routes/tracks for Edge 705 on Audaxes

[thing1]

Yep, this ties exactly with what I found over the weekend.
My Glastonbury 100miler course dried up for course points just after about 100km which must coincidentally have been when the 100 course point limit was reached, and so the 705 just ignored the rest.

Otherwise, the tcx files created in BRT and course points tweaked in bikehike worked great! Although in future will probably create them directly in bikehike (with downside you can't save them online)

[Hot Flatus]

The .gpxx format available on bikehike overcomes the waypoint limit of the 705.  Try plotting one on Bikehike, downlaod it as a .gpxx ROUTE and see what you think.  You'll essentially end up with car sat-nav style mapping with turns flashed up  at a distance pre-determined by you, and then again with an expolded diagram of the junction and a countdown in metres or yards.  I've yet to find anything better.  The only thing you can't do yet is add information to flash up info controls or commercial controls.

[Greenbank]

If you look at the actual gpxx file created (thanks Flatus for your S&C400 file) you can see it gets around routepoint limits by using its own gpxx extension:-

Code: [Select]

    <rtept lat="52.707770" lon="-2.664720">
      <ele>71.61</ele>
      <time>2010-06-09T10:09:46Z</time>
      <name>pt0</name>
      <extensions>
        <gpxx:RoutePointExtension xmlns:gpxx="http://www.garmin.com/xmlschemas/GpxExtensions/v3">
          <gpxx:rpt lat="52.707960" lon="-2.665300"/>
          <gpxx:rpt lat="52.708310" lon="-2.665970"/>
          <gpxx:rpt lat="52.708480" lon="-2.666610"/>
          ...continues like this for thousands of lines...

You have one real routepoint per important place (start, control, info control, etc) and then a huge number of extension routepoints inbetween (with no elevation though).

The one thing that's missing (for my own personal preferred Audax GPS gumpf) is a small bunch of routepoints marking the top of each major climb, like this:-

Code: [Select]

<gpx>
<metadata></metadata>
<rte>
<name>SCHills</name>
<rtept lat="52.8704953464086" lon="-3.46742989917965"><name>Z1-529</name></rtept>
<rtept lat="52.9761133669096" lon="-3.84463464690917"><name>Z2-532</name></rtept>
<rtept lat="53.0816755463641" lon="-4.02342015427247"><name>Z3-412</name></rtept>
<rtept lat="53.1316129020607" lon="-4.16324942379446"><name>Z4-282</name></rtept>
<rtept lat="53.1178241582839" lon="-4.20229321532408"><name>Z5-255</name></rtept>
<rtept lat="52.7081892841381" lon="-3.84137804580078"><name>Z6-351</name></rtept>
<rtept lat="52.6671953731105" lon="-3.86695411107349"><name>Z7-261</name></rtept>
<rtept lat="52.4661600831765" lon="-3.99870078530693"><name>Z8-147</name></rtept>
<rtept lat="52.419857737328" lon="-4.05098963037256"><name>Z9-184</name></rtept>
<rtept lat="52.4407634165747" lon="-3.77180823686685"><name>ZA-478</name></rtept>
</rte>
</gpx>

The routepoint name gives the elevation, so you can play mental arithmetic games of how much climbing left to do and average gradients etc.

[Hot Flatus]

I'm not so fussed about that but what would be handy is to be able to put waypoints in to mark upcoming info controls. Being able to add text would be even better. I think it can be done on tcx and gpx but not gpxx

[bloomers100]

Something that confuses me is that when I download from bikehike in gpxx format the file seems to be labelled on the computer as just gpx, is that normal or am I neglecting to do something.

[Greenbank]

That's normal. It's just a filename, it's the contents that matter.

If you looked inside the file you'd see lots references to 'gpxx extensions' as above.

[thing1]

So, attempting to summerize:

GPXX
- creates a route with unlimited (well >100) intermediate waypoints.
- way points are NOT imported as 'Favorites' (as happens with GPX)
- does not allow annotation e.g. of controls
- requires the street-level SD Card maps to route to the first & between the waypoints (optional, or mandatory?)
- turn instructions are called out by the built in route guidance engine, so gives plenty of warning before junctions etc
- every junction is called; this can be vital or annoying depending on your beep disposition (Tip: at night time set the message alerts to Off, and rely on the display lighting up to warn you)

TCX
- gives an unlimited track line plus up to 100 marked course points per file.
- gives an alert as you pass the course points, but no advance warning. allows full control of when it will beep, but takes more up front effort.
- bikehike allows you to shift turn markers e.g. 100m in advance of junctions so you get some warning
- BRT allows you to add extra course points and label up as CONTROL etc (and even give it a special FOOD icon)
- it's possible to create course in BRT, mark up controls, export, import to bikehike & re-export to shift the markers, but a real PITA.
- activates the 'course' page, which has the nice feature of giving you a future-looking elevation graph, to allow you to pace climbs. (plus all the virtual partner chasing stuff too)
- you have to remember to press 'Start' again after selecting the course, or risk not recording your history


(EDIT: just noticed a good bunch of this was also covered in this thread)

[fuaran]

Something that confuses me is that when I download from bikehike in gpxx format the file seems to be labelled on the computer as just gpx, is that normal or am I neglecting to do something.

Its still a file in GPX format. Its just a GPX with Garmin Extensions, aka GPXX.

[simonp]

So I'm trying to make sense of these limits.

I downloaded a gdb file from mapsource, containing 4 routes with 120 waypoints to see what would happen.

The final 20 waypoints are missing.  But the routes still work, because rotuepoints and waypoints are different things and they both get sent to the device.  So there is a limit of 100 waypoints, but if you look in the exported gpx:

Code: [Select]

    <rtept lat="52.186736650764942" lon="0.173240024596453">
      <ele>61.09905968233943</ele>
      <time>2007-10-24T22:40:16Z</time>
      <name>120 END</name>
      <sym>Waypoint</sym>
      <extensions>
        <gpxx:RoutePointExtension xmlns:gpxx="http://www.garmin.com/xmlschemas/GpxExtensions/v3">
          <gpxx:Subclass>000000000000FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF</gpxx:Subclass>
        </gpxx:RoutePointExtension>
      </extensions>
    </rtept>

and looking in the file also gives:

Code: [Select]

  <wpt lat="52.186736650764942" lon="0.173240024596453">
    <ele>61.09905968233943</ele>
    <time>2007-10-24T22:40:16Z</time>
    <name>120 END</name>
    <sym>Waypoint</sym>
    <extensions>
      <gpxx:WaypointExtension xmlns:gpxx="http://www.garmin.com/xmlschemas/GpxExtensions/v3">
        <gpxx:DisplayMode>SymbolAndName</gpxx:DisplayMode>
      </gpxx:WaypointExtension>
    </extensions>
  </wpt>

So if I create a route in mapsource with many waypoints, the excess waypoints are lost, but the routepoints are still present, and the route can still be navigated.

[red marley]

Yes, this is the same as 'gpxx' output from Bikely. The gpxx extension allows an arbitrary number of routepoints without using up the waypoint limit. The main disadvantage of this approach is that routepoints are not labelable in the way waypoints are.

It seems ridiculous that the 10 year old Geko will allow up to 500 waypoints, with 120 per route yet the more modern GPS units with mapping, huge memories and faster processors cannot handle this.

[simonp]

Yes, this is the same as 'gpxx' output from Bikely. The gpxx extension allows an arbitrary number of routepoints without using up the waypoint limit. The main disadvantage of this approach is that routepoints are not labelable in the way waypoints are.

It seems ridiculous that the 10 year old Geko will allow up to 500 waypoints, with 120 per route yet the more modern GPS units with mapping, huge memories and faster processors cannot handle this.

Crippleware.  It's a bike computer, not a satnav.  I am pretty sure that the device could handle 1000 waypoints like the 3-4 year old HCX can, but there may be a marketing decision to remove a whole bunch of functionality.

I don't think the gpxx extensions actually add anything in this case, since there are no additional points in the RoutePointExtension.

[Greenbank]

I think you have to create the file on bikely in a certain way for it to do the right thing when output as gpxx.

The Snowdon And Coast 400 file I got from Flatus was perfect, comments here: routes/tracks for Edge 705 on Audaxes

One real route-point per control/info with intermediate gpxx routepoints for each turn.

I haven't had the chance to create my own bikely routes as gpxx so I don't know what you need to do within bikely to make this all happen. I'm guessing you just name the routepoints you want to appear as routepoints, and the others are all output as gpxx extension routepoints.

[MattH]

I've never hit any limit problems with the 705. I do a point at every instruction, plus as many additional "hint" points as are needed to ensure that it routes me the right way. 

However, I do use Mapsource to generate my routes, and separate long Audaxes into sections between controls (maybe two or three controls in a route if they are close together)  - this has the additional benefit that it is only trying to calculate a route of up to 150k or so, rather than 600+, so is faster when I start it up.

Until this thread I'd never heard of gpxx, let alone used it, and I've been using the 705 since it came out.

[Greenbank]

Here are the SC400 files I got from Flatus.

Named points appear as traditional <rtept> routepoints. All other points appear as extension routepoints (but do influence routing on the 705).

http://www.greenbank.org/misc/sc400a.gpx
http://www.greenbank.org/misc/sc400b.gpx

[simonp]

I think I prefer what I got from mapsource. When you said "named points" I expected things like 007 L not "pt2503"

It agrees with my understanding of what the extension is for - providing a prescribed route between named points.  I suspect it's in part a work-around for the size bloat caused by using xml.

However, I just put the gps into off road mode and I can manage to follow the road myself.

Effectively what you've got there is a track.

[Euan Uzami]

how do you guys give names to routepoints?
can't do it in bikehike, so i created an app to do it which is dead quick to use and accurate as it shows a map of each one. only problem is if you then reload it into bikehike it wipes them out so have to use mapsource to transfer it.

just wondered if there was a better way of doing it...but quite welcome to share  my app if there isn't

[Greenbank]

how do you guys give names to routepoints?

I just edit the gpx file.

[Euan Uzami]

i used to do it like that but there is no way of being sure that the point you are editing is the one at the instruction, although that's possibly because I have points between instructions, so that the line points the right way out of a junction, so not every point is an instruction in other words.

[Greenbank]

i used to do it like that but there is no way of being sure that the point you are editing is the one at the instruction, although that's possibly because I have points between instructions, so that the line points the right way out of a junction, so not every point is an instruction in other words.

I check it over afterwards, plus you can always bang the lat/lon into google maps to check exactly where it is.

Also, you can plot the route on bikehike in sections between controls, saving each section individually. That way you know that the start/end of each section is where you want it to be, so naming the start/end points is easy. Once you've done the entire route splice it all together into one file.

I'm guessing the above is what Flatus did to plot the S&C 400 route.

[Hot Flatus]

No I didn't  

I plot routes into one file, unless they double-back on themselves. The S&C did this only at Aberystwyth which is why there were two gpxx files.

Just done the mc1000. Five files. Would have been seven, but I ignored the little prong off the route to the control at Lake Vernwee, and I stopped plotting the second days route on the return visit to Llandovery, as the route uses the same out and back at this point and there seems no point creating another file for 18k of the same road.

I still haven't found a way to have info controls flash up when using gpxx files. Would be quite useful as then I could go completely asleep on the bike

[simonp]

Infos: Surely you just put them in as a named point, just like in a plain gpx?

[Hot Flatus]

Disnae work, Cap'n

[simonp]

Disnae work, Cap'n

Hmm.  I use off-road routing.  That may be the key.