Author Topic: Volcano Grounds 'Planes  (Read 54108 times)

Regulator

  • That's Councillor Regulator to you...
Re: Volcano Grounds 'Planes
« Reply #275 on: 19 April, 2010, 07:04:51 am »
Airlines are starting to declare that the skies are safe for flying...  They've sent up empty planes and declared that they came back "without a scratch".    The Germans and the Dutch are spearheading this little campaign and putting pressure on their various air safety agencies.  :facepalm:

The Met Office sent up a plane - and it hit a dense patch of ash.  Significant damage - and unable to say where these will be.

Fine, if the Germans and the Dutch want to fly, let them - but not in our airspace.
Quote from: clarion
I completely agree with Reg.

Green Party Councillor

Rig of Jarkness

  • An Englishman abroad
Re: Volcano Grounds 'Planes
« Reply #276 on: 19 April, 2010, 07:07:06 am »
Apparently the last time this volcano erupted, in the 70's, it went on for 6 months.  The thing is, there were plenty of planes flying across Europe in those days too, so how come we didn't have this outcome then ?
Aero but not dynamic

Rapples

Re: Volcano Grounds 'Planes
« Reply #277 on: 19 April, 2010, 07:11:14 am »
Jeremy knows why ;)

Hounded by the ash cloud on my escape from Colditz to Blighty | Jeremy Clarkson - Times Online
Quote
It won’t be a volcano that ends man’s existence on this planet. It’ll be the no-win no-fee lawyers. They are the ones who brought Europe to a halt last week. They are the ones who made a simple trip from Berlin to London into a five-country, all-day hammer blow on your licence fee. They are the ones who must be stopped.

David Martin

  • Thats Dr Oi You thankyouverymuch
Re: Volcano Grounds 'Planes
« Reply #278 on: 19 April, 2010, 08:48:03 am »
Airlines are starting to declare that the skies are safe for flying...  They've sent up empty plance and
The Met Office sent up a plane - and it hit a dense patch of ash.  Significant damage - and unable to say where these will be.

Fine, if the Germans and the Dutch want to fly, let them - but not in our airspace.

For once I was impressed by the BBC newsreader. He pulled the FlyBe boss apart on this. 'You sent your plane into a gap in the clouds. BA and Lufthansa flew planes under the cloud. Noone knows how the cloud shifts and you could end up flying into a gap that closes on you as plane radar cannot detect the ash clouds and you end up in a dense patch of ash. What happens then?'

Well briefed and good questioning.
"By creating we think. By living we learn" - Patrick Geddes

Charlotte

  • Dissolute libertine
  • Here's to ol' D.H. Lawrence...
    • charlottebarnes.co.uk
Re: Volcano Grounds 'Planes
« Reply #279 on: 19 April, 2010, 09:15:11 am »
Apparently, John Cleese paid 30,000 kroner (about £3.3k) for a Noggy taxi to take him from Oslo to Brussels where he had a Eurostar seat home booked.  I have visions of him reprising the role of headmaster Mr Stimpson from Clockwise...

Quote
It's not the despair, Laura. I can take the despair. It's the hope I can't stand.

;D
Commercial, Editorial and PR Photographer - www.charlottebarnes.co.uk

clarion

  • Tyke
Re: Volcano Grounds 'Planes
« Reply #280 on: 19 April, 2010, 09:17:00 am »
I camped all weekend near the Gatwick flightpath.  Lovely clear skies, satellite watching on Saturday night, and all that spoiled it was the noisy cars zooming too fast up the narrow lane.
Getting there...

Re: Volcano Grounds 'Planes
« Reply #281 on: 19 April, 2010, 09:19:52 am »
Apparently the last time this volcano erupted, in the 70's, it went on for 6 months.  The thing is, there were plenty of planes flying across Europe in those days too, so how come we didn't have this outcome then ?

It doesn't keep putting the same type of crap high into the atmosphere all the time (its worse at the start) and also it depends on which direction the wind is blowing as to if it affects Europe.
I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that.

Re: Volcano Grounds 'Planes
« Reply #282 on: 19 April, 2010, 09:27:45 am »
I think that what is making airlines fidgety is the fact that the decision to fly or not is currently based on a judgment call because there is limited [old] or no data to say what is a safe threshold [this is a fact; I am not questioning the current decision]. As it stands it is: ash = grounding. With the amplitude of the crisis there is more pressure to refine that criterion; in other words people may wish they had spent more research money on this earlier on, in terms of the modelling but also on engines; hence the current tests. It seems that what governments and airlines are working on is the definition of safe corridors and windows over and during which to allow flights. I don't think airlines are declaring the skies clear, they are under financial pressures and are trying to evaluate the impact that the ash cloud could have on their hardware and their operation, with safety in mind (this is very, very much at the core of that industry). This is why AF, Lufthansa and KLM flew test flights this WE; and to test the "window" approach I mentioned here above. Having said that the accuracy of the model being what it is, it is not easy! I also understand that we are looking at continental and southern Europe only.  
Frenchie - Train à Grande Vitesse

Re: Volcano Grounds 'Planes
« Reply #283 on: 19 April, 2010, 09:33:42 am »
I camped all weekend near the Gatwick flightpath.  Lovely clear skies, satellite watching on Saturday night, and all that spoiled it was the noisy cars zooming too fast up the narrow lane.
Wildly OT, but which campsite ?
Rust never sleeps

Re: Volcano Grounds 'Planes
« Reply #284 on: 19 April, 2010, 09:34:10 am »
Airlines are starting to declare that the skies are safe for flying...  They've sent up empty plance and
The Met Office sent up a plane - and it hit a dense patch of ash.  Significant damage - and unable to say where these will be.

Fine, if the Germans and the Dutch want to fly, let them - but not in our airspace.

For once I was impressed by the BBC newsreader. He pulled the FlyBe boss apart on this. 'You sent your plane into a gap in the clouds. BA and Lufthansa flew planes under the cloud. Noone knows how the cloud shifts and you could end up flying into a gap that closes on you as plane radar cannot detect the ash clouds and you end up in a dense patch of ash. What happens then?'


Large gas turbine jet engines are designed to operate (best) at certain altitudes, say 30,000', which is a major issue right now. Turboprop engines can fly lower, reasonably efficiently I believe. One point being discussed is whether to allow turboprops at lower altitudes I heard. For part of FlyBe's fleet this could work (except for their EMBRAERs I guess). I don't know whether this is what the company spokesman had in mind though. Weather forecasters are also trying to define corridors snd time windows (see above). Finally it was proposed to have sentinels in the skies to monitor the viability of these windows (planes equipped with the right sensors to support the model predictions). What I am trying to say is that this hypothesis is not entirely "wacky"; though how feasible it is in practise I don't know.
Frenchie - Train à Grande Vitesse

clarion

  • Tyke
Re: Volcano Grounds 'Planes
« Reply #285 on: 19 April, 2010, 09:38:39 am »
I camped all weekend near the Gatwick flightpath.  Lovely clear skies, satellite watching on Saturday night, and all that spoiled it was the noisy cars zooming too fast up the narrow lane.
Wildly OT, but which campsite ?

Not a campsite as such.  We were with the Surrey DA of the Camping & Caravanning Club at Blacklands Farm, a Girl Guide activity centre above Weir Wood Reservoir, near East Grinstead.
Getting there...

TimC

  • Old blerk sometimes onabike.
Re: Volcano Grounds 'Planes
« Reply #286 on: 19 April, 2010, 09:46:53 am »
I'd rather an 'overreaction' which is speculation albeit perhaps informed, than a few airliners dropping out of the sky.   The very reason that air travel is so 'safe' is purely because risks are not taken.  

I'd rather a safety grounding than a flight path going down with the loss of plane after plane.


On what evidence do you base your contention that, if we fly, it will result in aluminium raining from the sky? Saftey regulation by 'just in case' measures inevitably result in nothing at all happening. How safe is safe enough? using this methodology, there is no such thing as safe enough. Yet safety, in anything, is always a compromise between risk and reward. Intelligently applied safety regulation is dynamic and relies on evidence, not assumption.

In this case, we have an ancient rule that says 'in the event of volcanic debris, you shall not fly'. It was never written, but it comes from engine manufacturers' advice that volcanic debris is highly damaging and not to be entered. However, that advice was issued when our only way of detecting such debris was visual. A volcano erupted, we could see the plume and we slapped a 200nm safety zone around the visible plume and said 'don't fly in that'. Wherever that rule has been applied and complied with, we have never had an incident due to volcanic debris ingestion. Now we are in a situation where we view and measure volcanic debris using millimetric radars, thermal imaging, and satellites working in all kinds of radiation bands. We then stick that data in the most powerful computers we have and ask them, 'where is this stuff now, where is it going, and where could it be in 48 hours from now?'. Then we bung a 200nm buffer zone around that and say 'don't fly in that, 'cos you might die'. The inevitable result is you wipe out a quarter of the globe as far as available airspace goes, without a shred of evidence that doing so has avoided risk or improved safety. All you've done is extended the previously sensible avoidance area to something much, much larger. Because you can. And woe betide anyone who argues otherwise, because they are the Agents Of Satan and must not be trusted.

Bollocks.

At last, we have people and machinery getting out there and measuring the empirical effects of this stuff. We also have NERC using its terrific technology in the same airspace to see what's there. NERC say, 'there's lots of muck here'. Aircraft operators and engineers say, 'but it's in such small concentrations it's doing nothing bad to our engines'. So, politicians, what now?

Expect stalemate and a lot of bottom-shuffling for a good deal longer. Anticipate bankruptcies and job losses - and not just in aviation. Look forward to an eventual pragmatic solution that will acknowledge that the current regime is too restrictive, and regretting the 'inconvenience' of its application, but saying everything's ok now - please get back in your aeroplanes. Wonder at the fact that all your holiday jets are now flown by American airlines, 'cos there's no British ones left.

Jaded

  • The Codfather
  • Formerly known as Jaded
Re: Volcano Grounds 'Planes
« Reply #287 on: 19 April, 2010, 09:50:05 am »
Wonder at the fact that all your holiday jets are now flown by American airlines, 'cos there's no British ones left.

Alternatively, curse yourself and your media and your fellow passengers for demanding stupidly low prices that then created an unsustainable level of flying?
It is simpler than it looks.

Re: Volcano Grounds 'Planes
« Reply #288 on: 19 April, 2010, 09:50:41 am »
I camped all weekend near the Gatwick flightpath.  Lovely clear skies, satellite watching on Saturday night, and all that spoiled it was the noisy cars zooming too fast up the narrow lane.
Wildly OT, but which campsite ?

Not a campsite as such.  We were with the Surrey DA of the Camping & Caravanning Club at Blacklands Farm, a Girl Guide activity centre above Weir Wood Reservoir, near East Grinstead.
Cool !  That must have been fantastically peaceful as compared to normal.
Rust never sleeps

Re: Volcano Grounds 'Planes
« Reply #289 on: 19 April, 2010, 09:52:13 am »
Jeremy knows why ;)

Hounded by the ash cloud on my escape from Colditz to Blighty | Jeremy Clarkson - Times Online
Quote
It won’t be a volcano that ends man’s existence on this planet. It’ll be the no-win no-fee lawyers. They are the ones who brought Europe to a halt last week. They are the ones who made a simple trip from Berlin to London into a five-country, all-day hammer blow on your licence fee. They are the ones who must be stopped.

Christ!  Is that sort of crap now published in the Times?   A racist, sexist, nay-saying lager lout expressing his bigoted opinions in what was the flagship broadsheet!  

Airlines are starting to declare that the skies are safe for flying...  They've sent up empty plance and
The Met Office sent up a plane - and it hit a dense patch of ash.  Significant damage - and unable to say where these will be.

Fine, if the Germans and the Dutch want to fly, let them - but not in our airspace.

For once I was impressed by the BBC newsreader. He pulled the FlyBe boss apart on this. 'You sent your plane into a gap in the clouds. BA and Lufthansa flew planes under the cloud. Noone knows how the cloud shifts and you could end up flying into a gap that closes on you as plane radar cannot detect the ash clouds and you end up in a dense patch of ash. What happens then?'

Well briefed and good questioning.

I saw something about monitoring with a heavily modified plane with all sorts of sensors hanging from the wings.   Science and caution over vested interest any day for me.  

TimC

  • Old blerk sometimes onabike.
Re: Volcano Grounds 'Planes
« Reply #290 on: 19 April, 2010, 09:53:25 am »
Wonder at the fact that all your holiday jets are now flown by American airlines, 'cos there's no British ones left.

Alternatively, curse yourself and your media and your fellow passengers for demanding stupidly low prices that then created an unsustainable level of flying?

WTF has that to do with a bloody volcano? Listen, aviation exists. It follows commercial imperatives. You are not going to wish it away. Once this is all over, things will return to something like the previous normality - but names and faces will have changed. And for absolutely no good reason whatsoever.

border-rider

Re: Volcano Grounds 'Planes
« Reply #291 on: 19 April, 2010, 10:00:44 am »
And for absolutely no good reason whatsoever.

I think it's probably inescapable that Northern European-based airlines are at somewhat of a disadvantage compare to those based on other parts of the planet. With the best will in the world, a damn great eruption is going to cause them business/financial/logistics issues that the Americans can largely sidestep.

Are we being precautionary ? Yes, quite rightly. Overly so ? Maybe, and as has been said there'll be profound pressure to review the current advice.  If the evidence supports a change then fair enough.  If it doesn't, or there isn't any yet, then changing the advice prematurely might be considered brave.

Chris S

Re: Volcano Grounds 'Planes
« Reply #292 on: 19 April, 2010, 10:05:29 am »
I bet pprune is busy.

*checks*

Yup  :D

TimC

  • Old blerk sometimes onabike.
Re: Volcano Grounds 'Planes
« Reply #293 on: 19 April, 2010, 10:09:07 am »
No-one (or no-one sensible) is arguing for a precipitate and 'brave' rewriting of the current advice. But it has become blindingly obvious that the current advice has not kept up with the technology for detecting what that advice applies to! The situation has not previously arisen in such a densly-aviated area, and now a great many people are going back to their desks to determine what exactly they want that advice to mean, how it should be framed and defined, and how it should accommodate ever more capable detection technology.

TimC

  • Old blerk sometimes onabike.
Re: Volcano Grounds 'Planes
« Reply #294 on: 19 April, 2010, 10:09:59 am »
I bet pprune is busy.

*checks*

Yup  :D

It's keeping me busy too. But I have time on my hands just now.

border-rider

Re: Volcano Grounds 'Planes
« Reply #295 on: 19 April, 2010, 10:14:20 am »
No-one (or no-one sensible) is arguing for a precipitate and 'brave' rewriting of the current advice. But it has become blindingly obvious that the current advice has not kept up with the technology for detecting what that advice applies to! The situation has not previously arisen in such a densly-aviated area, and now a great many people are going back to their desks to determine what exactly they want that advice to mean, how it should be framed and defined, and how it should accommodate ever more capable detection technology.

So we can expect the advice to be revised when the evidence is in and the analysis done. Just as it should be :)

Maybe this should all have been done beforehand, but I'll bet there are many, many things where there is cautious advice in place that's based on old best-guess analysis, and that no-one worries about until it bites them on the arse.


Jaded

  • The Codfather
  • Formerly known as Jaded
Re: Volcano Grounds 'Planes
« Reply #296 on: 19 April, 2010, 10:16:48 am »
WTF has that to do with a bloody volcano?

The volcano has exposed how perilous some business plans are? Although to be fair, we do already know that from the number of failures of airlines.
It is simpler than it looks.

Re: Volcano Grounds 'Planes
« Reply #297 on: 19 April, 2010, 10:18:45 am »
WTF has that to do with a bloody volcano?

The volcano has exposed how perilous some business plans are?

Most businesses would be challenged given the appropriate cas de force majeure, wouldn't they?! I don't think this is a very solid argument to be fair!
Frenchie - Train à Grande Vitesse

TimC

  • Old blerk sometimes onabike.
Re: Volcano Grounds 'Planes
« Reply #298 on: 19 April, 2010, 10:30:49 am »
WTF has that to do with a bloody volcano?

The volcano has exposed how perilous some business plans are? Although to be fair, we do already know that from the number of failures of airlines.

Show me a business that can survive for long with no revenue but extra outgoings. Show me a business plan that can survive that. It would be worth no more than an election manifesto.

Jaded

  • The Codfather
  • Formerly known as Jaded
Re: Volcano Grounds 'Planes
« Reply #299 on: 19 April, 2010, 10:33:40 am »
So they are all going to go bust then  ???
It is simpler than it looks.