was suggested that I split the route into two halves in future, as the Organisers had exceeded the AUK Limit of 500 waypoints.   I re-plotted the 400 on Strava and managed to use just 20 points, so I don’t see how plotting points can equate to Waypoints.   Has anyone got the answer please ?

Re: WAYPOINTS
« Reply #1 on: 29 July, 2021, 02:06:25 pm »
It might help if you tell us which gps device you are using.
Clever enough to know I'm not clever enough.

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: WAYPOINTS
« Reply #2 on: 29 July, 2021, 02:34:50 pm »
I presume you mean trackpoints rather than waypoints.

You can easily downsample the GPX file into something your device can handle using this handy online app, created by a yacfer:
https://simple-gpx.herokuapp.com

The 10 metres accuracy setting should give perfectly usable results.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Re: WAYPOINTS
« Reply #3 on: 29 July, 2021, 02:37:58 pm »
Waypoints are not the clicks you put on the route...

Where did you download the routes from? Were they Routes or Tracks?

The AUK limit is a bit arbitary- it's based on quite elderly devices.

(And citoyen- he might mean waypoints- one of the RWGPS options is to save cue instructions as waypoints)

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: WAYPOINTS
« Reply #4 on: 29 July, 2021, 02:44:06 pm »
(And citoyen- he might mean waypoints- one of the RWGPS options is to save cue instructions as waypoints)

Fair enough. But even so, it sounds unlikely you'd end up with more than 500 waypoints, even for a 400km ride. Unless it's a very convoluted route.

Either way, bunging the file into simple-gpx should be enough to turn it into something that works on most devices.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Re: WAYPOINTS
« Reply #5 on: 29 July, 2021, 02:56:08 pm »
Thanks for the prompt replies.    I am using a Wahoo Roam.  The Organiser of the 300k said that my (and others) problems with downloading from the AUK Calendar was caused by his Waypoints exceeding AUK’s limit.   

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: WAYPOINTS
« Reply #6 on: 29 July, 2021, 03:46:15 pm »
It sounds like the organiser is a bit confused. The limit on GPX files for downloading from the calendar page is 250kb. It doesn't matter how many waypoints they contain as long as they're inside that file size limit. (It wouldn't be possible for the org to upload it to the AUK site if it's over the limit.)

AIUI, the limit on waypoints/trackpoints/whatever only applies when you're uploading a track for validation by GPS. (But I could be wrong on this - I'm working from memory, which is never reliable in my case.)
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Re: WAYPOINTS
« Reply #7 on: 29 July, 2021, 05:00:11 pm »
Thank you for this further insight.    Others on the 300k did not, as far as I’m aware, get frozen screens,  even though they  also had to download the GPX from the Organiser’s final email.       Wahoo suggested another alternative Cause was that my Roam had the whole of Europe’s Maps downloaded, and suggested I delete them all and just load England and Wales. This doubled my Memory from 960MB to 2 GB.     From what you have said, I am hoping that this increase of memory will sort my problem.   But I will still plot a 2nd route for the 2nd half in future, just to be on the safe side.    Many thanks again to you all, for your advice

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: WAYPOINTS
« Reply #8 on: 29 July, 2021, 07:50:54 pm »
Terminology note:

Waypoint: A marker at a set of coordinates, with a name and a little icon, maybe a proximity alarm.
Trackpoint: The dots that make up a Track (usually[1] a recorded path travelled).
Routepoint: A Waypoint or map feature that makes up a Route (a planned path that you intend to follow).
POI: A marker from a separate file you don't normally interact with that's rendered on the map to show you where, eg. petrol stations are.

I assume Courses (a proprietary Garmin thing that isn't part of the GPX standard) have Coursepoints, which are analogous to Routepoints?


[1] FCVO 'usually'.  These days people routinely generate Tracks in order to follow them, as devices can handle a lot more points in a Track than in a Route.

Re: WAYPOINTS
« Reply #9 on: 29 July, 2021, 09:51:10 pm »
a proprietary Garmin thing that isn't part of the GPX standard) have Coursepoints

(off topic grumble) GPX having separate data types for routepoints and trackpoints already makes it a codification of the UI of Garmins of that era rather than an agnostic standard.

Re: WAYPOINTS
« Reply #10 on: 30 July, 2021, 11:06:37 am »
Which event was it, and/ or do you have a link to the GPX you had a problem with?  The organiser will have provided a track and/or route within the GPX. Knowing which, will affect the advice to be offered / taken.

I’m the author of https://simple-gpx.herokuapp.com/ , but it’s designed to work on tracks only. If it’s too many route points (which it sounds like it is). That’s a different problem which my tool won’t fix.

Re: WAYPOINTS
« Reply #11 on: 30 July, 2021, 03:11:57 pm »
Dawntsey Dawdle 400 + Vale of Evesham 300.      I will try to send you the links you ask for if you cannot access them from the AUK Calender.     

Re: WAYPOINTS
« Reply #12 on: 31 July, 2021, 12:14:07 pm »
No link to GPX on the calendar page

Re: WAYPOINTS
« Reply #13 on: 31 July, 2021, 12:41:45 pm »
You are right.  DD was attached to email.   But 10/7 Vale of Evesham 300 is still showing GPX on my calendar

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: WAYPOINTS
« Reply #14 on: 31 July, 2021, 06:24:52 pm »
I had a look at the Vale of Evesham 300 gpx file...

The file has been created in plotaroute.com

fboab was spot on - it contains the turn-by-turn instructions as waypoints, as well as all the trackpoints.

The waypoints section of the file runs from line 6 to line 1314, and each waypoint takes up 7 lines, so I make that 187 waypoints - considerably below the supposed 500 threshold. But you don't need the turn-by-turn instructions anyway if you're using a Wahoo Roam - it will generate its own instructions.

If you open the file in a text editor, you can easily strip out all the waypoints. Then you could put it through Phil's app to downsample it, if that's still necessary (this would strip out the timestamps and elevation data, leaving just the lat & long).
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Re: WAYPOINTS
« Reply #15 on: 31 July, 2021, 08:08:27 pm »
Many thanks 👍.     I’ve learnt  something from every reply.  YACF is still a marvellous resource

frankly frankie

  • I kid you not
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Re: WAYPOINTS
« Reply #16 on: 07 August, 2021, 05:54:02 pm »
Terminology note:

Waypoint: A marker at a set of coordinates, with a name and a little icon, maybe a proximity alarm.
Trackpoint: The dots that make up a Track (usually[1] a recorded path travelled).
Routepoint: A Waypoint or map feature that makes up a Route (a planned path that you intend to follow).
POI: A marker from a separate file you don't normally interact with that's rendered on the map to show you where, eg. petrol stations are.

I assume Courses (a proprietary Garmin thing that isn't part of the GPX standard) have Coursepoints, which are analogous to Routepoints?

[1] FCVO 'usually'.  These days people routinely generate Tracks in order to follow them, as devices can handle a lot more points in a Track than in a Route.

To expand on the above.
Coursepoints - software (planners) that can handle Courses and Coursepoints if asked to export as GPX (which does not accept those constructs) will, IME, convert Course to Track and Coursepoint to Waypoint.

Waypoint: A oair of coordinates wrapped in code that says "this is a standalone Waypoint".  By convention Waypoints are information-rich, having a Name, often a marker Symbol, and various information fields such as, for example, road names (for a crossroads) or a phone number (for a hotel).  All this information may or may not be accessible on your GPS.

Routepoint: (Commonly also called a Viapoint) a uniquely-named pair of coordinates wrapped in code that says "this point is part of a Route".  Begs the question of "what is a Route?" which does not actually have a straightforwardd answer at this stage, but NB my use of Uppercase to distinguish "Route" from "route" - which latter as every fule kno is simply a way of getting from A to B.  (NB that this is not, generally speaking, what cyclists do - they mostly ride from A to A.)  By convention the Routepoints that make up a Route are spaced apart by 500m or more, on average - but this is just a convention and not a rule.  There's a lot more to be said about Routes but we are not interested in Route files here.

Trackpoint: A pair of coordinates wrapped in code that says "this point is part of a Track".  Begs the question of "what is a Track" and traditionally it is a 'breadcrumb trail' of recorded progress through space and time - known as a "Tracklog" - but this primary purpose has been somewhat hi-jacked over recent years, so that a Track could also now be drawn in software then used as a 'Route-Lite' (which is what cyclists most commonly do) - pretty much like a highlighter line drawn on a paper map. 
Trackpoints can be very minimalist - for example they are not individually named (unlike Routepoints) - although if they are part of a Tracklog they will include Elevation and Timestamp information at least (again unlike Routepoints), and often with modern GPSs a heap of other metrics such as heart rate and power etc.  By convention the Trackpoints that make up a Track (or Tracklog) are closely spaced, less than 100m on average and often much less - but this is just a convention and not a rule.  Because of the extra metrics recorded, and the (over-)close point spacing, modern Tracklogs in GPX form can be very large files (they are smaller as FIT which is generally a superior - but less universal - format).

A GPX file can contain any number, and any combination, of Waypoints, Routes and Tracks.  However not all software - and certainly not all GPSs - can handle all the variants of 'combined' files.  In addition there are various limits on point counts, most of which are now historical in nature and not practical limits for users of modern GPSs.  The limits are therfore more of interest to Organisers who seek to provide files of maximum compatibility across a range of devices.  Even so, the old 500 limit (which is for Trackpoints per Track) is only going to be relevant to a vanishingly-small number of riders, who probably know who they are and how to deal with it.  The most important thing for Organisers IMO, is to know that they should be providing a Track file (and not a Route or combined file - tho Track+Waypoints can be good).  Unfortunately many Orgs farm the provision off to RWGPS ("download your GPX from this URL") and then it is all too easy for the unwary user to export the wrong type of file, or at least a sub-optimal one.

I would say that any GPS model introduced in or after 2009 (when the Etrex 20/30 was introduced) has enough practical capacity that limits need not be a consideration.  Unfortunately modern Planners have also become a bit bloated, and liable to export over-large files.  It is worth bearing in mind that some GPSs (Etrex 20/30 series) do have a Trackpoint limit of 10,000 (per Track) and I have seen plenty of files generated by RWGPS (to name but one) that easily exceed this over a longer distance.  Your options then are to split the Track, or simplify it (Phil's site is good).  NB that in the case of a GPS, error messages are scant and the first you know about it not being happy may well be halfway round a 400 ...
when you're dead you're done, so let the good times roll

Re: WAYPOINTS
« Reply #17 on: 08 August, 2021, 02:51:28 am »
To comment on the above, in a file for an audax, there may be a waypoint at each control, a routepoint at each junction, and sufficient trackpoints between to define the shape of the twists and turns along the road.

Re: WAYPOINTS
« Reply #18 on: 08 August, 2021, 08:38:21 am »
GPX files for audaxes and similar are almost always a big list of track points that may or may not also include waypoints for controls.

Route points are a relic of the time when you had to manually enter routes into handheld GPS devices, so you'd only do major turns etc. The online planners don't export these.

Occasionally you'll see a track made entirely out of hundreds of route points.

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: WAYPOINTS
« Reply #19 on: 08 August, 2021, 10:04:57 am »
Waypoint: A oair of coordinates wrapped in code that says "this is a Waypoint".  By convention Waypoints are information-rich, having a Name, often a marker Symbol, and various information fields such as, for example, road names (for a crossroads) or a phone number (for a hotel).  All this information may or may not be accessible on your GPS.

Garmin devices generally seem good at understanding Waypoints (or Coursepoints, which seem to be functionally identical afaict). However, I did discover one annoying glitch recently...

For the Way to the Sea 200, the organiser sent out a GPX file containing a Track, plus Waypoints to mark the controls - very useful for me, as I was using the e-brevet.

My usual method these days for getting third-party GPX files such as this onto my device (Edge Explore) is to upload the file to Garmin Connect, then I can download it to the device wirelessly from my phone as and when I need it.

Unfortunately, it was only once I was on the ride that I realised Garmin Connect had not imported the Waypoints when I uploaded the file, only the Track.  :facepalm:

Oh well, lesson learned. It's easy enough to copy the file to the device the old-fashioned way (connect device to computer, drag and drop file into New Files folder) and this preserves the Waypoints.

You can add Coursepoints to a Course once it is on Garmin Connect, but that's a lot of faff, and risks errors since you have to place them manually (you need to zoom right in on the map to make sure they're placed accurately because GC won't let you move them once placed  >:( ). (Also, if you "download (GPX)" from Garmin Connect, it doesn't include the Coursepoints/Waypoints.  >:( )

One thing I think this highlights is that (aiui) Waypoints/Coursepoints are really meant to function as points of interest that are independent from the navigation side of things. So RWGPS creating turn-by-turn instructions as Waypoints is just plain WRONG.

Besides, as already noted, many devices these days (including the OP's Wahoo) create their own turn-by-turn instructions ad hoc, so embedding them in the file (whether as Waypoints or Routepoints) is redundant. My old Edge 510 didn't have maps or turn-by-turn instructions, and didn't support Routepoints, so using it for navigation really was a case of following the breadcrumb trail.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: WAYPOINTS
« Reply #20 on: 08 August, 2021, 10:50:12 am »
I assume Courses (a proprietary Garmin thing that isn't part of the GPX standard) have Coursepoints, which are analogous to Routepoints?

As FF says, Coursepoints are analogous to Waypoints. I suspect the root of the problem with sites like RWGPS is that the site creators don't understand the difference between Routepoints and Waypoints.

Bikehike allows you to add Coursepoints (which can be navigational or POI) and these are all exported as Waypoints. If you export a "GPX route" from Bikehike rather than a "GPX track", all the Trackpoints are simply converted to Routepoints...  :sick:
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Re: WAYPOINTS
« Reply #21 on: 08 August, 2021, 01:56:52 pm »
Courses and course points are more of a Garmin Edge thing.  The course points were generally added to indicate turns, food stops, water, Hors Category climbs. Think there were about 12 different types of course points in Training Centre. You couldn’t make up your own course points. We are talking 2004 ish when I had my Edge 305.

On the Edge 305 the course points would trigger an alert with the symbol and fixed text description such as turn right. The alert was just top of screen so you could still see most the course line plotted on the screen.

The nearest on etrex is waypoints with proximity alarms I suppose. But waypoints can be anything and don’t have to be on the actual track.