Cycling Nutrition - Pro Perspective - Cervelo Test Team

[simonp]

What sort of protein % intake is being advocated here?  How many g/kg, or what % of calories from protein?

I get typically about 15% from protein, or >100g of protein a day, in a 3000kcal daily intake.  I can't see the point of supplementing this: it's above the 0.8g/kg metric that Vorsprung uses anyway.  Why would I gain from a protein supplement.  Vorsprung also refers to the 5g/h absorption rate; I saw 5g-8g/h for an 80kg person.  It seems it's quite slow to absorb additional protein over the 14g I manage from having an ostensibly high carbohydrate breakfast.  (It's low in fat, not low in protein).

From reading Racing weight what it seems is that the average Western (he uses American) diet already contains enough protein for an endurance athlete.  What's gained by increasing this intake?

[simonp]

Do you have a protein shake just before bed, Simon?

Were you referring to a salty protein shake by any chance?

Hummers will reveal all in his new book: "Protein supplementation, the natural way"

[GruB]

Muscle recovery mainly, repairing damaged muscle fibres.
It also helps with general repair of skin / hair.

All that hard work and training takes a toll.  I personally see and feel a difference if my protein intake is correct.  

[Greenbank]

Do you have a protein shake just before bed, Simon?

Were you referring to a salty protein shake by any chance?

Hummers will reveal all in his new book: "Protein supplementation, the natural way"

Mind bleach at the ready, but he's already been there: Cross training: Onanibics

[mattc]

What sort of protein % intake is being advocated here?  How many g/kg, or what % of calories from protein?

I get typically about 15% from protein, or >100g of protein a day, in a 3000kcal daily intake.  I can't see the point of supplementing this: it's above the 0.8g/kg metric that Vorsprung uses anyway.  Why would I gain from a protein supplement.  Vorsprung also refers to the 5g/h absorption rate; I saw 5g-8g/h for an 80kg person.  It seems it's quite slow to absorb additional protein over the 14g I manage from having an ostensibly high carbohydrate breakfast.  (It's low in fat, not low in protein).

From reading Racing weight what it seems is that the average Western (he uses American) diet already contains enough protein for an endurance athlete.  What's gained by increasing this intake?

Grub's point about recovery is true, but I suspect endurance athletes don't need a LOT of extra protein (certainly compared to strength/sprint athletes). I still wolf down a load after any tough ride though (this may be just an excuse ... )

More interesting to me is protein intake DURING exercise. From what I've read it's pointless for short events (<4 hours, say?), but us Big Boys might benefit.[all the research I've seen is for comparatively short events - "endurance" = 40km on a bike!]

There seem to be 2 aspects; slow release of energy (good on long rides), and the putative 'repair' process. I reckon the latter is only really useful on 'proper' rides - say 15h+ in the saddle. I'd avoid eating more protein in 1 go than I could absorb over the following 3 hours (say), unless someone has evidence that it won't hinder my digestion of other food (carbs etc).

Thinking as I type, I suspect we should just aim for the same calories as %of total intake. Which Simon says is around 15%. Do your typical solid flapjack/cereal bars provide this?

[vorsprung]

Found an interesting article.  I am not a sports nutritionalist remember

http://img2.tapuz.co.il/forums/1_102825767.pdf

Although there is no doubt that skeletal muscle oxidizes about 1% to 6% of total energy from amino acids during endurance exercise, there is some controversy as to whether this alters the dietary requirement for protein

It has been known for many years that CHO intake has a significant sparing effect on amino acid oxidation and protein balance...CHO consumption during exercise is an effective strategy to attenuate potential exercise-induced increases in amino acid oxidation

dehydration is also a determinant of amino acid oxidation, with cellular dehydration inducing an increase

Low- to moderate-intensity recreational endurance exercise does not require dietary protein
requirements in excess of current general population recommendations. Moderate-intensity endurance athletes require only marginal (1.1 g · kg 25% increase) increases in dietary protein over that recommended for the general population and the maximal protein requirement attainable by only a minority of all endurance athletes (top sport or elite) is not likely to exceed 1.6 g · kg

So basically, as a "moderate" to "elite" ( based on their definitions ) I would need a little more protein during hard training or events than my default 0.8g/kg, maybe 20g to 25g a day.

(CHO is Carbohydrate )

[simonp]

I found this interesting article on absorption rates:

Interesting article on Protein absorption... - UK-Muscle Body Building Community - Bodybuilding Forum

(I can't find the original)

Racing Weight quotes a study involving 30% protein intake suggested it reduced time trial performance.  That's a very high protein intake, though, well above 1.6g/kg.

[andygates]

...which might just mean that either it's reduced-carbs having the impact; or the fuelling pathways are clogged up with bacon. 

[simonp]

Thinking as I type, I suspect we should just aim for the same calories as %of total intake. Which Simon says is around 15%. Do your typical solid flapjack/cereal bars provide this?

Gut feeling says no.  Checking nutrition info from a random flapjack on the web suggests about 7% - well on the low side of the minimum recommended level (10%).

If you are riding with an energy drink which is 100% carb then you will drag the protein intake down further.  However, baked beans have 18% calories from protein, bringing it back up a bit at the control.  The toast is even better - apparently that's 20% protein.  Poached egg - 35% from protein, but high (63% calories from fat) fat content; but as the beans and toast are low fat, that's probably ok.

I did try the High 5 4:1 carb:protein energy drink for a while.  Couldn't really detect any difference.  Nor can I really tell among all the other variables if the fructose stuff works either.

[mattc]

Thinking as I type, I suspect we should just aim for the same calories as %of total intake. Which Simon says is around 15%. Do your typical solid flapjack/cereal bars provide this?

Gut feeling says no.  Checking nutrition info from a random flapjack on the web suggests about 7% - well on the low side of the minimum recommended level (10%).

(GUT feeling, hu-huh!)
Doesn't surprise me. The ones that N makes have lots of nuts which will drag it up a bit. But it's clearly easier to get protein from "proper food" i.e. baked beans, toast, egg etc.
[EDIT: just looked at an SIS Apple "Go" bar, which is 16% protein with negligible fat - so that's probably miles above 7% of calories. It's actually 66% apple -  remind me why I'm not just eating an apple ... ]

If I had a pound for every time, after 250k-or-so, someone said:
" You need something savoury after eating sweet stuff all day, don't you?"

...  Nor can I really tell among all the other variables if the fructose stuff works either.

Burn the heretic !!!

[citoyen]

Low- to moderate-intensity recreational endurance exercise does not require dietary protein

This is what I understand to be the principle behind the so-called "fat burning zone" - ie 60-70% MHR, or whatever the exact figures are.

I've read some stuff recently that suggests you actually burn more fat by training at higher intensity, which is true enough - at 80% MHR, a lower percentage of the calories you burn will be fat calories, but because you're burning more calories overall, you will burn more fat.

However, you will also burn more muscle. And that's when you need to start necking the Creatine.

Personally, I can do without the powders and potions. The occasional energy gel is my only concession to hi-tech nutrition. My usual breakfast, which I have after my morning ride (I don't have anything before I set off), is a couple of boiled eggs and a few slices of toast with peanut butter and marmalade. I think that covers all my carb/protein/fat needs quite adequately. Though of course I'm not riding nearly as far or as hard as some of you chaps.

d.

[simonp]

If you exercise at higher intensity, the body depletes its glycogen stores.  This results in glycogen replacement afterwards.  Glycogen can't be replaced from fat - but AIUI other bodily functions switch to fat burning to conserve blood sugar & glycogen.  Net result: you burn more fat than the raw fat burned during exercise.