Author Topic: ACP's Super Randonnee  (Read 8827 times)

whosatthewheel

Re: ACP's Super Randonnee
« Reply #25 on: November 19, 2017, 12:38:52 pm »
It's a bit of a myth that the Pyrenees are steeper than the Alps. I've climbed all the major cols in the Pyrenees and none of them averages over 8%, with the exception of shorter ones like Marie Blanque and Portet d'Aspet. On the other hand, in the Dolomites you will easily find long climbs (cols) that exceed 8%... the mighty Passo Giau and Mortirolo just to name a couple.

What the Pyrenees have less than the Alps is probably traffic. On a two hour ascent of the Tourmalet in June, you are likely to see a dozen cars at most. That is of course true until you tackle the climb to Andorra from Aix-Les-Thermes...  :o

mattc

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    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: ACP's Super Randonnee
« Reply #26 on: November 19, 2017, 02:50:25 pm »
I guess it doesn't really matter which range is steeper - we're not planning the routes! Probably easier to judge each event as they are.

[I'm also eyeing these things up. For the reasons LWAB gives, the Welsh one looks 'tougher' than the rides in high mountains on the continent. But I'm slightly drawn to it; I know some of the climbs, and the general area - so that helps with the logistics and with just having a "warm feeling" that comes with a bit more fore-knowledge. Plus it's (relatively!) on my doorstep, so I could slot it into any spare 4-5 days, and not spend a fortune.

But I have a load of other big rides planned for 2018, so the SR600 may well wait another year ... whilst some more Brits write some ride reports for me to study!]
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

whosatthewheel

Re: ACP's Super Randonnee
« Reply #27 on: November 19, 2017, 05:37:38 pm »
What's the time limit for the Welsh SR Randonneur version? Is there going to be a Tourist version too?

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: ACP's Super Randonnee
« Reply #28 on: November 19, 2017, 05:47:00 pm »
60 hours for all of the SR600s at randonneur standard.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

whosatthewheel

Re: ACP's Super Randonnee
« Reply #29 on: November 19, 2017, 06:41:50 pm »
60 hours for all of the SR600s at randonneur standard.

Nice!! Much more civilised than 75 for a 1K

Re: ACP's Super Randonnee
« Reply #30 on: November 19, 2017, 07:41:20 pm »
http://www.ara-breisgau.de/superrandonnee/strecke/

Walter Jungwirths book 1000 Kilometer Süden about the Mille de Sud is one of the much better books about cycling, so I would expect his super randonee 'Belchen satt' to be a cracking ride.

Re: ACP's Super Randonnee
« Reply #31 on: November 19, 2017, 09:37:12 pm »
Report here:

http://heimatnomadin.com/belchen-satt-2016

A couple of mentions of 18% gradients and some very dour weather in the report.  Chapeau to Leona!

whosatthewheel

Re: ACP's Super Randonnee
« Reply #32 on: November 20, 2017, 06:26:48 am »
So, assuming I can do 200 km in 12 hours, which I believe I can on that terrain... it's basically 3 days with the luxury of being able to check in a B&B at a non embarrassing time and even have breakfast!

It all sounds very civilised... the Welsh C6 appears to pass through Llanwurst at Km 400... perfect!

Re: ACP's Super Randonnee
« Reply #33 on: November 20, 2017, 05:38:37 pm »
HK and I have finally decided that next year will be 'der Tag' for us and the SR600 (how many years has it taken?).

I am a big bloke and not a natural climber, so to maximise enjoyment, it'll help if:
- the descents allow real time gains, rather than riding the brakes
- the climbs are long and steady, rather than short and steep
- conditions tend to be dry and not too hot sometime between June and September
- there are some stunning views

https://randonneuredintorni.wordpress.com/super-randonnee-delle-dolomiti/ was suggested on another thread.

The new Welsh SR600 is out. That many Welsh climbs in one hit doesn't appeal to us.

Amongst the high mountains, HK thinks that the Alps might be best for us, as the Dolomites tend to be wet and the Pyrenees steeper, while there is a lot of food/ accommodation at frequent intervals in the Alps.

Any thoughts or suggestions?

I would check the Austrian one then, roads are good so high speed descents are an option. Traffic relatively civilised and plenty of touristic accomodation.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: ACP's Super Randonnee
« Reply #34 on: November 20, 2017, 06:19:54 pm »
Thanks for the suggestion Ivo. It would pick up another country for me too.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: ACP's Super Randonnee
« Reply #35 on: November 20, 2017, 07:42:06 pm »
Where would I find details of the Welsh SR600? None of those on the perm list seemed like an obvious match, but perhaps I’m being daft  ???

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: ACP's Super Randonnee
« Reply #36 on: November 20, 2017, 07:50:45 pm »
It is in the final stages of being set up.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: ACP's Super Randonnee
« Reply #37 on: November 21, 2017, 12:14:56 am »
So, assuming I can do 200 km in 12 hours, which I believe I can on that terrain... it's basically 3 days with the luxury of being able to check in a B&B at a non embarrassing time and even have breakfast!

It all sounds very civilised... the Welsh C6 appears to pass through Llanwurst at Km 400... perfect!

I think I would look to plan 240km, 200km, 160km to take the stress out of the last day.  Depending on daylight hours at the time/place of the ride, I would try to start 12 hours before sunset, so there woukd only be a small amount of night riding in day 1. OR start daily at 6 and forego the breakfast in the hotel in favour of all daylight riding and a civilised evening meal. It's only the same distance as the BCM with 33% extra climbing but a whole extra day to ride.
   Eddington  87 miles

whosatthewheel

Re: ACP's Super Randonnee
« Reply #38 on: November 21, 2017, 08:50:48 am »
Does it work like other perms, in that you can start at any control point en route? Looking at the Welsh one, Aberystwyth seems a good start point... 200 km to Llanberis (bunk beds at Pete's Ets) and another 200 to Brecon (plenty of accomodation, I would assume). Plus the benefit of finishing in a town and being able to have a decent meal + drinks  ;D.

Also, Aberystwyth has a station, should things go pear shaped, whereas Knighton doesn't

Re: ACP's Super Randonnee
« Reply #39 on: November 21, 2017, 11:34:56 am »
Does it work like other perms, in that you can start at any control point en route? Looking at the Welsh one, Aberystwyth seems a good start point... 200 km to Llanberis (bunk beds at Pete's Ets) and another 200 to Brecon (plenty of accomodation, I would assume). Plus the benefit of finishing in a town and being able to have a decent meal + drinks  ;D.

Also, Aberystwyth has a station, should things go pear shaped, whereas Knighton doesn't

Good question as these will be sent off for validation by ACP

I have found the answer

"Those who have registered as Randonneurs must start from the official starting point. As Tourists, they can choose any other starting point on the cue sheet."

from page http://www.audax-club-parisien.com/EN/422%20-%20Rules%20Super%20Randonn%C3%A9e.html


yorkie

  • On top of the Galibier
Re: ACP's Super Randonnee
« Reply #40 on: November 21, 2017, 01:55:54 pm »
Also, Aberystwyth has a station, should things go pear shaped, whereas Knighton doesn't

Is that Knighton on the Anglo-Welsh border? Sort of mid-Walesish? The one with a railway station on the Central Wales line?
That one has 4 trains a day each way to/from Shrewsbury or Swansea, with 2 on Sundays. Granted it's not the 6 or more trains per hour you get in that there London, but it's still 4 more than none!  ;)
Born to ride my bike, forced to work! ;)

British Cycling Regional Track Commissaire
British Cycling Regional Circuit Commissaire

whosatthewheel

Re: ACP's Super Randonnee
« Reply #41 on: November 21, 2017, 01:57:55 pm »
Does it work like other perms, in that you can start at any control point en route? Looking at the Welsh one, Aberystwyth seems a good start point... 200 km to Llanberis (bunk beds at Pete's Ets) and another 200 to Brecon (plenty of accomodation, I would assume). Plus the benefit of finishing in a town and being able to have a decent meal + drinks  ;D.

Also, Aberystwyth has a station, should things go pear shaped, whereas Knighton doesn't

Good question as these will be sent off for validation by ACP

I have found the answer

"Those who have registered as Randonneurs must start from the official starting point. As Tourists, they can choose any other starting point on the cue sheet."

from page http://www.audax-club-parisien.com/EN/422%20-%20Rules%20Super%20Randonn%C3%A9e.html

Ah, OK thanks


whosatthewheel

Re: ACP's Super Randonnee
« Reply #42 on: November 21, 2017, 01:59:14 pm »


Is that Knighton on the Anglo-Welsh border? Sort of mid-Walesish? The one with a railway station on the Central Wales line?
That one has 4 trains a day each way to/from Shrewsbury or Swansea, with 2 on Sundays. Granted it's not the 6 or more trains per hour you get in that there London, but it's still 4 more than none!  ;)

Well spotted

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: ACP's Super Randonnee
« Reply #43 on: November 03, 2019, 05:35:22 pm »
Just bumping this thread in the light of 2 things:
- Will announcing his near Bristol Tintern-to-Snowdonia SR600
- me riding the Tourmalet and reigniting my passion to follow in Marcus' footsteps. Read about them here: MJB and the ACP Super Randonnee Pyrenees

I'm sure we won't be rigorously tidy about such things, but it makes sense (to me!) to have 1 master thread so that e.g. Will's thread doesn't get overwhelmed by me banging on about how great Spain is :P
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: ACP's Super Randonnee
« Reply #44 on: January 04, 2020, 01:30:07 pm »
Just bumping this thread in the light of 2 things:
- Will announcing his near Bristol Tintern-to-Snowdonia SR600
. . . makes sense (to me!) to have 1 master thread so that e.g. Will's thread doesn't get overwhelmed by me banging on about how great Spain is :P
What an excellent suggestion,@mattc!
Have just entered Will's SR600.

Re: ACP's Super Randonnee
« Reply #45 on: January 04, 2020, 03:27:17 pm »
Copying CET's comment on Will's thread:
Have just discovered this thread and so answering a few references to the 6C SR.  But firstly congrats to Will for setting this up - it takes a lot of work to get everything validated.  I'm also impressed with the lack of overlap between the two routes as its actually hard to get a sensible route with that amount of climbing

The 6C does have a AUK Permanent version.  So far it there have been 2 or 3 entries for this - but I'm not sure that anyone has actually attempted it seriously.   There are a few riders out there who could manage 10K+ of ascent in Welsh lanes and get some sleep, but only a few.  I rode the 4C, on which the 6C is based not long after waltzing around the Rough Diamond 300 at the head of the field.  I was probably in the best nick I've ever been.  Extrapolating my time on the 4C (in which I had 3 15 minute catnaps) to the 6C, I would have had about 2 - 3 hours spare for a sleep but would have probably been too worried about missing the time limit to complete it.  That's why the SR approach, with 60 hours makes sense.

There have been 5 finishes of the 6C as a super-randonnee, most of them have made near full use of the 60 hour limit, and most have struggled to make their planned overnight stops.  If you think of 3 hilly AAA 200s back to back, if you take 12 hours for the first, you will take much longer for the third...

But the completion rate is much higher than the 400 and 600 Cambrian Permanents - precisely because there is the chance to have a couple of sleep stops.   And the feedback is that it is a highly rewarding challenge that it is uniquely different from anything else that Audax has to offer.

Re: ACP's Super Randonnee
« Reply #46 on: January 04, 2020, 03:29:44 pm »
In June I did not complete CET's SR600 - http://www.aukweb.net/events/detail/sr01r/ - ran out of time on Day3 (or left too little time to complete).
Cambrian 6C/SR600 route: https://ridewithgps.com/routes/29823510?beta=false
I attempted this 10-12 Jun. Forecast a week out looked OK. One day out it looked no fun. Stayed in Kington YH and started from Knighton at 0750. On Day 1 I actually had just the odd shower wind was steady 10-12kn and tail/head/tail combo. Fast to Brecon (60k). First food in Llanwrtyd Wells (95k) followed by hardest climb of the day (no foot down)(but much easier than the morrow's) Devil's Staircase on the mountain road to Tregaron (125k, more food there). East from Aberystwyth (153k) on the A44 for 100 minutes was more climbing than I expected. Ice cream at a shop. Started 0750 and finished 2036.
219km + 4021m (Garmin)
Moving Time = 10:56
Elapsed Time 12:46
17.2 kph ave
20.1 kph moving
Overnight 15km NW of Llanidloes in bunkhouse just west of Staylittle (210k) - cooked dinner provided. In retrospect: too comfy and hospitable hosts, but supper and company, shower and bed were great.
Pissing down overnight and in the morning, with fresh cool northerly, deterring an early start. Set off north at 7am. Climbed Bwlch-y-Groes (no foot down) and then fast, cold descent to Bala (267k). 50 mins in cafe warming up, in particular, hands (a week short of mid-summer!). Still raining. Left both (filled) bottles on table outside cafe. Pressed on till mid-afternoon and had a meal in an Abergele pub (317k) - rain had stopped once north of Llansannan. Climb back out was easier than expected and soon down into Llanwrst (bought food/pizzas to cook) and after climb up and down to Swallow Falls/A5 dumped shopping at YH (quick tea at YH) and pressed on to Llanberis and back (45km there and back) in lovely evening sun. Benefitted from a tailwind back up to Pen-y-pas.
189km + circa 3000m in 13 hours ish with a fair bit stopped - roughly similar moving and average speeds to Day 1. Pleased with a good day's riding. Swallow Falls YH (394k) was excellent.
Expected (forecast) northerly to continue and therefore tail wind for Day 3 - regrettably not realised. Set off later than I ought at 6am from Swallow Falls and took 140 mins for the 37km to Denbigh (427km) and realised/decided that my speed made good (<14kph) was not going to get me to the finish in time (181km to Knighton in 11 hours, by 8pm) given the relentless hills, up and down. Breakfast in ?Morrisons? cafe just below right hand turn to Denbigh control. So, to get back to Knighton, left out Mold and after Llangollen, routed east of the hills, lower down via Oswestry, Welshpool, Montgomery and Bishop's Castle: 175km on Day 3 (as opposed to 217km and much more climb in general drizzle, and wet descents on narrow roads). Glad I made the decision as, from the 'no rain' Severn plain B roads, I could see the hills which the route traversed covered in low cloud.
My key lessons identified are:
1) Given pre-arranged accommodation, accept/plan for a late arrival Day 1 eg 10pm+.
2) Ration overnight stopped time and prioritise sleeping.
3) Don't underestimate the last day which has harder climbing than Day 1, harder descents (as far as I can see) so less beneficial to average speed, and for my plan/schedule, the longest day. One's average speed over the previous 2 days will give one a(n upper limit)  guide as to how long one needs to allow (and therefore a definite start 'no later than' time).
4) Try to hit better weather (and MTFU if actual worse than forecast).

I'd ridden 35 hours with 5 + hours sleep in a bed on the Bryan Chapman 3 weeks earlier, and that's got 7000m of climb.
When I give this another go (in 2020), I'll start earlier on Day 2, go on to Denbigh in the evening of Day2 and hopefully have better weather.
@CET - thank you for the organisation. I have control photos for the first 400k!

CrazyEnglishTriathlete

  • Miles eaten don't satisfy hunger
  • Chartered accountant in 5 different decades
    • CET Ride Reports and Blogs
Re: ACP's Super Randonnee
« Reply #47 on: January 05, 2020, 04:17:18 pm »
The hardest bit on the Cambrian 6C is the section south of Llangollen to Llanfyllin.   One of the hills has no Ordnance Survey arrow, a sign saying 13% at the bottom, and then proceeds to rise 130m in 700m (sustained 17%).  The descents are narrow and twisting and so you don't make up much time on them.  There are then two more long climbing sections (heading into the prevailing wind) before Llanfyllin. 
Eddington Numbers 125 (imperial), 170 (metric) 520 (furlongs)  112 (nautical miles)

Re: ACP's Super Randonnee
« Reply #48 on: January 06, 2020, 11:37:33 pm »
In June I did not complete CET's SR600 - ran out of time on Day3 (or left too little time to complete).
Cambrian 6C/SR600 route: https://ridewithgps.com/routes/29823510?beta=false
I attempted this 10-12 Jun. Forecast a week out looked OK. One day out it looked no fun. Stayed in Kington YH and started from Knighton at 0750. On Day 1 I actually had just the odd shower wind was steady 10-12kn and tail/head/tail combo. Fast to Brecon (60k). First food in Llanwrtyd Wells (95k) followed by hardest climb of the day (no foot down)(but much easier than the morrow's) Devil's Staircase on the mountain road to Tregaron (125k, more food there). East from Aberystwyth (153k) on the A44 for 100 minutes was more climbing than I expected. Ice cream at a shop. Started 0750 and finished 2036.
219km + 4021m (Garmin)
Moving Time = 10:56
Elapsed Time 12:46
17.2 kph ave
20.1 kph moving
Overnight 15km NW of Llanidloes in bunkhouse just west of Staylittle (210k) - cooked dinner provided. In retrospect: too comfy and hospitable hosts, but supper and company, shower and bed were great.
Pissing down overnight and in the morning, with fresh cool northerly, deterring an early start. Set off north at 7am. Climbed Bwlch-y-Groes (no foot down) and then fast, cold descent to Bala (267k). 50 mins in cafe warming up, in particular, hands (a week short of mid-summer!). Still raining. Left both (filled) bottles on table outside cafe. Pressed on till mid-afternoon and had a meal in an Abergele pub (317k) - rain had stopped once north of Llansannan. Climb back out was easier than expected and soon down into Llanwrst (bought food/pizzas to cook) and after climb up and down to Swallow Falls/A5 dumped shopping at YH (quick tea at YH) and pressed on to Llanberis and back (45km there and back) in lovely evening sun. Benefitted from a tailwind back up to Pen-y-pas.
189km + circa 3000m in 13 hours ish with a fair bit stopped - roughly similar moving and average speeds to Day 1. Pleased with a good day's riding. Swallow Falls YH (394k) was excellent.
Expected (forecast) northerly to continue and therefore tail wind for Day 3 - regrettably not realised. Set off later than I ought at 6am from Swallow Falls and took 140 mins for the 37km to Denbigh (427km) and realised/decided that my speed made good (<14kph) was not going to get me to the finish in time (181km to Knighton in 11 hours, by 8pm) given the relentless hills, up and down. Breakfast in ?Morrisons? cafe just below right hand turn to Denbigh control. So, to get back to Knighton, left out Mold and after Llangollen, routed east of the hills, lower down via Oswestry, Welshpool, Montgomery and Bishop's Castle: 175km on Day 3 (as opposed to 217km and much more climb in general drizzle, and wet descents on narrow roads). Glad I made the decision as, from the 'no rain' Severn plain B roads, I could see the hills which the route traversed covered in low cloud.
My key lessons identified are:
1) Given pre-arranged accommodation, accept/plan for a late arrival Day 1 eg 10pm+.
2) Ration overnight stopped time and prioritise sleeping.
3) Don't underestimate the last day which has harder climbing than Day 1, harder descents (as far as I can see) so less beneficial to average speed, and for my plan/schedule, the longest day. One's average speed over the previous 2 days will give one a(n upper limit)  guide as to how long one needs to allow (and therefore a definite start 'no later than' time).
4) Try to hit better weather (and MTFU if actual worse than forecast).

I'd ridden 35 hours with 5 + hours sleep in a bed on the Bryan Chapman 3 weeks earlier, and that's got 7000m of climb.
When I give this another go (in 2020), I'll start earlier on Day 2, go on to Denbigh in the evening of Day2 and hopefully have better weather.
@CET - thank you for the organisation. I have control photos for the first 400k!
Thd other option given the 2nd night YH was convenient is to start later on day 1 giving a later finish time on day 3 and so more time to cover the 200km. I still think it is worth front loading the ride so dailh distance decreaes as fatigue increases. But that is dependant on suitable options. Arriving late on day 1 is less important than arriving late on day 3
   Eddington  87 miles

Re: ACP's Super Randonnee
« Reply #49 on: January 07, 2020, 12:00:19 am »

Stayed in Kington YH and started from Knighton at 0750. . . . and finished 2036.
219km + 4021m (Garmin)
Moving Time = 10:56
Elapsed Time 12:46
17.2 kph ave
20.1 kph moving
Overnight 15km NW of Llanidloes in bunkhouse just west of Staylittle (210k) - cooked dinner provided. In retrospect: too comfy and hospitable hosts, but supper and company, shower and bed were great.

When I give this another go (in 2020), I'll start earlier on Day 2, go on to Denbigh in the evening of Day2 . . .
Thd other option given the 2nd night YH was convenient is to start later on day 1 giving a later finish time on day 3 and so more time to cover the 200km. I still think it is worth front loading the ride so dailh distance decreaes as fatigue increases. But that is dependant on suitable options. Arriving late on day 1 is less important than arriving late on day 3
You're quite right about the last bit and I agree the 'front-loading' although that rather depends if you're a full value rider and how much you value decent sleep. In June I was also driven by wishing to finish D3/611k at Knighton in the 60 hours and then getting back to Kington YH before the doors closed - and my plan had loaded more than 215k onto D3. Though the Swallow Falls YH is great and almost right on route (349k and 394k) and you can check in and then do the Llanberis loop, I think it's unwise to leave more than 180k to D3. So Denbigh will be my planned D2 overnight next time, and I'll be prepared to arrive late/in the dark. @psyclist had a plan to ride this last year, but postponed to this year (he says).