Author Topic: If audax isn't competitive, then why bother with validation at all?  (Read 15525 times)

Re: If audax isn't competitive, then why bother with validation at all?
« Reply #50 on: May 22, 2010, 04:09:34 pm »

I log on Bikejournal because I am an obsessive compulsive when it comes to competitiveness  ;D

That reminds me - must log that 1km ride to the video shop.

The only ones I don't log is when I go up and down the village in testing mode after fettling  ;D

simonp

  • Omnomnomnipotent.
Re: If audax isn't competitive, then why bother with validation at all?
« Reply #51 on: May 23, 2010, 05:46:39 pm »

I log on Bikejournal because I am an obsessive compulsive when it comes to competitiveness  ;D

That reminds me - must log that 1km ride to the video shop.

The only ones I don't log is when I go up and down the village in testing mode after fettling  ;D

Why ever not?

Wowbagger

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Re: If audax isn't competitive, then why bother with validation at all?
« Reply #52 on: May 23, 2010, 05:57:42 pm »
Grub thinks more of his fans will see his miles on BikeJournal than AukWeb.  ;)

Fans?  You're having a larf  ;D

You remember a couple of years ago when you lost that brevet card, Grub? I nicked it and sold your autograph on Ebay.
Eating's a serious business. Don't bollocks around wagging your tail.

Re: If audax isn't competitive, then why bother with validation at all?
« Reply #53 on: May 24, 2010, 08:01:46 pm »
Here's something from the US for those of a competitive nature (if only with yourself) Cyclos Montagnards -- R80/R70/R60 Rules

Quote
The R80 honor requires completion of a brevet series (200, 300, 400 and 600 km) with each brevet completed in 80% or less of the maximum allowed time limit. The R70 and R60 honors are for those who complete the brevets in 70% or 60% of the allowed time, respectively.

mattc

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Re: If audax isn't competitive, then why bother with validation at all?
« Reply #54 on: May 24, 2010, 08:17:05 pm »
Instinctive reaction:
deeply uncomfortable with that. At least if they are riding regular events with other "normal" riders; they're welcome to run their own events with lower time limits.

But they're USAian so maybe a different ethos applies, I don't know ...

(Remember the PBP where the vedettes were fined for generall ill manners at controls?)
Has never ridden RAAM
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Re: If audax isn't competitive, then why bother with validation at all?
« Reply #55 on: May 24, 2010, 08:34:12 pm »
I would also feel uncomfortable with this being an AUK-approved "award", and certainly wasn't suggesting that. I came across it whilst reading some ultracycling reports that I was using to put together a newsletter.

I don't see a problem with it as a personal challenge though - as long as normal standards of decent behaviour are adhered to.


JStone

  • E=112
Re: If audax isn't competitive, then why bother with validation at all?
« Reply #56 on: May 24, 2010, 09:03:55 pm »
Here's something from the US for those of a competitive nature (if only with yourself) Cyclos Montagnards -- R80/R70/R60 Rules
...

Interesting to read their fundamentalist approach to battery-powered lights: "Battery powered headlights use energy that is not generated by the rider. Thus, they are considered "outside assistance." They are allowed but we add a penalty of 1.5% to the time of riders who use battery-powered headlights. "  :demon:
Néophyte > 2007 > Ancien > 2011 > Récidiviste

dasmoth

  • Techno-optimist
Re: If audax isn't competitive, then why bother with validation at all?
« Reply #57 on: May 24, 2010, 09:13:40 pm »
Better not tell them about this:demon:
Half term's when the traffic becomes mysteriously less bad for a week.

David Martin

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Re: If audax isn't competitive, then why bother with validation at all?
« Reply #58 on: May 24, 2010, 10:18:57 pm »

BTW  - I'm one of those that does that - but I never saw it as bragging. Just a social thing really. Means that people know what rides I'm doing and when we are likely to meet up.

Quote
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Re: If audax isn't competitive, then why bother with validation at all?
« Reply #59 on: May 24, 2010, 10:21:18 pm »
That is much harder than pushing out a 200k ride.

Ever tried pushing out a 200k ride after work then going to work the next day?

Re: If audax isn't competitive, then why bother with validation at all?
« Reply #60 on: May 24, 2010, 10:32:09 pm »
The closest I got to that was 160k on fixed (my longest fixed ride), followed the next morning by a 7am 25km commute on the same bike. It was ok, but I wouldn't have liked to do it week in, week out, with 600-800k at the weekends though...

citoyen

  • Cat 6 Racer
Re: If audax isn't competitive, then why bother with validation at all?
« Reply #61 on: May 24, 2010, 10:39:38 pm »
That is much harder than pushing out a 200k ride.

Ever tried pushing out a 200k ride after work then going to work the next day?

Are you trying to put ideas in Grub's head?  ;D

d.

simonp

  • Omnomnomnipotent.
Re: If audax isn't competitive, then why bother with validation at all?
« Reply #62 on: May 24, 2010, 11:04:56 pm »
That is much harder than pushing out a 200k ride.

Ever tried pushing out a 200k ride after work then going to work the next day?

Are you trying to put ideas in Grub's head?  ;D

d.


Please, no!  Staying ahead of him on BikeJournal is killing me.  ;D

Euan Uzami

Re: If audax isn't competitive, then why bother with validation at all?
« Reply #63 on: May 25, 2010, 09:20:26 am »
Here's something from the US for those of a competitive nature (if only with yourself) Cyclos Montagnards -- R80/R70/R60 Rules
...

Interesting to read their fundamentalist approach to battery-powered lights: "Battery powered headlights use energy that is not generated by the rider. Thus, they are considered "outside assistance." They are allowed but we add a penalty of 1.5% to the time of riders who use battery-powered headlights. "  :demon:

Ridiculous. Going by that principle, a tailwind could be considered "energy that is not generated by the rider". Where does it end!  ::-)

border-rider

Re: If audax isn't competitive, then why bother with validation at all?
« Reply #64 on: May 25, 2010, 09:26:51 am »
There was some ultradistance event in the US a few years ago which welcomed fixed wheel riders - but would only class them as such (and there was a separate category) if they rode a steel frame. 

Re: If audax isn't competitive, then why bother with validation at all?
« Reply #65 on: May 25, 2010, 09:34:25 am »
Ridiculous. Going by that principle, a tailwind could be considered "energy that is not generated by the rider".

You've obviously not sat on my wheel after a couple of days of hard riding  :demon:

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: If audax isn't competitive, then why bother with validation at all?
« Reply #66 on: May 25, 2010, 09:50:58 am »
There was some ultradistance event in the US a few years ago which welcomed fixed wheel riders - but would only class them as such (and there was a separate category) if they rode a steel frame. 

Furnace Creek 508, along with no aerobars, no flipping the wheel, no taking the feet off the pedals on downhills (some long steep downhills on that course).
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

border-rider

Re: If audax isn't competitive, then why bother with validation at all?
« Reply #67 on: May 25, 2010, 09:51:35 am »
That's the fellow :)

Ta.

Re: If audax isn't competitive, then why bother with validation at all?
« Reply #68 on: June 09, 2010, 02:18:34 am »
Ever tried pushing out a 200k ride after work then going to work the next day?

Sure, it was easy.

... "going to work", mind you, consists of rolling out of bed, donning a dressing gown, and sitting down in the study.

More seriously, I like validation; I think it's part of the business of having a definite standard to aim for. For victory to be sweet, defeat had to be a possibility.

frankly frankie

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Re: If audax isn't competitive, then why bother with validation at all?
« Reply #69 on: June 09, 2010, 01:14:13 pm »
Picking up on 1 or 2 points from the last 5 pages ...

The publication of results lists, points listings etc on the website happened around the year 2000, before that most of the information was never publicised in any form.  But concerns about 'competitiveness' - sometimes involving alleged skullduggery towards the end of the season between riders or clubs vying for some championship or other - date back a lot further.  However back in 1991 when no fewer than 5 riders all broke the previous points record, I remember these people were generally riding in the same events, often together, and being supportive of each other, I don't recall any 'competitive' feel back then, other than a strong drive to set new benchmarks.  (I just got my kicks by hanging on their coat-tails, work patterns permitting.)
So I think competitiveness - whatever form it takes - is much more about the individual personalities involved, than anything else.  And as such it need only exist in their own minds, and I don't see why anyone else would be bothered either way.  It's just one small aspect of the very diverse activity which is audaxing.

In the mid-noughties there was again a lot of 'competitiveness' concern which I remember being discussed in committee - there is always the option to not publish some or all of the results stuff, but in fact all we did was to remove the points listing in points order, and replace it with an alphabetical listing.  This had, I thought, a very noticeable effect and appeared to take the heat out of late season points-chasing.  There was also a policy decision to put a 'random' delay into the recording of Permanents - I'm not so keen on this but it probably has also had its effect.

NB that the published results are a by-product of the recording process - they can be published or not, but the underlying recording (using the web db server) would still take place in exactly the same way.  This is because it's an easy way to arrange collaboration between several workers at the same coalface, even including the Organisers who perhaps unwittingly play their part in the recording process by using the online start sheet generator.  (Recording is a necessary process because without it, SR lists etc could not exist.)

Most riders seem to like the published results, but there is a small but significant minority who dislike them - I've even met 1 or 2 people who've stopped audaxing because they don't want their name appearing in these lists.  Another very useful by-product of publishing the lists is that they get thoroughly error-checked by the people most able to do this - the riders themselves.  There's a lot of typing (whoever does it) to generate these lists so errors do happen - but these days we can be confident that most of these are spotted and can easily be corrected.  With the old non-published records we can be sure they are riddled with mistakes, and indeed I daresay that in the bad old quill-pen-and-ledger days some year-end points totals were just fabricated by someone who couldn't be bothered to do all the necessary bean-counting.

As for validation - I detect a trend towards turning up and doing the ride, but then declining to pass the brevet card on for validation.  This may make some sort of statement in the rider's own mind, but unfortunately it is also, in a small way, cheating AUK.  
AUK has a very stupid financial model whereby a significant income generator is the small validation fee attached to each and every card submitted for validation.  (And also - even more so - any 'temp member' fees accruing from non-member finishers.)  If the card is withheld, these fees are lost to AUK, and if everybody did it there would be a big black hole in the finances.  As I say, its a stupid system (not least because no income is generated from DNFs) but I've never been able to persuade anyone on committee to even seriously consider more sensible alternatives.
It's not dark yet but it's getting there.

DanialW

Re: If audax isn't competitive, then why bother with validation at all?
« Reply #70 on: June 09, 2010, 01:21:02 pm »
As for validation - I detect a trend towards turning up and doing the ride, but then declining to pass the brevet card on for validation.  This may make some sort of statement in the rider's own mind, but unfortunately it is also, in a small way, cheating AUK.  
AUK has a very stupid financial model whereby a significant income generator is the small validation fee attached to each and every card submitted for validation.  (And also - even more so - any 'temp member' fees accruing from non-member finishers.)  If the card is withheld, these fees are lost to AUK, and if everybody did it there would be a big black hole in the finances.  

I'd never thought of this, FF. It's a very good point indeed.

Martin

Re: If audax isn't competitive, then why bother with validation at all?
« Reply #71 on: June 09, 2010, 01:24:39 pm »
 If the card is withheld, these fees are lost to AUK, and if everybody did it there would be a big black hole in the finances.

and also it would make the event look pretty poorly supported if there were fewer finishers from the previous year.

completely agree; the pittance an organiser sends back AUK for validation and cards in no way represents the enormous benefit AUK gives an event in terms of (almost) free publicity (also in the cycling press) and invaluable organisational tools  :thumbsup: also the way it is applied means the biggest events with the most riders put the most back into AUK.

I think it should be double (ducks)

Euan Uzami

Re: If audax isn't competitive, then why bother with validation at all?
« Reply #72 on: June 09, 2010, 01:42:33 pm »
As for validation - I detect a trend towards turning up and doing the ride, but then declining to pass the brevet card on for validation.  This may make some sort of statement in the rider's own mind, but unfortunately it is also, in a small way, cheating AUK.  
AUK has a very stupid financial model whereby a significant income generator is the small validation fee attached to each and every card submitted for validation.  (And also - even more so - any 'temp member' fees accruing from non-member finishers.)  If the card is withheld, these fees are lost to AUK, and if everybody did it there would be a big black hole in the finances.  As I say, its a stupid system (not least because no income is generated from DNFs) but I've never been able to persuade anyone on committee to even seriously consider more sensible alternatives.

This is something I've considered doing (especially on 100ks) but soon came to the conclusion that it would be a bad idea, but not for the financial implications that you describe (which I was unaware of anyway) but for a matter of pride for the organiser -  a measure of how good their audax is could be taken as how few DNFs there are.

frankly frankie

  • I kid you not
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Re: If audax isn't competitive, then why bother with validation at all?
« Reply #73 on: June 09, 2010, 01:48:42 pm »
a matter of pride for the organiser -  a measure of how good their audax is could be taken as how few DNFs there are.

Well actually, the only person who knows this is the Org themselves.
Numbers of finishers are published (another by-product of the recording) but no central records are kept of numbers of entrants.
It's not dark yet but it's getting there.

Mr Larrington

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Re: If audax isn't competitive, then why bother with validation at all?
« Reply #74 on: June 09, 2010, 01:49:11 pm »
There was some ultradistance event in the US a few years ago which welcomed fixed wheel riders - but would only class them as such (and there was a separate category) if they rode a steel frame. 

Furnace Creek 508, along with no aerobars, no flipping the wheel, no taking the feet off the pedals on downhills (some long steep downhills on that course).

By 'eck, they've got some right funny rules...

  • No racer or crew member may wear clothing that displays poor taste or which promotes tobacco or hard liquor products
  • Hummers1 (any model), Ford Excursions, and motorhomes are not allowed for any purpose by anyone involved with the race.  So is an equally-large, polluting and nasty Chevy or Dodge allowed?  Can you use a Lincoln Navigator which is just a posh Excursion?
  • The crew may not use controlled drugs, stimulants, dope, or alcohol.  Wot?!?  No BEER?  I'm not playing...

Plus if you go off-route, you can be driven back to where it happened :o

1 - No, not that one ;D
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