sustrans: you what?

[iakobski]

[Comes out of closet]

I'm a ranger too.

My section is 90% on road, can be ridden on a road bike and goes somewhere vaguely "useful" (the centre of Peterborough).

That's not the point though. The routes are not for "fast utility cycling" - very few people willingly cycle 15-20 miles to go shopping. Their utility cycling will be from one village to the next, or from the outskirts to the centre of town, and for that they'll take whatever route goes straight there.

I cycle 15 miles to Peterborough daily and have met a fair few people who do the same journey. No-one takes the direct, smooth road route (13 miles), but neither does anyone use the NCN route, they take the compromise between quiet roads and directness.

IMO the route is wrong, because it neither takes the route everyone else chooses, nor does it take the most attractive route. It misses out a long section of quiet single track with stunning views, in order to include a section of cycle track. Unfortunately the cycle track in question runs down the side of a busy trunk road. I'm working on that point, but it does mean the cycle track gets maintained.

What I'm trying to say is NCN routes are generally useful for what they are trying to achieve, but they are slightly flawed (not flawed enough to warrant being "despised"). What they need is more people like Oscar's Dad and others on here taking on ranger duties rather than whinging about rangers not being proper cyclists.

[Regulator]

I'm going to do Sustrans Route 11 today, from Cambridge to Kings Lynn.

The only problem with the route is that it ends up in Kings Lynn...  

Although, to be fair, you should hear what the people of Kings Lynn say about it.

Given the wind direction today, I've decided to change the route and go from Kings Lynn to Cambridge.

Off to the station soon...  

[bobb]

My experience tells me that NCN sinks or swims based on the quality of the local Rangers.

The route out of Chelmsford from the university towards Sandon then on towards E.Hanningfield is a much better experience than the battle on the roads through the town and up to the Army and Navy and off towards Southend. I am grateful to add a couple of extra miles to my journey to miss the town centre.

Thats a swim for me  

Indeed. Although I've slagged off the NCN in the past, I think it's better to look at the positives. The NCN1 through Chelmsford has been a great success. Obviously I used to use it long before anyone stuck a few blue signs on it.

There are always loads of people using it from hard core roadies to families and chavs on BSOs.

The best thing about it is that it's so direct. I've been lost so many times in towns I don't know very well when trying to follow NCN signs. Harlow and Taunton are the worst offenders. You'd have to have an even more shit sense of direction than me to get lost on NCN1 through Chelmsford!

[Wobbly John]

I'm going to do Sustrans Route 11 today, from Cambridge to Kings Lynn.

The only problem with the route is that it ends up in Kings Lynn...  

Although, to be fair, you should hear what the people of Kings Lynn say about it.

Given the wind direction today, I've decided to change the route and go from Kings Lynn to Cambridge.

Off to the station soon...  

The tarmac path along the river at Kings Lynn is one of the better Sustrans initiatives. Without it it's either 'cut-throat' main roads or good local knowledge of the back-roads.

Ely to Kings Lynn is pancake flat and not an inspiring ride. I usually opt for a train to & from KL and ride out to the Norfolk coast & back. Ticket is usually only 10p more than one-way.

[Oscar's dad]

I'm going to do Sustrans Route 11 today, from Cambridge to Kings Lynn.

The only problem with the route is that it ends up in Kings Lynn...  

Although, to be fair, you should hear what the people of Kings Lynn say about it.

Given the wind direction today, I've decided to change the route and go from Kings Lynn to Cambridge.

Off to the station soon...  

The tarmac path along the river at Kings Lynn is one of the better Sustrans initiatives. Without it it's either 'cut-throat' main roads or good local knowledge of the back-roads.

Ely to Kings Lynn is pancake flat and not an inspiring ride. I usually opt for a train to & from KL and ride out to the Norfolk coast & back. Ticket is usually only 10p more than one-way.

Part of my section of NCN goes down Cut Throat Lane 

[nuttycyclist]

...
It includes the statement that there are a full range of maps for "Iconic long distance rides that the National Cycle Network is famous for"
...

...
I remembered that 20 years ago the adverts were that they intended to set up a long distance cycling network, the equivalent to the motorway network for cars.  I thought this was a good idea.  Don't know when they're going to start building it though?
...

These, above, refer to a National Cycling Network.

This, below, implies it is not a network but an encouragement to get people to go somewhere for a bike ride.

I think this constant slagging off of Sustrans is missing the point.  The idea of the NCN isn't about 'us' getting around quickly - it's about getting 'them' off their arses, out of their cars and onto bikes.  And despite the odd bit of poor quality routing, it tends to do this quite well.

Exactly.

So what, exactly is the NCN and sustrans all about?   If it is a National Cycling Network, then lets start creating one (yet Oscars Dad says we already have it - it's called the road).  If it's about getting bums on seats let's drop the cyclepath farcility nonsense and let sustrans focus on their other schemes, which I think are excellent, such as bikeability and the brainwashing of people with the catchphrases such as "join the movement".



As I said earlier in the thread, a lot of people I see on the NCN are those that have DRIVEN there, so it's not really getting people out of their cars?



Yes, some rangers such as those on this thread are good.  They are clued up re creating a usable route, rather than focussing on getting the cyclists away from those nasty cars and onto the lovely rough poorly surfaced paths.

[JohnP]

As I said earlier in the thread, a lot of people I see on the NCN are those that have DRIVEN there, so it's not really getting people out of their cars?

Unless they are driving their cars ON the NCN then it IS getting people out of their cars and on their bikes or feet.  If they couldn't find a location where they felt able to enjoy themselves for a couple of hours then they probably wouldn't ever sit on a bike.

Even Lance Armstrong drives to the mountains for a days training then drives home again.  Actually, he probably gets somebody else to do the driving for him.

[Oscar's dad]

Nutty makes some good points. 

Sustrans and the NCN is far from perfect.  My approach has always been to get involved and start fixing the issues.  Obviously, I can only influence my small area. Having said that I have been on a land grab lately so my area is growing!  Poland will be the next to fall and I don't think Switzerland can hold out forever    I am also a Liaison Ranger now with my own Ranger Group! 

[Kathy]

As I said earlier in the thread, a lot of people I see on the NCN are those that have DRIVEN there, so it's not really getting people out of their cars?

Unless they are driving their cars ON the NCN then it IS getting people out of their cars and on their bikes or feet.  If they couldn't find a location where they felt able to enjoy themselves for a couple of hours then they probably wouldn't ever sit on a bike.

But it's getting more cars on the previously pleasantly quiet roads near the NCNs. 

[JohnP]

I don't disagree with some of Nutty's good points.  

[JohnP]

As I said earlier in the thread, a lot of people I see on the NCN are those that have DRIVEN there, so it's not really getting people out of their cars?

Unless they are driving their cars ON the NCN then it IS getting people out of their cars and on their bikes or feet.  If they couldn't find a location where they felt able to enjoy themselves for a couple of hours then they probably wouldn't ever sit on a bike.

But it's getting more cars on the previously pleasantly quiet roads near the NCNs. 

True.  I need another coffee and time to think about that one.

[mattc]

Even Lance Armstrong drives to the mountains for a days training then drives home again.  Actually, he probably gets somebody else to do the driving for him.

... which is why I'm not _wholly_ convinced that bike racing is a Good Thing :-/

(I believe Nicole Cooke rides to her local track, as did that other rider who got run over en route? So good for them, boo for Lance!
EDIT: actually it might have been Vicky, but I suspect a lot of them do ...)

[ChrisO]

Surely the confusion comes from the name.

Sustrans and their routes seem to be about getting people of limited cycling ability/experience to get on their bikes and get some exercise or enjoy it as a leisure activity. A laudable goal but it's not primarily about utility cycling.

In which case why is it called Sustainable Transport when it is nothing of the sort ?

At best it is disingenuous but I have always suspected it to be a slightly deliberate misrepresentation so as to attract funding and support.

If Sustrans and the CTC simply swapped names it would be far more accurate.

[токамак]

(I believe Nicole Cooke rides to her local track, as did that other rider who got run over en route? So good for them, boo for Lance!)

And didn't Vicky Pendleton complain in some interview about the drivers in Manchester? She cycles to the Velodrome, she needs Sustrans route!

[Oscar's dad]

Nutty makes some good points. 

Sustrans and the NCN is far from perfect.  My approach has always been to get involved and start fixing the issues.  Obviously, I can only influence my small area. Having said that I have been on a land grab lately so my area is growing!  Poland will be the next to fall and I don't think Switzerland can hold out forever    I am also a Liaison Ranger now with my own Ranger Group! 

The other thing I am focusing on is using what is available right now or in the very near future.  The UK is never going to have a cycle network like the Netherlands as there simply isn't the will or money.  Therefore, we are not going to have a cycle network equivalent to the motorway system for cars.  Consequently, I am not bothering to try and achieve this pipe dream.

What I am trying to do is use signing to link attractive bits of quiet roads with traffic free routes where available.  I also want the routes to go somewhere reasonably directly.  On my growing patch this is easily achievable and we have had a good measure of success so far.  For example, you can follows signs from Colchester to Great Dunmow via Tiptree, Witham and Braintree.  If we have done the job right you wouldn't need a map.

[vorsprung]

Nutty makes some good points. 

Sustrans and the NCN is far from perfect.  My approach has always been to get involved and start fixing the issues.  Obviously, I can only influence my small area. Having said that I have been on a land grab lately so my area is growing!  Poland will be the next to fall and I don't think Switzerland can hold out forever    I am also a Liaison Ranger now with my own Ranger Group! 

What I am trying to do is use signing to link attractive bits of quiet roads with traffic free routes where available.  I also want the routes to go somewhere reasonably directly.  On my growing patch this is easily achievable and we have had a good measure of success so far.  For example, you can follows signs from Colchester to Great Dunmow via Tiptree, Witham and Braintree.  If we have done the job right you wouldn't need a map.

Sounds like a good plan

[Oscar's dad]

Surely the confusion comes from the name.

Sustrans and their routes seem to be about getting people of limited cycling ability/experience to get on their bikes and get some exercise or enjoy it as a leisure activity. A laudable goal but it's not primarily about utility cycling.

In which case why is it called Sustainable Transport when it is nothing of the sort ?

At best it is disingenuous but I have always suspected it to be a slightly deliberate misrepresentation so as to attract funding and support.

If Sustrans and the CTC simply swapped names it would be far more accurate.

I don't think it is realistic to push for sustainable transport in one big step.  First get people using their bikes for fun, then get them using them for utility.

The overall aim (I believe) is to get a bike (or walking) into everyone's' lives so they use cars less.  If everyone used a bike or walking for all their sub five mile journeys think how much better off we would be!

[vorsprung]

The overall aim (I believe) is to get a bike (or walking) into everyone's' lives so they use cars less.  If everyone used a bike or walking for all their sub five mile journeys think how much better off we would be!

The only way that is going to happen is if people ride on roads

[Oscar's dad]

The overall aim (I believe) is to get a bike (or walking) into everyone's' lives so they use cars less.  If everyone used a bike or walking for all their sub five mile journeys think how much better off we would be!

The only way that is going to happen is if people ride on roads

Exactly, the more cyclists on the road they safer they become.  The CTC have just started a campaign called "Safety in Numbers" to encourage this very thing.

[ChrisO]

I don't think it is realistic to push for sustainable transport in one big step.  First get people using their bikes for fun, then get them using them for utility.

I'm not saying it should be in one big step or that they should accept no compromise.

But it seems to be that they prioritise recreational and leisure cycling over what could be sustainable utility cycling because frankly having fun is much sexier than doing something because you have to.

I don't know where one could find the statistics to prove it one way or the other but it seems to me that Sustrans is more active and more visible in less urban areas.

I'm sure that cycling through nice parts of Essex and Cambridgeshire is a joy to the soul but cycling from Edgware to Clapham is a lot more relevant to sustainable transport.

As I said, I don't have any complaints about the goal of getting people cycling but I think it is misleading bordering on fraudulent to claim that it is part of a sustainable transport movement.

[hellymedic]

There's a train every three minutes from Edgware to Clapham. Why cycle?
Just make sure Ali's Flower Stall doesn't obstruct the bike parking...

[Oscar's dad]

I don't think it is realistic to push for sustainable transport in one big step.  First get people using their bikes for fun, then get them using them for utility.

I'm not saying it should be in one big step or that they should accept no compromise.

But it seems to be that they prioritise recreational and leisure cycling over what could be sustainable utility cycling because frankly having fun is much sexier than doing something because you have to.

I don't know where one could find the statistics to prove it one way or the other but it seems to me that Sustrans is more active and more visible in less urban areas.

I'm sure that cycling through nice parts of Essex and Cambridgeshire is a joy to the soul but cycling from Edgware to Clapham is a lot more relevant to sustainable transport.

As I said, I don't have any complaints about the goal of getting people cycling but I think it is misleading bordering on fraudulent to claim that it is part of a sustainable transport movement.

Chris, you could be right.  I can't speak for Sustran's national policy or aims.  I am purposely concentrating on my local patch as it's here I think I can make the most difference.

From reading the Sustrans literature I get sent there certainly seems to be a great deal of activity aimed at urban communities and sustainable transport initiatives seem to be very much in evidence.

[ChrisO]

There's a train every three minutes from Edgware to Clapham. Why cycle?
Just make sure Ali's Flower Stall doesn't obstruct the bike parking...

I don't think there is actually since they aren't on the same line. You'd need to get two, possibly three tube lines, not that I meant it literally in the first place.

But even if there were, by that measure are you suggesting people in London shouldn't bother cycling ? The why bother argument is why people drive their cars places.

[Greenbank]

There's a train every three minutes from Edgware to Clapham. Why cycle?
Just make sure Ali's Flower Stall doesn't obstruct the bike parking...

I don't think there is actually since they aren't on the same line. You'd need to get two, possibly three tube lines, not that I meant it literally in the first place.

(Completely off topic but...)

Northern Line.

Direct train from Clapham {South,Common,North} every 8 minutes (less frequent off peak). The other trains will require a change (but still on the Northern Line) at Kennington, Euston/Camden Town or both.

The quickest journey will be to change onto the Victoria Line between Stockwell and Warren St/Euston although it's a gamble which you pick for the right branch of the Northern Line above Camden Town...

Unless you meant Clapham Junction, but that's not on the tube, and is in Battersea several miles from Clapham.

[hellymedic]

The Northern Line might not go to Clapham Junction but goes to Clapham North, Clapham Common and Clapham South unless I've gone mad, which is always a possibility...