Author Topic: More stuff from Floyd Landis  (Read 7913 times)

Re: More stuff from Floyd Landis
« Reply #50 on: July 05, 2010, 12:14:41 pm »
I wonder where we stand in regard to the general attitude to drugs. These things are cyclical, the Chemical Generation of the 90s were evangelical about medication. Is the zeitgeist now more about authenticity and integrity? I don't see a lot of either commodity in sport, certainly professional cycling would be an unlikely place to search for purity and truth.

Re: More stuff from Floyd Landis
« Reply #51 on: July 05, 2010, 12:21:50 pm »
I think the whole scene changed with the advent of epo, not only in terms of the huge margin of advantage it bestowed but in the cost implied on running a successful test-defying     
programme.  The doping practices of the pre-90s were a little more egalitarian in terms of access and benefits

Re: More stuff from Floyd Landis
« Reply #52 on: July 05, 2010, 12:44:58 pm »
Laurent Fignon is of the opinion that pre 1990 doping could not make a non champion grade rider into a champion but EPO can.
I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that.

inc

Re: More stuff from Floyd Landis
« Reply #53 on: July 05, 2010, 02:02:23 pm »


The "Floyd Fairness Fund" raised around $1,000,000 from fans' donations to his legal fund.  A fund used to defend his innocence in court (despite him later confessing to his own guilt).



He has not confessed to using  testosterone in the 2006 tour he is still denying it. 

Re: More stuff from Floyd Landis
« Reply #54 on: July 05, 2010, 10:22:54 pm »
One problem with the 2006 test was that the anomaly was not raised testosterone levels, instead there was a high ratio between two testosterone types, and that by virtue of one component being very low rather than the other being raised.

It sort of ties in with his not using testosterone but doing some other work that screwed up the ratio. Probably pissed him off in the same way that Capone might have felt after being jailed for tax evasion.
What's this bottom line for anyway?

Re: More stuff from Floyd Landis
« Reply #55 on: July 05, 2010, 11:47:00 pm »
Query: if blood doping is as common as Landis says, wouldn't all the dopers have nice obvious track-marks all over their bodies? Or am I missing something?
Have you seen my blog? It has words. And pictures! http://ablogofallthingskathy.blogspot.com/

Re: More stuff from Floyd Landis
« Reply #56 on: July 06, 2010, 12:01:13 am »
Query: if blood doping is as common as Landis says, wouldn't all the dopers have nice obvious track-marks all over their bodies? Or am I missing something?

Tour riders use intravenous apsirin as an anti-inflammatory, any legal drugs are better administered in that way to avoid stomach problems. Audax riders do a similar thing by using Ibuprofen gel. Of course the team can put other stuff into the riders without them knowing, or tell the riders they have received something special for a placebo effect. These lads are not neccesarily very bright.

Re: More stuff from Floyd Landis
« Reply #57 on: July 06, 2010, 11:46:19 am »
The UCI doesn't sell the TdF brand, ASO does... but you are kind of missing the point, the credibility of the sport has already been stretched to breaking point by the actions of the dopers getting caught... which is why the UCI doesn't want them caught (see the current battles between UCI vs WADA and ADFL)

German tv pulled out after Ullrich and Zabel, the French are losing interest too.  

Armstrong has become a liability for the sport.

Why is Armstrong a liability? This always assumes that he has/does cheat.
Under these circumstances, anyone in the peloton who has tested negative, but performed well (Cancellara?) is also a liability.

You have to accept that the testing regime has constraints, but that it does detect people cheating. Therefore it does work.

Just because it doesn't give you a positive result for the person you want it to find positive is not a bad thing it just means that as a sporting rule it's working.
That person has either found a way around the testing regime, or they're not actually cheating.

Given the range of testing techniques applied and the period that they've been running you'd have to argue that someone who can keep ahead for years and years and years is either employing some pretty smart chemists to test himself constantly to make sure what he does is undetectable, or more worryingly, getting someone else to take stuff and then see if it can be detected, or they're simply not cheating.

Apply Occam's razor to that and the easier conclusion is that on the balance of probabilities either there's a huge hole in the way testing is carried out, or...


Re: More stuff from Floyd Landis
« Reply #58 on: July 06, 2010, 12:01:07 pm »
Dope tests are developed reactively, therefore the dopers are one step ahead of the testers. Landis, whether you believe him or not, Frei and Kohl have explained how it is possible to elude the blood passport and the test for epo. There are some pretty big names in dope testing now questioning the efficacy of the blood passport. Of course those running it have a vested interest in denying this.


clarion

  • Tyke
Re: More stuff from Floyd Landis
« Reply #59 on: July 06, 2010, 12:02:34 pm »
Pantani was detected because he acted like an idiot against the advice of his team.  Armstrong is a very focussed and disciplined individual, and a great rider.  A great brand.  And a great liability.
Getting there...

Re: More stuff from Floyd Landis
« Reply #60 on: July 06, 2010, 12:31:22 pm »
A question.

Do you want the dopers caught, or do you want to stop them doping?

Personally, I think there's not a lot we can do with regards to what has already happened.

However, if we can drive them to the point where the technological challenges of doping become so great that staying ahead of the testing is really, really difficult then I think that is already a good achievement.

I'd also like to see evidence that other sorts are trying as hard as cycling. Football. Tennis. Rugby etc.

Re: More stuff from Floyd Landis
« Reply #61 on: July 06, 2010, 12:36:32 pm »
The problem has arisen because they've had to integrate the circus that is the Tour into the same moral framework as the Olympic Games, I don't think that the ethos of the Tour can be made to fit the Corinthian ideal. I don't have much of a problem with Armstrong doping within the context of the Tour, the riders who lose out are the ones who have to ride all year round to make a crust, but ultimately the Tour is about stories and Armstrong v Cancer has been too strong to jettison.

clarion

  • Tyke
Re: More stuff from Floyd Landis
« Reply #62 on: July 06, 2010, 12:38:02 pm »
For what tennis is doing, you could look to what has happened in operation Puerto.  Tennis & Football stars were implicated, but only cycling seems ot have done anything at all.

Nadal.
Getting there...

Re: More stuff from Floyd Landis
« Reply #63 on: July 06, 2010, 12:59:28 pm »
What interests me about Armstrong is how much interaction there has been between his cancer doctors, the drug company Bristol Myers Squibb and his racing doctors. If we accept that he is medicated to help him win, could the resultant data be of interest to the drug companies. Would medical confidentiality cover this overlap?
Bristol-Myers Squibb - Lance Armstrong - 7 Years Ago (2004) 0:30 (USA) commercials | Adland.tv

Re: More stuff from Floyd Landis
« Reply #64 on: July 06, 2010, 01:08:28 pm »
What interest me is how many people want him to be guilty.
I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that.

Re: More stuff from Floyd Landis
« Reply #65 on: July 06, 2010, 01:16:08 pm »
That is a bit weaselly. I don't want him to be guilty but I think he is. There is a huge difference.

Re: More stuff from Floyd Landis
« Reply #66 on: July 06, 2010, 01:24:45 pm »
What interest me is how many people want him to be guilty.

He won his first Tour when George Bush was Governor of Texas, Armstrong was living in Austin, he was then identified with Bush until he distanced himself over Iraq. That made him a target for bloggers and he has remained that ever since.

Re: More stuff from Floyd Landis
« Reply #67 on: July 06, 2010, 01:31:59 pm »
The problem has arisen because they've had to integrate the circus that is the Tour into the same moral framework as the Olympic Games, I don't think that the ethos of the Tour can be made to fit the Corinthian ideal.

I think I'd agree with that. I rather enjoy the spectacle of pro cycling, warts and all.

Re: More stuff from Floyd Landis
« Reply #68 on: July 06, 2010, 01:34:11 pm »
That is a bit weaselly. I don't want him to be guilty but I think he is. There is a huge difference.

Didn't mean you specifically Flatus.
I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that.

Re: More stuff from Floyd Landis
« Reply #69 on: July 06, 2010, 01:49:37 pm »
Well no, but that's like an Armstrong line of defence. I used to feel quite laissez-faire about the whole thing, feeling that in some curious ways there was an egalitarianism about cheating, but the stuff that has come out about him and his tactics, even extending to getting Trek to disadvantage Lemond's bike business (which GL fought and won) makes me think that the guy has too much money and power and using Kimmage's words, is a cancer in cycling.

It is funny how money talks. Remember when Armstrong retired, and the scandal over his retrospectively tested piss blew up? The former boss of the tour said that Armstrong had hoodwinked everyone.

Now that he is back, and with all the US media money he brings to ASO, this seems to have been forgotten.

What pissed me off is that there is a good chance that his donation to the UCI was a bribe, and that what the AFDL says about LAs team getting preferential treatment at tour dope tests is true. If is is then he and Bruyneel are a terrible corrupting influence... and this is supposed to be sport.

Re: More stuff from Floyd Landis
« Reply #70 on: July 06, 2010, 01:51:50 pm »
Never had him pegged as a nice guy.  Certainly seems to hold a grudge.
I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that.

Re: More stuff from Floyd Landis
« Reply #71 on: July 14, 2010, 05:51:23 am »
Well well well.

As I thought, this is going to run.

The first grand jury subpoenas have been issued to witnesses. 

It will be interesting to see which way this case does go....

citoyen

  • Cat 6 Racer
Re: More stuff from Floyd Landis
« Reply #72 on: July 14, 2010, 10:17:37 am »
I rather enjoy the spectacle of pro cycling, warts and all.

Same here. Though yesterday's stage left a sour taste in the mouth.

d.

inc

Re: More stuff from Floyd Landis
« Reply #73 on: July 14, 2010, 10:29:10 am »

Same here. Though yesterday's stage left a sour taste in the mouth.


They both ride Specialized, it must be that pro fit seup makes all the difference they looked so fresh  :) especially compared to Sanchez and Voigt who looked close to complete exhaustion.

Rhys W

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Re: More stuff from Floyd Landis
« Reply #74 on: July 14, 2010, 10:43:48 am »
Same here. Though yesterday's stage left a sour taste in the mouth.

Why? I find all this cynical dismissal of any reasonably successful performance very depressing.