Audax - night riding/sleep deprivation/tiredness and possible calamity

[willpom gwraudax]

Earlier today, I sent out my final email for my 400 in a couple of weekends.   I’ve put more emphasis on the train option (which I always mention first anyway), mentioned post event rest / sleep (which may involve a hotel), before driving home. Mentioned how sleepy we were after Route check.  Mentioned there are a number of nearby hotel options post event.

I suppose this is nudge theory, with Gary’s story being one such nudge. I can’t police what riders choose to do, but I can at least nudge them to stop and have a think on it.

I don’t mention lights in my pre event info, for riders on a 400.

I think this is a much more sensible approach than seeking AUK to issue formal guidance. Perhaps an email from Ian to all organisersfor some standard text that we can include in event emails etc. If anything is published publicly by AUK I believe it should be a simple link to what is already available.

[John Stonebridge]

I've decided that in future any 300km + events I organise will start / finish at a railway station with no easy car parking close by. 

My events this year (a 200 and a 300) already meet these criteria and my draft future 600 is penned in with a start at Haymarket Station Edinburgh where parking is effectively impossible within a number of miles

I cant police what riders do before / after an event but I can take practical steps to avoid recklessness. 

I guess that means waving goodbye to some events based that might have been based in the likes of Madderty, Ballachulish, Dunning, Forfar etc but its for the greater good.

A wake up call quite literally

[ElyDave]

I'm curious here, why use the same approach for a 200? I admit I'm at the front of the bunch on 100-200 distance, with a 200 being 8 hours-ish riding time for me. I would definitely not be too tired to drive, given 1-2 hours to eat, drink, chat after the event.

A 300 would be a step up, and a 400 definitely requiring night riding and in my mind definitely requiring planned rest.

[freeflow]

The simplest solution is to amend the entry form for Audax >200 km so that the rider has to confirm that they will not drive for 8 hours after the event.

[hellymedic]

'Full value’ riders are rather more likely to get closer to their ‘MUST SLEEP’ threshold.

An 8am start might mean getting up at 6, riding for most  of the 12+ hours after 8am and arriving exhausted, dry & hungry, just as the sun is setting.

I can quite see that driving immediately after a 200 might not be a wise choice...

[Lightning Phil]

I quite like that you were posting on the night riding thread at 1am.

[markcjagar]

I've called a few people out for going to drive straight home after 400s, it fell on deaf ears until I pointed out if you run me over whilst I'm cycling home you'll feel like a prick

Call people out, be an arse about it if you have to

Also, driving 10km to cycle 400km seems dumb. Cycle to the start of events that close to your house then you won't have to drive home

[T42]

Unless the start was within easy riding distance I used to book a hotel in the vicinity.  At one Ibis they even took delight in serving me breakfast at 2am; and coming back after the ride to a good feed and a soft bed was wonderful.

[Wycombewheeler]

Unless the start was within easy riding distance I used to book a hotel in the vicinity.  At one Ibis they even took delight in serving me breakfast at 2am; and coming back after the ride to a good feed and a soft bed was wonderful.

less delight (all round) but if you book a travelodge without a restaurant area you can get breakfast to go at any time. A hot shower and a soft bed after Brevet Cymru

[Wycombewheeler]

I've called a few people out for going to drive straight home after 400s, it fell on deaf ears until I pointed out if you run me over whilst I'm cycling home you'll feel like a prick

Call people out, be an arse about it if you have to

Also, driving 10km to cycle 400km seems dumb. Cycle to the start of events that close to your house then you won't have to drive home

what if they slept on the 400? I always sleep on asparagus and strawberries. Once I didn't need to use lights on the event, and another time I only needed to use lights to be seen as per legal requirements, there was enough light to see by.

[biffa]

glad you are ok. Driving tired is a dreadful idea.

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2023/may/08/blood-test-for-sleepy-drivers-could-pave-way-for-prosecutions

[markcjagar]

what if they slept on the 400? I always sleep on asparagus and strawberries.

this was a rider that I'd be with for the last 12 hours, they hadn't slept and this was also a much hillier event than A&S

you do you but if I see it I'll suggest that maybe they should take a nap before driving home after cycling 400km+, feel free to ignore me

[Byronius Maximus]

The simplest solution is to amend the entry form for Audax >200 km so that the rider has to confirm that they will not drive for 8 hours after the event.

I'm not a fan of things like this, since it assumes things that may not be true for everyone, and has an unwanted effect on those that it shouldn't apply. There are many riders that can be finished with a 300 within 13 hours, which is usually before 7pm - I'm not really willing to state that I'll wait around for 8 hours (by which point driving might be more dangerous) when it might only be an hour's drive home.

The action that Lightning Phil says he's taken by "nudging" his riders to consider adequate rest seems like a good way to go and seems like something people will pay more attention to than a tick box on a form. I've had an email this week from an organiser about a forthcoming 400, so perhaps this thread has had a good effect in that way (unless they were planning to do that anyway).

[Wycombewheeler]

what if they slept on the 400? I always sleep on asparagus and strawberries.

this was a rider that I'd be with for the last 12 hours, they hadn't slept and this was also a much hillier event than A&S

you do you but if I see it I'll suggest that maybe they should take a nap before driving home after cycling 400km+, feel free to ignore me

yeah, if you know they've been up all night. call them out. I'm all for not driving after riding through the night, but wary of blanket statements like 6 hours rest after a 400/600 without knowing whether they had that much rest during the event.

[teethgrinder]

Having good advice on how to stay awake all night seems a much better plan than inventing unenforceable rules that could very easily be even more dangerous.
To get through a night comfortably you either need to be very lucky, or more likely be very smart about sleep management and how to guage your sleep needs.
There's just so much more to it than just the ride itself. How much sleep and how effective that sleep was beforehand is much more important.

[Jeff E]

Age and Fitness have a huge impact, as does sitting in a warm car.    When younger and much fitter I found that the advice by fellow Time Triallers to spend just9-10 mins sleeping in my car after an Event did the trick, but I always then had to drive with the passenger window fully open to stay fully awake

Trying to sleep for any longer at the Event Arrivee seemed to make me more tired, but that may have been the effect of the lack of cold fresh air.     I only stopped twice on 400s to sleep but didn’t always get the desired recovery that I expected.     The best sleep recoveries on 600s were achieved by 10 mins on park benches, and once in my car at 400k for 2 1/2 hours.     Any more and at other times and my body shut down.     I’m sure that I have seen studies that prove sleep cycles have a big impact, so AUK mandating a set X hours rest at the Arrivee MAY not have the desired effect.   Advice from a Sleep Expert may be needed

Possibly the best result would be for Garry to agree to include his story in ARRIVEE.   AND for the Article to be alluded to in riding instructions of ALL Events.    Sometimes only shocking people make them take in a vital message

[Jethro]

The late, great Dave Pountney used to organise an annual 240 miles in 24 hours standard ride for the then local CTC DA (Birmingham & Midland) in the 1970's which I first rode in 1972 at the age of 17.  Dave split the group into two and I remember being in the first group.  At around 4am everyone was feeling a bit tired so we all pulled over to a nice grassy bank at the side of the road and had a short sleep.  Dave's group came along some time later and was furious and telling everyone that it was a bad idea to have a short sleep as we would all be even more tired and for ages!  I was to naïve to take much notice in those early days but I completed the event feeling fine and then rode home later.

In more recent times I helped out at Kings YHA during the Bryan Chapman 600 weekend and drove home afterwards without any problem at all on the Sunday morning having worked throughout the night.

[hellymedic]

I *think* the ‘horribleness’ to which I referred upthread was a fatal RTC, where the driver had been immediately post-Audax.
I can’t remember any details.

‘Getting away’ with risky behaviour umpteen times does not make it less risky or justify repetition...

[rogerzilla]

The driver who caused the Great Heck rail disaster had the book thrown at him, and quite rightly so.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-york-north-yorkshire-12591249

Completely unrepentant, though.  What a cnut.

[Jaded]

The driver who caused the Great Heck rail disaster had the book thrown at him, and quite rightly so.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-york-north-yorkshire-12591249

Completely unrepentant, though.  What a cnut.

Reply #57 applies…

[Hot Flatus]

Perhaps the simplest solution would be to ban all starts before 9am, so that at least riders aren't starting an event sleep deprived from the night before - why the ludicrous obsession with 6am starts?

Because it cuts down on night-riding. A 9am start on a 400 guarantees that all but the insanely fast will be riding until 3 or 4 am.  The slow will be all night.

[FifeingEejit]

The obsession with a 6am start fits with the general obsession of everyone being a Lark when most people aren't (most are hummingbirds).
The same process that sees Gyms open at silly am and shut around the time this night owl feels like doing anything tricky.

Asking people to wake up before their time, and drive to the start of an event is just as risky as expecting them to drive home at silly am.
However it's not as risky as people hopping in a car immediately after an event when the adrenalin is still going and find that actually they needed a snooze and caffeine, which can be countered by encouraging them to recover enough to be aware of how knackered they are with an offering of a comfy seat and some tea and biscuits.
But people will still do it no matter what.


For practical purposes you fit the event round the facilities you want to provide.
I'm finding it difficult to have a start control before 9am and one that finishes after midnight, so I'm working round that.

[Cudzoziemiec]

Hummingbird? <tap tap> Oh, it's someone more owlish than a lark but more larky than an... eagle. https://www.sleep.com/sleep-health/chronotype But is that winter or summer?

[Jaded]

Also, African or European?

[ElyDave]

The obsession with a 6am start fits with the general obsession of everyone being a Lark when most people aren't (most are hummingbirds).
The same process that sees Gyms open at silly am and shut around the time this night owl feels like doing anything tricky.

Asking people to wake up before their time, and drive to the start of an event is just as risky as expecting them to drive home at silly am.
However it's not as risky as people hopping in a car immediately after an event when the adrenalin is still going and find that actually they needed a snooze and caffeine, which can be countered by encouraging them to recover enough to be aware of how knackered they are with an offering of a comfy seat and some tea and biscuits.
But people will still do it no matter what.


For practical purposes you fit the event round the facilities you want to provide.
I'm finding it difficult to have a start control before 9am and one that finishes after midnight, so I'm working round that.

So for those of us who are larks and happy with early, you just shift the risk the other way. The solution is really just the awareness raising as no "one size fits all" prescriptive solution is likely to exist. Ultimately we all need to take our responsibility as VB has done