Yet another question about tyres - to M+ or not to M+?

[CrinklyLion]

Well, I finally had my first experience of fixing a puncture at the roadside on yesterdays ride.  A whacking gurt big thorn, right through the middle of the puncture resistant band on the front Bontrager Race Lite hardcase that the Very Lovely Valencia came with.  Fortunately I'd got someone to show me how to deal with the security skewers and getting the wheel out and back in, and Wheldrake's answer to bicycle repair man was on hand here to help get the blinking tyre back on the rim, and acted as a convenient workstand when I put the wheel back in.  One important lesson has been thoroughly learnt, and today I finally went and bought the spare tubes I've been promising myself for months 

I did notice, whilst I had the wheel off and was looking closely, that the tyre had picked up a fair bit of embedded detritus along the way - tiny flints and shards of glass in the main.  I do ride quite a lot on York's gloriously-festooned-with-smashed-bottles cycle paths, but I was a bit shocked by quite how much carp there was in there. 

I've had these tyres from new, got the bike in December (although the weather got in the way of any decent riding in the first month) and don't think I can have done more than 400 miles on them.  In defense of the Racelites, the hardcase obviously works - the front was as flat as a flat thing when I noticed, the tube had a hole in it so big that it was going down almost as fast as I was pumping it up when I was looking for the damage and I still, somehow, managed to avoid a snakebite.  But I'm hoping to go on the northern FNRttC, and don't want to be the the slowest person there AND one who gets a xillion visitations....

Given that I am as slow as a slow thing from a slow thing factory already, would I even notice the extra weight of a M+, and does the panel think that the extra puncture protection could be worth it anyway given that I'm most definitely not going to be winning any prizes for my tyre changing speed? 

[clarion]

M+.  Don't even bother thinking twice about it.  Unless you like fixing p*nct*res.

[Butterfly]

Yes M+.
I commuted 4200 miles last year without a puncture through the glass festooned streets of south London. I changed to narrower ones on 1st January which I don't like as much, but I've had 1200 puncture free miles on them. They had a LOT of embedded gravel and glass when they came off, but no punctures. My Bontrager Race lights on the fast bike were replaced after about 1000 miles I should think - they were shreaded.  

[CrinklyLion]

M+.  Don't even bother thinking twice about it.  Unless you like fixing p*nct*res.

Somehow, I had a sneaking suspicion that that would be your answer to this particular question  

My understanding is that the marathons require much thumb strength (or Pippa's fancy high heels) and a light to moderate sprinkling of sweariness to get back on, but since I found the racelites damn near impossible to do I'm discounting that disadvantage as equally uh-oh for both.  So until someone invents a cheap, sturdy and fast-rolling tyre that puts itself back on the rim when you glare at sternly, my prime considerations are puncture protection and not being so slow that I actually go backwards.

[Ariadne]

Hmmmmmmm.

To go against the consensus, slightly, I tend to use just normal Marathons (I think they're just called Marathons, I'll check) rather than M+. I considered this long and hard and decided I would rather have occasional (and they are only very occasional) punctures that i could fix, than one catastrophic one that I can't. No matter how great the tyre, valves still tear, things still go wrong, and if I can't get the tyre on or off by myself, in the middle of nowhere, I'm stuffed.

[Ariadne]

...and now I read your reply properly and see that you're not so worried about getting them on and off yourself. Okay! The M+ tyres are apparently great

[CrinklyLion]

Well, I can guarantee that sooner or later I'll have to do it, so tyres that are actually impossible to do would be bad.  As opposed to tyres that, with further practice, will merely require 2 hours or swearing and hurty-thumbness, which I can probably live with.

[Basil]

I have M+ on the rear only.  'cos I don't like getting Ps in the rear.

[mrcharly-YHT]

Not having had an M+, I can't be certain of this.  However, IME, NOTHING stops hawthorn.

If you think York's streets are bad, you should try Leeds. Monday mornings through harehills . . .

[CrinklyLion]

Oh, I absolutely agree that the streets of York aren't too bad.  It's the cyclepaths that are covered in glass, I find    But they are a very useful way of covering the miles with a small person...

[Biggsy]

M+ are great for commuting/utility cycling or for anyone who really can't fix a puncture, but I think a nice bike for recreational riding deserves better-rolling tyres, no matter what your speed is.

However, they do not require much thumb strength (or high heels!) if cable ties or toe straps and Specialized Pry Baby levers are used.  Use the cable ties (pref re-useables) to keep the last part of the tyre in place as it's fitted.  It also helps to use an inner tube a size narrower than normal to keep it completely inside the tyre during the process.

[CrinklyLion]

I have no n+1 money or storage space, so my commuter/utility bike is my nice bike for recreational riding   Mind you, it's only in the past few months since I got her that I have deliberately gone out for bike rides 'unnecessarily'.  She's slowly converting me from being an out-and-out utility rider...

[Biggsy]

I have no n+1 money or storage space, so my commuter/utility bike is my nice bike for recreational riding

Ah well, that is a good enough excuse reason to have M+ then

[pdm]

M+ for commuting every time! (Although I also have some M Supremes on one bike)
Just replaced a rear wheel 622x25 M+ after wearing it to the blue puncture proofing layer having done 10,000km without a single deflation. The front wheel is still going strong (also sans deflation) at seems likely to reach 15,000km+ at this rate of wear.
The weight on the 25 and 28 sizes is acceptable - I do a lot of climbing and hold my own most times I meet weight weenie roadies  

[Kim]

I'm in the normal non-plus Marathons camp, for pretty much the reasons Ariadne gives.  They seem admirably puncture-resistant (I ploughed straight through the pile of broken glass - tinkling noises and everything - outside the cafe at the end of this month's FNRttC before Charlotte swept it up, without any ill effect.), and they don't require a superhuman effort to fit.  I'd probably go for M+ on a dedicated commuting or folding bike, though.

If you're slow, you won't notice (well, you might notice, but you won't care about - if you see what I mean) the extra weight.  I believe M+ is supposed to have slightly higher rolling resistance, but in the real world I expect that to be lost in the noise of aerodynamics and headwind.

They're both excellent tyres.

Hopefully I'll see you on the northern FNRttC

[CrinklyLion]

Anyway, given that I've lost a stone  since I got the Very Lovely Valencia, I reckon I can afford the extra weight on the tyres!

[Kim]

Anyway, given that I've lost a stone  since I got the Very Lovely Valencia, I reckon I can afford the extra weight on the tyres!

My logic exactly.

[citoyen]

M+ are great for commuting/utility cycling or for anyone who really can't fix a puncture, but I think a nice bike for recreational riding deserves better-rolling tyres, no matter what your speed is.

I would second this. If you're mainly using the bike for commuting, M+ are a good idea, though if you do want something a bit sportier, Conti GP 4 Seasons are my favourite compromise, being much lighter but still reasonably resilient.

M+ do offer unbeatable protection against punctures. I pulled an enormous shard of glass out of the M+ on my Brompton the other day that would have sliced most tyres in two. Hawthorn schmawthorn!

d.

[LEE]

Regular Marathons for me every time.

They are cheap and very reliable (£12 occasionally, £15 typically).  I've used 26x 1.5, 26x 1.75, 700x 28 and 700x25.

I ride mainly on Hampshire/Wilshire flint which will slice through an M+ as easily as an M so I don't pay the premium.

The one time I tried something else (because my new Condor Tempo came with Conti Gatorskins) I had my first ever impact/pinch puncture (like a gun going off) followed a few hours later by the same tyre getting slashed by a flint and almost ruined.  2 incidents, on the same 200km ride, that I would never expect with a regular Marathon.  Possibly 2 punctures in 2 months but not 2 catastrophic failures in a couple of hours.

Regular marathons hardly need tyre levers to get on/off and they take decent pressure so they run quickly enough for me to use them on 600k rides.  Nobody is going to use them for Time-Trialling but I hate fixing punctures in the dark and rain.

[Biggsy]

I ride mainly on Hampshire/Wilshire flint which will slice through an M+ as easily as an M

The flint may cut into the tyre just as easily, but it won't go all the way through the M+ because the puncture resistant layer is so very deep.  You can actually push a drawing pin into an M+ and it will not puncture (at least for the 700x35 version).  I've seen this with my own eyes, as well as on Schwalbe's advert.  The rider was wondering what the tapping noise was!

And as for the theory that even a small shard of flint or glass continues to work its way into a tyre until the inner tube is punctured: well, it just doesn't happen with M+, in what I've experienced and witnessed.  You can ride over broken bottle glass daily for a number of years without getting a single puncture.

[Crumbling Nick]

Another vote for ordinary Marathons. Personal experience is about 4 000 miles per puncture, 10 000 miles life for rear tyre, probably double that for front, but not yet proven since the oldest has recently suffered a fatal cut through the tread at 17 000 miles. Removal & replacement on Mavic Open Pros, T221s & DRC ST19s (and several 27" rims in the 20th century) has always been easy -  much easier than other equivalent makes that I have helped to repair during organised rides. Sizing was accurate enough that they also worked well at high pressures on 27" rims without hooked beads.

The problem is that they are BORING. They are/were also quite cheap. The Schwalbe marketing team seem to be working hard on solving both these problems.

I can't pass judgement on rolling resistance. It's difficult to make sensible comparisons if normal tyre life is a few years. And so far I have failed to find quantitative info about the sort of tyres I use - are we talking about 5 mph differences, 0.5 mph differences or 0.05mph differences?

[MacB]

Both my commuting and utility bikes have M+ tyres and haven't yet punctured after a combined 5000 miles, in fact they don't even look worn. Regarding speed differentials between tyres I don't have much info but can give some personal experience, though there are variables in bike weights. When fit and riding a lot of miles regularly I would see:-

Commuter bike - hub gear - total weight unladen 35lbs - M+ 700x35 tyres - average speed over 40 mile round trip commute 14-15.5mph though this included panniers, guards and rack.

Weekend bike - 9 speed triple - total weight unladen 22lbs - Schwalbe Lugano 700x23 tyres - average speed on rides up to 50 miles 16-18mph, no guards and saddlepack only.

Using both bikes on 10 mile local loop, only small saddle pack on each, but leaving rack and guards on commuter. This saw the speed differential close up to about 1.5mph difference. Though the test was far from scientific, I'm sure I probably expended more energy on the heavier bike. But this was enough, plus a pothole incident, to persuade me to go to a more robust wheelset and larger tyres on the weekend bike. That now runs on 700x32 tyres, not M+ as it wasn't for puncture protection I made the change but rather the difference in comfort. I know there'll be a speed sacrifice but, as I don't intend to race, the additional comfort on long rides is well worth it for me.

Others will vary, this just works for me at my fitness levels, age and limited cyling ambitions.

[rogerzilla]

I use M+ on the Brompton and the Inbred.  They are tremendously heavy but have been reliable.  Rolling resistance is acceptable and not really any worse than Stelvios (which aren't the best-rolling tyre themselves).

[Polar Bear]

I'm a great Marathon fan and we have them on the tourers and one of the tandems.   I can only recall one puncture¹ with standard marathons since 2002 between us.   We might not do the gargantuan mileages some here do but the tyres have survived manfully the detritus of urban roads in places like Newcastle (C2C) London, Birmingham, Coventry, etc., as well as the seasonal hedge clippings and moron bottle smashing that even our lovely countryside offers.

I do find though that it makes sense to give the tyres a once over on a weekly basis to remove detritus.  Where a larger hole appears I tend to squirt a dab of cheap 'superglue substitute' in the hole² whilst the tyre is still inflated.    

I acquired some M+ for tandem No.1 but to date have resisted putting them on.   They were bought in fact for a medium term plan of taking it touring.   Extra peace of mind so to speak.

When I get to cycle commute again I will be using marathons.

¹ On my first C2C cycling through the rougher end of Newcastle.  It was a 700c x 32 tyre on my ill-fated Orbit tourer.   The tyre manfully resisted, indeed did not initially deflate.  Overnight it slowly went down.   It took a good deal of investigation to finally locate the tiny glass shard that had embedded itself almost invisibly from outside and only just poking through the inside when pressure was applied with thumb on the tread.    

² Six tubes in a packet at all good 99p and £1 shops.    

[kevinp]

I also use the standard Marathon on my road bike but find that I don't get such a high mileage out of them as others do, I seem to get around 2000 - 25000, maybe I pump them up too hard.

I also use marathon+ on my MTB and have ridden through lots of hedge trimmings on the roads around here and they have never failed me....prepares to push bike home tonight