Audax - night riding/sleep deprivation/tiredness and possible calamity

[tonyh]

Ultimately we all need to take our responsibility

Yes.

I'm feeling I should add my thoughts, after a lifetime of needing to be very careful around this problem (occasionally falling asleep in lessons as a youngster, then more often in meetings, choir practices, plays, films, and even my own lessons as a teacher a couple of times). This could amuse colleagues, but did not feel at all funny, and it wasn't a sign of boredom or lack of interest.

Obviously therefore I'm cautious with driving and with riding. As far as I'm concerned:

You can't decide to concentrate and stay awake (however interesting the film [eg] is).
0pening car windows, loud music, talking, etc aren't likely to have much effect.
It doesn't depend reliably on how much sleep you had last night, or on what time you started - rather, on your activities for the last few days.
On longer (or any) rides, doziness signalled a need to find a way of sleeping almost immediately (rarely as difficult as might be thought). Same with driving.
But, having designated sleep stops wouldn't solve the difficulty - sleep can't be expected to happen because you want it to. Similarly for prearranged stops when driving.
As has been said,  many sorts of circumstances tend to "compel" people to drive when they are unfit to. And, unlike blood alcohol content, sleepiness is not directly related to what you've just been doing, which makes legislating about it tricky.

I guess that most people are very familiar with some version of the above, because otherwise the roads would be even more dangerous than they are.

Ongoing thanks and best wishes to VB: your original post is terrifyingly shocking. And life-saving. Very much appreciated.

[FifeingEejit]

So for those of us who are larks and happy with early, you just shift the risk the other way. The solution is really just the awareness raising as no "one size fits all" prescriptive solution is likely to exist. Ultimately we all need to take our responsibility as VB has done

Yes that's exactly what I'm getting at.
AS an org I can do as much as facilities and funds allow, but ultimately the rider/driver has to know themselves, and that's a function of life.

The most ridiculous it's got for me was the late afternoon ferry back from the Isle of Man to Heysham, thought was to get a snooze in the overcab of the motorhome but whenever I tried that I couldn't sleep.
Eventually did stop and get sleep, in a layby 5 miles from home.

Further to that, I always tried to sleep after a 24hr mtb race whether it was a morning or midday finish, and never really managed it.
It was always the onset of darkness that came with the risk of me getting sleepy, this meant a 10am finish, 3hrs trying to doze and getting as far as Dunkeld from Fort William before getting a snooze at the Hermitage.
But that is me.

[Flâneur]

Possibly the best result would be for Garry to agree to include his story in ARRIVEE.

Given the current climate in the country of media and political opportunists pouncing on cycling-related incidents to get things banned, I'd be very wary of that.

[CrazyEnglishTriathlete]

Thanks Garry for posting, and for the genuine warning.  I wish you all the best for your recovery.

In my case, age is definitely a factor, I found it easier when I first started Audax to drive after an event, but avoid it now as I seem to be more prone to struggling with tiredness when driving.   I do wonder if the greater comfort and less requirement for driver input in modern cars is a factor?

If driving is the only option (thank you Aslef) then I book to stay the night after the event and travel back the next day. 

We are, however, just a very minor subset of a much wider risk of driving when tired, but I agree with Flaneur that there are some editorials out there that would seize on such a story to bash cyclists.

[Laid Back Rich]

We are, however, just a very minor subset of a much wider risk of driving when tired...

true, but our tiredness can be pretty extreme

[hellymedic]

We are, however, just a very minor subset of a much wider risk of driving when tired...

true, but our tiredness can be pretty extreme

So true!
Anyone who has observed the ‘wreckage’ sleeping after a long ride will see bodies that hardly budge.
Most folk turn over in bed fairly frequently.
Exhausted AUKs don’t...

[TimC]

After a lifetime of operating very large aircraft over very antisocial hours, and having seen on several occasions the consequences of crew driving home immediately after a long flight, I can add some salient warnings to this.

If you knowingly drive unrested when you can reasonably forecast that you are too tired to do so, and cause an accident that injures someone else, you are legally negligent and the legal consequences - if you survive - may be very much worse than you might otherwise anticipate. Fatigue is a fault, not an excuse.

A sobering illustration of the consequences of driving when fatigued was the Selby rail disaster in 2001. 10 people were killed after a fatigued driver lost control of his car and crashed onto a railway. He was sentenced to 5 years in jail for dangerous driving. It's likely that under current guidelines the sentence would have been longer.

Don't ever knowingly drive tired.

[mattc]

Thanks for posting.

I expect that there's a lot of people reading it will know exactly what you are talking about and should be grateful for the reminder.

L

Has this incident been logged with AUK?

[Ian H]

Thanks for posting.

I expect that there's a lot of people reading it will know exactly what you are talking about and should be grateful for the reminder.

L

Has this incident been logged with AUK?

Interesting question.  It falls outside the hours of the event, can have no impact on event insurance.  On the other hand it might well be useful for AUK to know about such incidents.

[hellymedic]

I think the incident to which I alluded upthread (and whose details I still can’t recall) involved a driver who had done an AUK event and then taken to the road in a car.

[grams]

You might be thinking of this Helen:
https://road.cc/content/news/48833-night-ride-cyclist-convicted-causing-death-careless-driving

Fridays events are specificallydesigned so you can get home by train, and (presumably since the above) driving afterwards is specifically banned in the notes for riders before sign up.

AUK otoh routinely oversees events held in places where everyone is expected to drive, and SOP for knackered full value riders is to not encourage them to hang around. If this isn’t being considered as a warning to the organisation as well as to participants it should be.

(It not being an insured risk makes it worse, not better)

[Asterix, the former Gaul.]

HGV drivers have strict rules regarding driving hours for a very good reason.  They have tachometers that record what they do. Of course it doesn't stop them getting in the cab after a long audax ride..

[hellymedic]

Thanks grams!
That was the one. It wasn’t an Audax but that’s academic. I thought it was Hertfordshire.
Well, it was nearly 13 years ago.

[Nick Firth]

Age is a big factor in falling asleep at the wheel, I worked as a long distance HGV Class 1 driver for 17 years & left it all behind at age 55, tiredness was the problem, you are expected to work three thirteen hour days & two fifteen hour days in one week, when I was younger I could just cope but it was a problem later. You don't just fall asleep, there are warning signs which shouldn't be ignored, I wouldn't advise driving after a  full value 400k, you might be OK after a 300k if you havn't far to drive but that could be a problem also.

[hellymedic]

‘Not too far’…
The OP’s homeward trip was less than 10 miles!

[mattc]

You might be thinking of this Helen:
https://road.cc/content/news/48833-night-ride-cyclist-convicted-causing-death-careless-driving

Fridays events are specificallydesigned so you can get home by train, and (presumably since the above) driving afterwards is specifically banned in the notes for riders before sign up.

AUK otoh routinely oversees events held in places where everyone is expected to drive, and SOP for knackered full value riders is to not encourage them to hang around. If this isn’t being considered as a warning to the organisation as well as to participants it should be.

Indeed.

Now AuK and the Fridays have both had riders* who tried to drive home, ended up in hospital.
The Fridays have acted on this ...

(It not being an insured risk makes it worse, not better)

Yup

*Currently we don't seem to know how many AUKs.

[Ian H]

(It not being an insured risk makes it worse, not better)

I believe drivers are required to have insurance.

[mattc]

Thanks for posting.

I expect that there's a lot of people reading it will know exactly what you are talking about and should be grateful for the reminder.

L

Has this incident been logged with AUK?

Interesting question

Thank you Ian - I try to make my posts interesting!

Now; do you know the answer?

[Philip D]

Thanks for posting.

I expect that there's a lot of people reading it will know exactly what you are talking about and should be grateful for the reminder.

L

Has this incident been logged with AUK?

Interesting question.  It falls outside the hours of the event, can have no impact on event insurance.  On the other hand it might well be useful for AUK to know about such incidents.

Technically true perhaps? (I don't know what AUK's insurance covers.) IANAL, but in the case of a civil suit, I think it might be difficult for AUK to argue that its responsibility ends when the rider arrives at the Arrivée.

Barrister: "So Mr H, you organised an overnight ride with no provision for sleeping, and hence were in full knowledge that some riders would be driving home exhausted and in a sleep deprived condition? Don't you think that is reckless?"

[Ian H]

Thanks for posting.

I expect that there's a lot of people reading it will know exactly what you are talking about and should be grateful for the reminder.

L

Has this incident been logged with AUK?

Interesting question

Thank you Ian - I try to make my posts interesting!

Now; do you know the answer?

I don't.

[Wycombewheeler]

Bearing all the above in mind after the BCM I did not drive home, I booked a hotel room at Cribbs causeway (13miles from the campsite). I'm glad I did because although I was not falling asleep or dosing off, my speed control was not what it should be. I kept catching myself doing 60mph with everyone passing me. I doubt the dosies would have been far behind

You might be thinking of this Helen:
https://road.cc/content/news/48833-night-ride-cyclist-convicted-causing-death-careless-driving

This is crazy because in order for his car to be waiting for him in Whitstable he would have to drive there, and then take the train to London. His home is on the opposite side of London to Whitstable. So it amounts to driving twice and getting the train once, instead of just getting the train once. Why? what a waste of time.

‘Not too far’…
The OP’s homeward trip was less than 10 miles!

It was also after a full value 400, not a 300. Reaching the end of a 300 at 9pm, I would be capable of a short journey home. Reaching the end of a 400 at 3am definitely not.

[hellymedic]

3am is Universal Dozy Time - only safely cycled once in a ride if fresh and almost NEVER safe when driven.

[rabbit]

Thanks Von Broad, for posting this. A very useful reminder to all of us to be careful and aware of the damage that sleep deprivation can do.

I have a lot of experience of dealing with the dozies. I drive thousands and thousands of miles a year for work and, last year, found myself awake for the first time on the wrong side of an A road, still doing 50 mph. I'd had twice in the past, a long time ago, experienced a motorway rumble strip shaking me out of a dozy haze, but I had never properly fallen asleep at the wheel to that extent. After the rumble strip incidences I soon realised the magnitude of the danger and always pull over at the next services and sleep. Luckily I can sleep easily across the front seats of a van. Actually I can sleep anywhere, any time. Which is a blessing as well as a curse....hence why I have to be so strict with pulling over as soon as I feel tired.

However, when I ended up on the wrong side of the road it happened so fast. I knew quickly I was getting drowsy, and was actually on the look out for a layby to pull over when I fell asleep. Luckily for me there was nothing coming, I didn't end up in a ditch, I had a real scare, and I learnt some very big lessons. I cannot deal with too much sleep deprivation and I cannot burn the candle at both ends for days on end with work. I've changed my work life balance a lot since, and now prioritise sleep much more than before. I am seemingly more vulnerable to the dozies as I get older and regularly fall asleep and random times. I do not care if I am going to be late for site - if I am tired on route, I pull over and sleep for 20 minutes, no compromise.

I think it is clear on this thread that everyone is aware of the risks involved in driving after a big night on the bike, but I just wanted to add......lets not forget that falling asleep on the bike, on public roads, is also a huge risk to both the rider, and other road users. I have fallen asleep on a bike a number of times doing endurance events. Not a problem on a 24 hr mtb race as you just end up in a heap/tree/stream but it is a problem when descending off Snowdon in the early hours.......another time I woke up still moving on the wrong side of the road, goodness knows how the hell I stayed upright.

I guess we all need to take responsibility on and off the bike not to push through the dozies....and we all know that. Reminders like this help to keep it fresh in our minds. It would be useful for others to keep posting when they have had a near (or not so near) miss so we can all continue to learn from each other's mistakes.

[teethgrinder]

I cannot deal with too much sleep deprivation and I cannot burn the candle at both ends for days on end with work. I've changed my work life balance a lot since, and now prioritise sleep much more than before. I am seemingly more vulnerable to the dozies as I get older and regularly fall asleep and random times. I do not care if I am going to be late for site - if I am tired on route, I pull over and sleep for 20 minutes, no compromise.

That makes me suspect that you're not getting enough sleep or even if you are getting enough hours, it's not good quality.
Maybe sleep apnea or you're just not sleeping well for whatever reason.

[Veloman]

I'm sure TimC could add comment/clarification, but I vaguely recall RAF Institute of Aviation Medicine lecture on sleep deprivation and the cumulative effects and the amount of catch-up required. I think it was something like if you miss 4hr you need 8hr to overcome the sleep deficit.

I'm guessing that rarely happens and we go about our 'normal' life after events without catching-up for some while. Situations appear to be the responsibility of individuals and the challenges with ensuring folk are suitably rested before moving on to other things is an interesting debate, particularly duty of care factors as highlighted by PhilipD and his Barrister comments.

Only ever fallen asleep once on a cycle and ended up fully upright in a dry drainage ditch during first night of PBP. Never any incidents when driving as if I'm driving I always sleep after the event in distances of 300 or greater.

Challenging topic and worthy of establishing legal liability for AUK. Or we could just keep quiet and hope all goes well for everyone.