Author Topic: Ubuntu, why it is crap  (Read 44902 times)

frankly frankie

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Re: Ubuntu, why it is crap
« Reply #100 on: 04 May, 2011, 06:22:23 pm »
I did. It started up yesterday afternoon, and proudly told me there was an update available. I clicked on 'update' - end of usable computer!
That is a bad Windows habit, it said there was an update available, you chose to click it.

I would call it a bad Ubuntu habit.  (Though I agree with you about the 'chose to click' bit.)
At least in Windows it's easy to turn off both automatic updates and update checking.
I have Ubuntu NBR on a netbook and every time I switch the darn thing on the Update Manager starts up unbidden, and I can't see any option (via the GUI) to stop it doing this.  I have to shut it down manually, even then it tries again after a short while.  Really quite annoying.
when you're dead you're done, so let the good times roll

ian

Re: Ubuntu, why it is crap
« Reply #101 on: 04 May, 2011, 06:22:46 pm »
Ian, if you're that desperate to get away from the command line to mount disk shares etc. you should move to SuSE.
the SuSE YAST tool usually makes a good attempt at doing all that pesky editing of files for you


start Yast2 from the contol panel
click on Windows domain membership


Well, I grew up with command shells, Unix, X-Windows and SPARCstations, so I'm only bothered with the principle of having to do that kind of thing. File sharing is now effectively seamless between Mac and Windows machines, and it's another one of those things that ought to be a no-brainer for any OS. As would ensuring that an upgrade is not stymied by a known, common video driver issue. Users don't care whose fault it is. No one reads release notes, nor should they have to. Things should just work users how anticipate, otherwise it's a FAIL.

Woofage

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Re: Ubuntu, why it is crap
« Reply #102 on: 04 May, 2011, 07:04:15 pm »
At least in Windows it's easy to turn off both automatic updates and update checking.
I have Ubuntu NBR on a netbook and every time I switch the darn thing on the Update Manager starts up unbidden, and I can't see any option (via the GUI) to stop it doing this.  I have to shut it down manually, even then it tries again after a short while.  Really quite annoying.

You can turn it off. I have UNR 10.4 on our netbook and I too got annoyed by the reminders. I run Mint on my desktop machine so I can't check the method just now.
Pen Pusher

inc

Re: Ubuntu, why it is crap
« Reply #103 on: 04 May, 2011, 08:00:37 pm »
. As would ensuring that an upgrade is not stymied by a known, common video driver issue. Users don't care whose fault it is. No one reads release notes, nor should they have to. Things should just work users how anticipate, otherwise it's a FAIL.


I agree this is what users expect but it is just not going to happen for everyone. I think Ubuntu have scored an own goal with the video driver issue as vesa would have worked for NVidia cards ( I don't think  ATI or Intel are affected)  but I suspect the new bling Unity desktop may not work as planned without the nouveau driver as they can't ship the proprietary NVida driver as standard.  Ubuntu was the distro for MS users migrating from Windows and it was made easy with GUIs for most things but now it wants to be cutting edge and using a video driver and desktop both still in heavy development this  shows the results. Things have moved on since Ubuntu first appeared and there are plenty of alternatives. It is some time since I used Windows but don't they still need the respective video drivers installing.

woollypigs

  • Mr Peli
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Re: Ubuntu, why it is crap
« Reply #104 on: 04 May, 2011, 08:48:00 pm »
So after all that praise I gave Ubuntu yesterday, I came home to an error.

"gconf-sanity-check-2 exited with status 256"

Just searching for a fix now.
Current mood: AARRRGGGGHHHHH !!! #bollockstobrexit

TimC

  • Old blerk sometimes onabike.
Re: Ubuntu, why it is crap
« Reply #105 on: 04 May, 2011, 10:19:32 pm »
Tim have you installed the Nvidea drivers ?

Yes, I have. In fact, with the 'current' driver it almost worked, but the forums recommended the '173' driver so I installed that, which is when the blank window issue occurred. I've managed now to wipe the HDD and reinstall 10.10, which does seem to work fine.

Quote from: inc
Quote from: TimC on Today at 12:42:09


I did. It started up yesterday afternoon, and proudly told me there was an update available. I clicked on 'update' - end of usable computer!

That is a bad Windows habit, it said there was an update available, you chose to click it. Did you bother to read the release notes.  Hardware is made to be MS compatible not Linux compatible. That Linux incorrectly identifies your  ( ancient)  monitor and video card is not such a big surprise. The problem with NVidia is that they stopped supporting their NV driver last year but the solution is simple and easily found on the various forums, it just takes a tiny effort.

I think this is a bit OTT. If a software developer is confident enough to enable an auto-update procedure, it should work. If there are doubts, they should be made plain before anyone risks trashing their computer. Despite the age of that laptop, the NVidia card is still supported under Windows and in fact the laptop had no real difficulty running Win7, though without the graphics effects.

inc

Re: Ubuntu, why it is crap
« Reply #106 on: 05 May, 2011, 09:04:14 am »

I think this is a bit OTT. If a software developer is confident enough to enable an auto-update procedure, it should work. If there are doubts, they should be made plain before anyone risks trashing their computer.


The doubts are made plain  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NattyNarwhal/ReleaseNotes  see under graphics  .

Andrij

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Re: Ubuntu, why it is crap
« Reply #107 on: 05 May, 2011, 09:28:09 am »

I think this is a bit OTT. If a software developer is confident enough to enable an auto-update procedure, it should work. If there are doubts, they should be made plain before anyone risks trashing their computer.


The doubts are made plain  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NattyNarwhal/ReleaseNotes  see under graphics  .

So, just a few issues with 11.04.  I'll be waiting another week or two before I upgrade, and make sure I have plenty of time set aside to do some reading / fire fighting.

I do like Ubuntu, but having had a previous upgrade go horribly wrong, I've got into the habit of waiting a bit before moving on to the latest version.
 
;D  Andrij.  I pronounce you Complete and Utter GIT   :thumbsup:

ian

Re: Ubuntu, why it is crap
« Reply #108 on: 05 May, 2011, 09:43:00 am »

I think this is a bit OTT. If a software developer is confident enough to enable an auto-update procedure, it should work. If there are doubts, they should be made plain before anyone risks trashing their computer.


The doubts are made plain  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NattyNarwhal/ReleaseNotes  see under graphics  .

I have to explain / beat this into our developers and product managers all the time - people don't read the release notes. You can't expect people to read through several pages of cryptic text. They don't. No point arguing that they should, because they won't, in the same way that tigers can never be persuaded to order the vegetarian option in a restaurant. It's the natural order of things.

If stuff just happens, it should just work. No point in the plaintive cry 'but it says in the release notes..."

Re: Ubuntu, why it is crap
« Reply #109 on: 05 May, 2011, 12:13:22 pm »
I've got to say - I've just looked at those release notes. I don't use Ubuntu - mostley SuSE for me.
But just look - for the same OS you can get (for free) variants ready to run on:
desktop
server
netbook
embedded development boards
Myth-TV settops
clouds

Isn't that quite amazing really?

I agree that Microsoft will have Windows OS to run on desktops/servers/Xboxes - but these are marketed as different products.

frankly frankie

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Re: Ubuntu, why it is crap
« Reply #110 on: 05 May, 2011, 05:12:15 pm »
people don't read the release notes. You can't expect people to read through several pages of cryptic text. They don't. No point arguing that they should, because they won't, in the same way that tigers can never be persuaded to order the vegetarian option in a restaurant.

I dunno - to me, release notes are genuinely useful information and often interesting - the problem would be that in most typical software update procedures they aren't very accessible.  There's no 'read this before you click OK' process.  

Whenever I'm presented with a software upgrade, my first reaction is "why should I bother?" - so then, if I'm still remotely interested, I might check the release notes and find that the only alteration is that the Help files have been translated into Azerbijani - so then, of course, since I'm keen to polish my language skills, I would go ahead ...
when you're dead you're done, so let the good times roll

TimC

  • Old blerk sometimes onabike.
Re: Ubuntu, why it is crap
« Reply #111 on: 05 May, 2011, 07:56:48 pm »

I think this is a bit OTT. If a software developer is confident enough to enable an auto-update procedure, it should work. If there are doubts, they should be made plain before anyone risks trashing their computer.


The doubts are made plain  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NattyNarwhal/ReleaseNotes  see under graphics  .

That may be plain to you. To me, it's complete gobbledegook - and I'm fairly tech friendly, though no computer or software engineer. I'm not conversant with Linux banter, and I don't want to have to be. The PC press sold me the line that Ubuntu is a valid alternative to Windows or MacOS. My experience suggests that that maybe too optimistic a statement. Ubuntu, either with Gnome or Unity, is a fairly attractive but niche alternative that still needs a fair degree of tech knowhow to get it working smoothly on much common hardware. If you're lucky, you may have a hardware config that it's happy to work on withno errors or omissions or need to get under the bonnet. If you're not - and I'm not - you need to learn all sorts of esoteric ways of frigging drivers and software to give yourself half a chance if getting a working system. To that extent, it's more like Windows 3.1 than an alternative to Win7 or OSX. I guess that may always be a problem with open-source, enthusiast-driven software - it's never quite finished as a proper piece of working code. For all its detractors, and history, Win7 is light years ahead of Ubuntu as a user experience. Yes, it's legacy code and bloat mean it needs serious hardware to work quickly, but work it generally does. And when it doesn't, you don't need a degree in obscure computing to sort it out (though you may need the patience of a saint!).

Re: Ubuntu, why it is crap
« Reply #112 on: 05 May, 2011, 08:00:31 pm »
OSX is easy, it only runs on a small hardware set controlled by Apple. If Ubuntu could constrain itself to that same small hardware set I would think it would have as few issues as OSX.
I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that.

border-rider

Re: Ubuntu, why it is crap
« Reply #113 on: 05 May, 2011, 08:07:45 pm »
The NVIDIA issue has been there since 10.04  - I  had to fiddle it on my old Dell, and that died almost a year ago.  I mentioned it here at the time.

I dunno; even having to fix that still makes any Ubuntu install/OS upgrade far less painful than Win.  I've lost track of the number of years of my life spent trawling the internet for Win drivers.

simonp

Re: Ubuntu, why it is crap
« Reply #114 on: 05 May, 2011, 09:03:50 pm »
I’ve had some real pain getting my Win XP box working again after random MS updates broke it.

FreeBSD wasn’t that good on this.  Ubuntu has been far better, but I’ve never done a major version update (and to be fair, I have not done a major version update on Windows since about 10 years ago).

Re: Ubuntu, why it is crap
« Reply #115 on: 06 May, 2011, 08:05:31 am »
I never do. I tried it on Debian years ago but prefer to do a clean install instead.
I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that.

iakobski

Re: Ubuntu, why it is crap
« Reply #116 on: 06 May, 2011, 08:33:09 am »
I'm glad I didn't see this thread before! Logged into my ubuntu (headless) on Sunday and it said upgrade available. It was 5 AM so I just went ahead and did it without thinking. Ignored the warnings about upgrading over SSH. Luckily went through totally smoothly - first time I've upgraded rather than just doing a fresh install.

Wombat

  • Is it supposed to hurt this much?
Re: Ubuntu, why it is crap
« Reply #117 on: 06 May, 2011, 09:31:09 am »
I really, really want Ubuntu (or some similar flavour of open source OS) to be a brilliant success, so I can use something other than Mr Gates product.  However, the issues for me are those as listed close above, i.e. the need to be an advanced geek before you can understand the warnings hidden in a file, and that most of the software I choose or need to use is not available for Linux. 

I am also bemused by the "oh, you'll need to do a complete reinstall for that" comments.  I don't have 2 days spare to sit mesmerised by a PC monitor reinstalling software suites....  I sometimes wonder if the posters on here actually USE their computers, or do they just play with them.  To me, its a tool to do a job, and sometimes entertain me a little, just like my TV or my camera.  I don't want to have to spend months learning how to use it, there's enough of a learning curve with the software applications, the OS should just be a load up and use, experience, surely?

How long would it take me to source and install for Linux: Abel bellringing simulator software, Windows mobile device centre, Tell me more language tuition, Dragon Naturally speaking, Turbocad, Photoshop Elements, Premiere Elements, Nero, memory map, PDf convertor pro, Calibre, Smartview thermal imaging software, Iplan energy management?  And thats only the icons on the left of my monitor, not the rest.  I know many of those don't even exist for any sort of Linux.

So, how usable is Linux for me?  Its not, its a total fail, however much I want to find a replacement for the products of the evil empire.  Win7 offered me a service pack yesterday, it just worked. Yes, its huge, its bloated, and it costs money, but it does what I need it to do.

Wombat

BrianI

  • Is it a bird? Is it a plane? No, it's Lepidopterist Man!
Re: Ubuntu, why it is crap
« Reply #118 on: 06 May, 2011, 09:52:58 am »
I must admit I've had very little issues with ubuntu over the past few years that I've used it as my sole OS on my desktop PC.  However I did  make a point in that if I bought any hardware, e.g. video capture card, video card, memory card reader, printer, that it is linux compatible before buying!  A few minutes of research saves hours of frustration later!  Buying older (and cheaper) hardware tends to be more compatible.

I'd agree that ubuntu isn't really ready for prime time on retail PCs.  When things go wrong in linux (which in my experience is rare), they do tend to go wrong in a spectacular way, needing quite a bit of knowledge to get it fixed!

Luckily the software I mainly use comes in linux flavours. My photography is at a stage where the likes of Lightroom et all would be overkill for my needs, so I use digikam for organising photos, and gimp for editing! (I prefer getting shots right in camera rather than hours photoshopping them).

I do have Win XP on my samsung NC10 netbook.  Have been tempted on dual booting that with ubuntu netbook edition as I don't really use the netbook that much.

At the end of the day the computer user should have a look at what software they need to use, then find the appropraite OS to use.

Perhaps someday I'll win the lottery (despite not playing it!) and I'll buy a nice mac + lightroom, aperture, photoshop etc.  But for now, my budget is limited so ubuntu + free software ftw!

Re: Ubuntu, why it is crap
« Reply #119 on: 06 May, 2011, 10:33:33 am »
At the end of the day the computer user should have a look at what software they need to use, then find the appropraite OS to use.

Nail, head.

You choose the software you need then an OS that supports it.
I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that.

itsbruce

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Re: Ubuntu, why it is crap
« Reply #120 on: 06 May, 2011, 10:35:13 am »
I am also bemused by the "oh, you'll need to do a complete reinstall for that" comments.  I don't have 2 days spare to sit mesmerised by a PC monitor reinstalling software suites....  I sometimes wonder if the posters on here actually USE their computers, or do they just play with them.  To me, its a tool to do a job, and sometimes entertain me a little, just like my TV or my camera.  I don't want to have to spend months learning how to use it, there's enough of a learning curve with the software applications, the OS should just be a load up and use, experience, surely?

If anybody made that kind of comment, they're quite wrong.  The major Linux distributions are extremely upgradable; the joke about the Debian installer used to be that it was so bad because nobody ever used it more than once.  Most problems you may encounter on a Linux system can be solved without even a reboot, let alone a reinstall, in a way that has never been true with Windows.  I have several machines which have gone from Debian version 2.1 all the way through to 6.0 without a reinstall (and a major upgrade usually doesn't even require a reboot).  Not only that, but those systems are not full of cruft and bloat because I can easily identify which package every installed file belongs to, which libraries or other dependencies are no longer needed, which packages were automatically installed to fulfill other dependencies - and clear them all out*.  If I choose to, there are GUI tools to make it even simpler.  A windows box which had gone through the equivalent set of upgrades without a reinstall from scratch would almost certainly be unusable by now. 

That said, the quality of new Ubuntu releases has been a little patchy, of late.

The last few pages of this thread have been about one person's bad experience with one hardware/software combination.  The web is full of examples of people suffering the same kind of problem with Windows and when you find that Windows won't boot past a certain point, there's often sod-all you can do about it because it doesn't have the loose coupling between the core and the GUI.  The fact that there's a CLI you can drop back to to fix things - even in the boot loader - isn't a fail, as somebody bizarrely tried to assert.  There are perfectly good Linux GUIs that allow you to browse your network and mount remote shares without resorting to the command line (another claim made in ignorance, above), but the things you can do through the GUI are also controllable (and open to inspection) through the CLI, giving you more power if you want it.  In Windows, if somebody didn't design a tick box on a dialog box for it, you probably can't do it (you might be able to fix it by hacking around the registry, sometimes, but that hardly counts as shiny GUI friendliness, does it?)

(Oh, and OS X can't really be compared to either Windows or Linux in this context, since it is only intended to be installed on a limited range of officially supported hardware, not the massive range available to the other two).

None of the explicitly user-friendly Linux distributions have quite the finished polish of Windows or OS X but they're very usable for an increasingly large number of people who do not class themselves as geeks at all.  I am surprised that Ubuntu doesn't automatically configure a boot option to load with the lowest-common-denominator VGA/VESA video driver.  It's not a daunting task to create "Safe Mode" boot options for Linux.

Quote
So, how usable is Linux for me?  Its not, its a total fail, however much I want to find a replacement for the products of the evil empire.  Win7 offered me a service pack yesterday, it just worked. Yes, its huge, its bloated, and it costs money, but it does what I need it to do.


At the end of the day, if the vendor doesn't release the software in a Linux version, they just don't.  Sometimes there's an equivalent that does have a Linux version, a surprising amount of Windows software can be run under Linux using Wine, but some stuff just isn't available.  That may, depending on your current requirements, make it not the right choice for you, but it's no more a "total fail" than the unavailability of Final Cut Pro for Windows.


*I don't think Windows users always realise how much they have just become accustomed to, in terms of limitations and inflexibility, or that people coming the other way might (and do) say "What? You can't do *what*?!"
I saw the best minds of my generation destroyed by madness, starving hysterical naked: Allen Ginsberg
The best minds of my generation are thinking about how to make people click ads: Jeff Hammerbacher

border-rider

Re: Ubuntu, why it is crap
« Reply #121 on: 06 May, 2011, 11:01:51 am »
I'd agree

We have a bunch of Ubuntu machines here, one dual-boot with Vista and one machine that runs just XP MCE.  The ones where I spend most time faffing about and drumming my fingers whilst it sits there doing nothing are the Win machines.  Ubuntu mostly just works these days.

This Dell laptop I'm using now - put in the CD, off it went and that was it.  Ubuntu was described a couple of years ago in the Gruaniad as the most granny-friendly OS there is.  It's stable, easy to get yourself ouyt of a mess and hard to get into one

Mrs MV's 70 year-old totally non-techie mum has Thinkpad that  I put the last LTS version on, and it works faultlessly for her without endless reboots & AV conflicts.  Her husband's Win machine, on the other hand, I seem to spend half my life hacking about with...

Woofage

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Re: Ubuntu, why it is crap
« Reply #122 on: 06 May, 2011, 11:35:22 am »
Her husband's Win machine, on the other hand, I seem to spend half my life hacking about with...

TBF to MS, IME problems with windows are usually down to either poor installation, additional "utilities" installed by either the user or the hardware vendor or crap h/w drivers for cheap 'n' dodgy devices. I've had loads of win machines at work and the only time I ever got a BSOD was when a "helpful" IT technician gave me a new (beta?) copy of IE ::-).

But, hang on a minute, I'm a Linux user!

I sometimes wonder if the posters on here actually USE their computers, or do they just play with them.  To me, its a tool to do a job, and sometimes entertain me a little, just like my TV or my camera.  I don't want to have to spend months learning how to use it, there's enough of a learning curve with the software applications, the OS should just be a load up and use, experience, surely?

My office computer (that I am using now) is an essential tool for earning my living as a self-employed person so I am unlikely to choose software that lets me down. That's why I have Linux ;). I accept the point about a learning curve, but as a predominantly Windows (mainly in the past now) and Linux user I struggle with my occasional encounters with Apple PCs. It's down to what you're used to. They're all computers and they all do roughly the same job.

Think of it like the choices between Campagnolo, Shimano, SRAM etc.
Pen Pusher

Re: Ubuntu, why it is crap
« Reply #123 on: 06 May, 2011, 12:33:55 pm »
Ubuntu has been getting steadily worse on my Samsung N130 as upgrades have progressed.

Worked fine on 9.04 after a bit of fiddling.
Worked OK ish on 10.04, but the wirelesss wasn't very happy coming back to life after suspend - maybe 50%
Then there was 11.04. Wireless never recovers from suspend. Occasional random logoffs. Occasional shutdowns. And the Unity interface has many annoying problems.

Roll on 12.04

Re: Ubuntu, why it is crap
« Reply #124 on: 06 May, 2011, 02:16:31 pm »
Checked the price of Windows 7 this week in Bangkok at 112  Quid equivalent, Ubuntu - free.

No contest then :D

Unfortunately, my Wife needed Windows for some of her work with the gubberment so we bought a Notebook  with a Windows 7  starter kit, part of which expires very quickly (60 hours I think) including Office which I promptly replaced with a complete but earlier version.  Another  example of Microsoft's marketing tricks :demon: but it suited what she needed at this time.
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