LEL costs and entry price

[abc123]

There probably won’t be a 100 hour group in 2025. Most of the riders in this group have been great, and in Anco we’ve had a first finisher who encapsulated our values totally. But we have had enough instances of entitled and reckless behaviour for me to put a stop to it.

That's a pity, I had no idea there had been such problems. I had a nice run in the 100 hour group, riding with quite a selection of different groups and individuals over the course of the event. I didn't encounter any drama and everyone I rode with was friendly and seemed to be enjoying the ride as much as I was. I also observed how people were behaving at the controls, and all the people I rode with seemed to go out of their way to chat with the volunteers and express their thanks for the assistance provided.
Perhaps I wasn't close enough to the "racing" end of the field. There was definitely some fetishisation of fast times and finishing positions online, which I don't like to see creeping into Audax. I've done a lot of racing, but one of the things I really value about Audax is the fact that it is not a race.
I am not convinced that removing the 100 hour group will stop people from behaving inappropriately. I suspect you will just have the same entitled and reckless people spread more widely through the field, possibly causing more unpleasantness as a result!

[Wycombewheeler]

Presumably the premium pricing would also have to be applied to the 100 hour time limit group? If so, I assume all 100 hour entries would be early starts and premium priced, because there would be little point in entering the 100 hour time limit and opting for a cheaper late start (rather than just picking a cheaper 125 hour start).

There probably won’t be a 100 hour group in 2025. Most of the riders in this group have been great, and in Anco we’ve had a first finisher who encapsulated our values totally. But we have had enough instances of entitled and reckless behaviour for me to put a stop to it.

I'm not sure removing the 100 hour group will resolve this, the same bad actors will enter and will just be spread among the regular start waves.

edit

what abc123 said ^^^^^^^^

Although finishing first and getting a good time has always been a niche thing on PBP, so is this really creeping into audax or has it just always been there but only in these large  high profile events?

[alwyn]

Oh, for sure, the very limited poor behaviour is not limited to the 100 hour group, but it is disproportionately there. Same with riders with support vehicles, which I’m also likely to put a stop to. In fact the support vehicles are our biggest source of poor behaviour, most of which is just mildly shitty. However one rider/supporter couple were just outrageous in their conduct to a fellow rider and are also banned from the event as a result.

[The Bonk]

How many fully paid DNS were there on the last edition?

[alwyn]

I thought it was an amazing event and incredible value, largely because of the army of volunteers.

HOWEVER… The perspective of “paid staff” vs “volunteer” activities seems extremely rosy (frankly, unrealistic). My wife and kids volunteered for a whole week.  They scrubbed a lot of pots, mopped acres of floors and the volunteers cleaned countless bathrooms. If you’re going to imply that part of the cost is so that volunteers don’t have to do such tasks, it might be worth ensuring they really don’t…

Having some knowledge of the situation and the (frankly brilliant) volunteers referred to here, I'll point out that our control was let down by the cleaners planned for the final 24 hours and the volunteer team stepped up to do a superb job to cover for this. It won't happen in 2025. I'm also not sure that we can claim to entirely eliminate the less pleasant jobs for volunteers, particularly during the quieter periods it would surely make sense for some volunteer cleaning instead of hiring cleaners to be on standby for hours on end.

Very much this. In many ways Dod had the biggest challenge faced by any of the controllers and Dod and the team handled them impeccably. Happily the control have declined our booking for 25, which has prompted us to find a new venue which is much, much better. Their loss and our gain.

[Pip]

Good evening Danial, I've seen a lot of changes since my first LEL in 2005. Every evolution has attempted to improve upon the previous event. The preparation, imagination and thought that goes into making the ride work as well as it can is palpable.

I am not a rich man, but cannot remember how much the entry fee was in 2005, 2009, 2013, 2017 and 2022. It is almost an irrelevance considering the wonderful experience of the ride, especially taking into account what is on now on offer.

It will cost however much it costs, but I am certain that the way forward is keeping the game-plan as simple as possible whilst striving to learn from the previous edition.

[Can’t swim won’t tri]

[quote author=alwyn link=topic=126097.msg2819408#msg2819408 date=1687282131

Very much this. In many ways Dod had the biggest challenge faced by any of the controllers and Dod and the team handled them impeccibly. Happily the control have declined our booking for 25, which has prompted to find a new venue which is much, much better. Their loss and our gain.
[/quote]

Glad to hear this, and @dod’s favourite volunteers will be back in 2025, pot scrubbing or not!

[alwyn]

How many fully paid DNS were there on the last edition?

About 300. The event coincided with the last big wave of covid, which was just tailing off as the event started. No shows don’t rally save us any money as by then everything is bought and paid for. And I wish I could state consistently that we’d get a similar number of DNS. But in 2013 almost everyone turned up - we had around 20 DNS and a 20% DNF.

[bhoot]

But in 2013 almost everyone turned up - we had around 20 DNS and a 20% DNF.

As a 2013 rider, obviously we did the "easy" one!

[Redlight]

Frankly, in a civilized world, nobody should have to clean a toilet after somebody else has used it.  If you can't use a toilet brush, you're certainly not safe to climb back on your bike.  If you WON'T use one, know you are despised!

You would be surprised - probably repelled - at how disgusting some of the riders on LEL (and probably other long events) can be. Last year we had cleaners at the control I was at but they were not there 24/7 and volunteers still spent a great deal of time cleaning up the shower rooms and toilets, dealing with all kinds of leave-behinds, including soiled shorts and used sanitary towels. In one instance, someone had left the disabled shower room in such a state that I refused to let the school cleaners deal with and did it myself. They are not paid enough to put up with that kind of (actual) shit.

One can understand the occasional (and more frequent towards the end of the week) incidences of rudeness as being down to tiredness, but the way some of the riders behaved was beyond the pale, in my view.

[CrazyEnglishTriathlete]

On PBP this year the earlier slots were booked first.  I must admit to a preference to an earlier start on PBP because I don't like evening starts, but on LEL I would be less precious about start time. 

[Bobby]

I rode in 2009 and 2013, and I like the idea of riding again - the price increase does not personally put me off, i've seen the event grow and know it's still good value for money

Partly I'm OK with the extra money simply because (mainly via this forum, but also from riding other events & talking to people), I have some appreciation of magnitude of the effort/costs that go in to the organising of such a behemoth.  I wonder if that's at all clear to 'average Joe that may be pulled into AUK via LEL'?  how would they know?  perhaps the website can put out some facts & figures to inspire/amaze or just put in context what's going on?

- Size of teams at each control?
- Number of slices of bread consumed?
- Miles driven by the outriders & bag drop van etc?
- Number of county council meetings?  volume of risk assessment paperwork?
- how many litres of bleach used to clean up after us all ?
- Storage costs for beds etc?

I'm not sure what, but you get the point... it's vast - and vastness costs money to make happen... we're well past 100 riders getting TLC from volunteers...

[coops456]

...Great Easton is in a food desert. We may yet ditch GE anyway because reasons but that would likely shave only £10-£15 off the price.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! <sob> 

[Graeme]

Late to the conversation as always. I'd be willing to pay more, and also to volunteer. I was impressed with Wobbly helping at the helpdesk with me, then drinking a bunch of cider, then riding. And drinking cider all the way round. An inspiration. I loved volunteering at the start and getting to see almost everyone who took part. I'd like to do the same again - on the Helpdesk - but this time ride. I've been encouraged by the idea of a new route.

Bless you for running this again.
G.

[tonyh]

Bless you for running this again.

Plus several thousand!

[alwyn]

Late to the conversation as always. I'd be willing to pay more, and also to volunteer. I was impressed with Wobbly helping at the helpdesk with me, then drinking a bunch of cider, then riding. And drinking cider all the way round. An inspiration. I loved volunteering at the start and getting to see almost everyone who took part. I'd like to do the same again - on the Helpdesk - but this time ride. I've been encouraged by the idea of a new route.

Bless you for running this again.
G.

Thanks Graeme. I hope you'll share your thoughts again like you did in 2022. That was a nice touch and it went down very well.

[mzjo]

[quote author=alwyn link=topic=126097.msg2819408#msg2819408 date=1687282131

Very much this. In many ways Dod had the biggest challenge faced by any of the controllers and Dod and the team handled them impeccibly. Happily the control have declined our booking for 25, which has prompted to find a new venue which is much, much better. Their loss and our gain.

Glad to hear this, and @dod’s favourite volunteers will be back in 2025, pot scrubbing or not!
[/quote]

Oh dear - that does make me feel guilty about clearing off at 4am on the friday! I personally wouldn't object to a bit of light cleaning as a volunteer to add a bit of variation to the day.

[Trampy]

As has been mentioned earlier, as a rider coming from Australia, any increase would just be a small element of the overall cost of the trip and would tend to be lost in the cost of a combined ride/holiday trip.

Having looked at a few other LRM 1200 around the world, entry prices for supported and semi-supported rides seem to be around the GBP 350 to 400 mark, so paying 450 to 500 for a premier supported event doesn't seem too outrageous.

I tend to agree, that for riders who are used to these types of rides, the quality of the controls, food, and sleep provision are critical to making the ride a success.

Personally, I wouldn't be too bothered in having a two-tier fee with a reduced increase for UK riders compared to overseas riders as I don't think the entry price forms a major part of any financial decision for overseas riders whereas flights and accommodation are more likely to (my PBP flights were GBP 550 more than my LEL 2022 flights for example)

The only things I can think off that might defray any increase in the fee are spreading the increase by increasing the price of merchandise, drop bags etc, or possibly obtaining some sponsorship of some kind (although that clearly opens another can of worms)

[Fidgetbuzz]

Personally, I wouldn't be too bothered in having a two-tier fee with a reduced increase for UK riders compared to overseas riders as I don't think the entry price forms a major part of any financial decision for overseas riders whereas flights and accommodation are more likely to (my PBP flights were GBP 550 more than my LEL 2022 flights for example)

Maybe a difference  between Audax members and non members too , different  from the guaranteed place for long standing audax members

One to mull over Danial .

[LateStarter]

... coming from Australia...

Of course in Oz these days there are almost no "supported" brevets of any distance and even the 1000/1200 rides are run as unsupported "X" style, free / commercial (if you can find something open) controls and the cost to enter is $6 / GBP3 same as a 100, you do have to arrange your own accommodation / food etc. so an entry of GBP500/AUD1000 is a bit of a jump but you would get a little more.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

I think the drift towards unsupported long Oz brevets has inhibited Audax Oz’s popularity but the hair shirt brigade seem to be making most of the noise nowadays.

[hellymedic]

I don't think the entry fee has ever been a significant factor in any AUK event I've done and that includes rides starting within cycling distance of home & taking refreshments with family friends, resident en route.

I've not really done any 'full service events though.
5 nights, room only in a summertime Travelodge or Premier Inn would add up to more, even without food...

[alwyn]

The cost of a 'double' room at the start won't be much less than the cost of the ride.

[abc123]

I don't think the entry fee has ever been a significant factor in any AUK event I've done and that includes rides starting within cycling distance of home & taking refreshments with family friends, resident en route.

I've not really done any 'full service events though.
5 nights, room only in a summertime Travelodge or Premier Inn would add up to more, even without food...

For LEL 2022, booking in advance, I got a room in the Enfield Premier Inn the night before the start for £55, and a room the night I finished for £39, which I thought was pretty good value. The second booking was a bit of a gamble, but also an added incentive to stick to my planned schedule!
For the event itself, I agree that arranging your own accommodation and food would be a significant cost, and the LEL entry fee is a bargain.

[grams]

5 nights, room only in a summertime Travelodge or Premier Inn would add up to more, even without food...

Either you have a dim view of Travelodges or a very rosy view of what's provided on LEL.