Dave Yates framebuilding course

[Jurek]

That seat cluster looks gorgeous Alex.
Having done some silver soldering, as well as casting I don't underestimate the effort required to get it looking like that.
And yeah... stainless + polishing. It doesn't get done quickly.

[Nick H.]

Some aspects of the build are fairly rough and ready, aren't they? I'm thinking in particular of the hand-cutting of the mitres in porkins' post.

Indeed. I don't remember what Dave told us about that, but I imagine that when the tube ends will be hidden inside the lugs, the lugs are kept the correct distance from each other by the jig and all the empty spaces in the joint will be filled with molten brass, it matters not whether you're half a mm out. But I'm speculating. Hopefully Alex knows more.

[Mrs Pingu]

I can only begin to imagine the emotional connection you have with a bike that you've invested so much time and effort in.
Pingu's just mentioned the comment about people building frames for their partners, pointedly.
Har har, if I did all that I'd be building a C&C coupled tourer for moi. I'm 1 down in the n+1 stakes already

[alexb]

Whether you build lugged or filet brazed, the fit between the tubes has to be near perfect. The initial cutting of the mitres is done with a hacksaw and then finished with files.
After the third one, I could do them in a few minutes. Dave could cut an accurate mitre just with the saw, no filing required!

The lugs are decorative, if the mitre's no good, the brass will fill the space, but the lug will fail. If you go through the frame forums you'll see lots of examples of broken frames and test joints that have been cut open.

The beauty of doing this with Dave is that he can see quickly where you are going wrong and stop you before you end up learning through expensive mistakes!

[Sergeant Pluck]

The lugs are decorative

So the strength is provided only by the joint between the tube wall and the tube end? Thinking of a head tube / top tube join, for example. 

[LittleWheelsandBig]

Not entirely (you'll have seen photos for poorly mitred joints that eventually crack the lug) but if you are looking for a 'lifetime frame', effectively so.

[Nick H.]

I just hope Dave checked my work! I can't remember that bit of the course. My mind's a blank.

[clarion]

Lugs

[Andrij]

Lugs

Purtee.
 

[Tewdric]

Various shots of the frame joints

That frame is a work of art Alex.  I WILL do the Dave Yates course in the next few years and will probably build something very similar (even down to size by the looks of things) but without the polished bits.  I much prefer fillet brazed joints to lugs, and those look fantastically well made.  I assume that there is weeks of filing and sanding for the  average joe before the frame goes for painting?

Chapeau to you.

[Sergeant Pluck]

Not entirely (you'll have seen photos for poorly mitred joints that eventually crack the lug) but if you are looking for a 'lifetime frame', effectively so.

Yet when you look at a BB shell, the strength must come purely from the joint between the tube walls and the "lugs" of the shell: there is no end-to-side joint, IYSWIM.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

Correct, the lug wall isn't thick enough. A BB shell is a lot thicker.

[alexb]

Yes, when you handle a bottom bracket shell, it's a different beast. The tubes also pass right into the shell, so there's a much, much bigger contact area with a lugged BB. With a lugless BB, you can see that there's a lot bigger fillet where the tube meets the shell.

Shaping the fillets isn't too difficult. You do the initial filing when the joint is still very hot and that takes a lot of the metal off quite quickly. The final shaping when it cools down is also easy enough since the brass is quite soft. The trick is to make it all look seamless and flowing.

If you look at someone like Steve Garro, he can produce brass fillets that need almost no filing before the paint goes on. He's a true artisan.

The best frame building I've seen in the UK is Robin Mather. He's the closest to the American renewal of the "constructeur" tradition that originally came out of Europe.

There's so much more variety and talent in depth in the US it's really incredible.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

A few builders can fillet-braze in silver, it takes good temperature control.

[DrMekon]

The best frame building I've seen in the UK is Robin Mather. He's the closest to the American renewal of the "constructeur" tradition that originally came out of Europe.

Perhaps I am imagining it, but didn't Robin Mather start with a course with Dave Yates?

Are the US really ahead? I've always imagined that if you asked Dave nicely enough, he'd put do all the poncy bits for a price.

Your bike looks lovely. Really like the big headtube.

[Nick H.]

The most exquisitely built frames I've seen on the web are from Vanilla of Portland. I believe the waiting list is three years or something.

They only braze with silver because it "has a very low melting temperature. When a steel frame is built with silver, the matrix of the steel is left virtually unchanged and its strength unaffected. At $11 per oz., silver adds to the cost, but is well worth it."  But they don't look any better than AlexB's! Vanilla Bicycles - The Bikes

If you want to see what the septics are capable of I think you have to go to the NAHBS Google Images It makes our industry look rather humble.

[MSeries]

If you want to see what the septics are capable of I think you have to go to the NAHBS Google Images It makes our industry look rather humble.

I don't doubt that British makers are capable of bikes like those of the Americans, I suspect that Britishers are  not prepared to pay for such things.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

Some of the things the Yanks are doing are quite unusual e.g. wood inlays. I wouldn't want to pay a British builder to learn something novel for him.  I'd prefer to pay a Yank builder to do something exceptional that he already knows how to do. There is a lot to be said for experience.

[alexb]

What's really inspiring about the US scene is how young some of the builders are and how they are prepared to try out some pretty wild things.
That said, on the world scene, I guess some of the most influential builders now are Richard Sachs - whose frames look pretty unremarkable, but who has put an incredible amount of effort into refining tube and lug designs - and Darrell McCulloch, better known for Llewellyn cycles who is a master of the art of stainless lug carving.
Sacha White (Vanilla cycles) has actually closed his waiting list, it's gotten too long!
There are very many other incredible builders out there, but the reason the UK won't compete is that we are simply not willing to pay out £2-3,000 for a frameset in sufficient numbers to sustain the industry.

Riding custom bikes has hit the top end US business men in a big way, which is why the US can support custom motorbike, car and bike builders in the numbers it does.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

I think Joe Cosgrove (Frezoni in Oz) is a better builder than Darryl (Joe paints every Llewellyn frame) but isn't nearly as good a businessman.

[GrahamG]

Alex/Porkins - Thanks for posting those up. I'll get Suzi to have a look through the thread.

She loves the look of the fillet brazed joints and bare metal and is talking about just lacquering the frame to show it all off - I gather from these updates that it'll take a hell of a lot of TLC after the course to get everything suitably cleaned and polished up!

[alexb]

You can't leave the metal bare/lacquered. There are a few people who've tried this, but essentially the steel will rust. The lacquer/clear powder coat, whatever, will last about a year and then its porosity will allow rust to start to form.

I've seen this discussed a lot on the frame forums and I've never seen a convincing finish that seems to last.

[cyclone]

Timely reminder - NAHBS 2011 is this w/e coming expect lotsa new images over the next 7 days or so 

[alexb]

By the way, thanks for all the compliments about the frame. It does have a few things wrong with it. I thought it might be worth sharing...

The dropouts I used mean that the tubes have to be a minimum width. This means that the seat stays and fork ends have to be slightly larger diameter than those that can be used with slot dropouts. This has no real effect on the seat stays, but it does mean that the fork blades are slightly thicker at the wheel end than they could have been, which means the fork is a little less compliant than I wanted.

By building to a very compact geometry I had not realised that I needed to thin down the seat and chainstays. As a result, although the rear triangle is quite long, again, it's not as compliant as I'd hoped.

If I was building lots of frames, version 2.0 would have thinner stays and possibly I'd build a curve into them.

I placed a braze on for a rear light on the top of the right seat stay, but you can't fit the light because it fouls the brake (doh!). It will work with an Ultralight 3 point rack though, so no real problems.

Finally, in the end I think the head tube is a bit too long. I'd trim about 1cm from the height if I was building it again.

Last niggle - I always intended to use a Zefal XPS as the pump and fitted a pump peg to take it fitted to the LH chainstay. When you get the pump, you realise it's sized like a slightly overlong minipump! That said, there's no way I'd hang it under the top tube!

As a final little design detail, I fitted my bottle bosses slightly higher than usual so that I could reach them more easily. In general, bottle bosses are fitted as low as possible to keep the CofG low, but since this isn't a racing bike I don't have to worry about things like that!

Keep an eye on these forums for regular updates and lovely pictures, plus loads of advice from proper framebuilders!
The VSalon Framebuilder Forum
Frameforum - THE Handmade Bike Website!

[Zipperhead]

As a final little design detail, I fitted my bottle bosses slightly higher than usual so that I could reach them more easily. In general, bottle bosses are fitted as low as possible to keep the CofG low, but since this isn't a racing bike I don't have to worry about things like that!

That's a good idea - on my big frames (65cm) it's a real stretch to the bottles.

Keep an eye on these forums for regular updates and lovely pictures, plus loads of advice from proper framebuilders!
The VSalon Framebuilder Forum
Frameforum - THE Handmade Bike Website!

There's also this later in the year here - The UK Handmade and Boutique Bicycle Show 2011