Interesting or unusual planes?

[TimC]

Some of the stuff that Flight Lieutenant Mike Hale got up to with the Lightning makes for fun reading, too.

http://www.lightning.org.uk/oct04sotm.html

I know Mike Hale of old. While I wouldn't believe everything he says (especially after a beer or two!), he does have some wonderful stories about the Lightning. He was a relative latecomer, though, who (IIRC) joined the fleet as it was in its final few years at Binbrook (as the RAF had planned for me too, but I had other ideas!). The stories from earlier times are at least as good - I should know; I have to listen to them regularly...

[TimC]

The Lightning was a successful plane, but the Canberra was the most significant aircraft to bear the English Electric name. Obviously I prefer their cookers and refigerators, but each to their own.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_Electric_Canberra

Lasting until 2006 (in the RAF), it made the Shackleton's operation seem but a brief period.

That was of course the PR9, and I remember a tale of how a U2 pilot was annoyed, when he was told that he couldn't manoeuvre, because there was a PR9 descending from above him.

One of those tales that is more fun because it doesn't really give an accurate comparison of the two aircraft's capabilities! The PR9, great aeroplane though it was, topped out at around 60,000'. The U2 - as Mike Hale recalls - operated routinely considerably higher than that.

[clarion]

Anyone interested on Canberras should visit Newark Air Museum.

[LEE]

Now then Chaps

Seen over the workshop this afternoon 



Cheers

Dave Yates

I always find it surprising that jet "fighters", such as the F4 Phantom, F15 Eagle and even the latest F22 Raptor are only about 6-8 feet shorter than a Lancaster.  Not that much more that the tail-gunner pod really.

[TimO]

One of those tales that is more fun because it doesn't really give an accurate comparison of the two aircraft's capabilities! The PR9, great aeroplane though it was, topped out at around 60,000'. The U2 - as Mike Hale recalls - operated routinely considerably higher than that.

Well, according to Wikipedia, the Canberra held the world altitude record of 70310 feet in 1957.  Now, I doubt that was a typical Canberra, it was probably tweaked (if not heavily modified!) to achieve that, but it demonstrates that it was capable of going higher quite a few years ago.

According to some of the RAF bods I talked to (and I can't remember the exact details, but it wasn't down the pub!) the PR9 had been modified substantially from the older variants to increase its capabilities, including it's ceiling.

Of course, the exact performance characteristics of both aircraft were classified, and so no one knows (or is at liberty to discuss, yet) the exact ceilings, and I suspect even then it would be heavily caveated in terms of of payload and how willing you were to take the aircraft into a dodgy flight regime eg the oft discussed Coffin Corner of the U2.  I doubt the PR9 was capable of exceeding the limits of the U2, given that the aerodynamic construction of the U2 is more suggestive of high altitude operations than the relatively short wings of the Canberra, but it may have been capable of approaching it under some circumstances.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

The RAAF used Canberras for extremely low level bombing in Vietnam. A very versatile and useful aircraft.

[TimC]

One of those tales that is more fun because it doesn't really give an accurate comparison of the two aircraft's capabilities! The PR9, great aeroplane though it was, topped out at around 60,000'. The U2 - as Mike Hale recalls - operated routinely considerably higher than that.

Well, according to Wikipedia, the Canberra held the world altitude record of 70310 feet in 1957.  Now, I doubt that was a typical Canberra, it was probably tweaked (if not heavily modified!) to achieve that, but it demonstrates that it was capable of going higher quite a few years ago.

According to some of the RAF bods I talked to (and I can't remember the exact details, but it wasn't down the pub!) the PR9 had been modified substantially from the older variants to increase its capabilities, including it's ceiling.

Of course, the exact performance characteristics of both aircraft were classified, and so no one knows (or is at liberty to discuss, yet) the exact ceilings, and I suspect even then it would be heavily caveated in terms of of payload and how willing you were to take the aircraft into a dodgy flight regime eg the oft discussed Coffin Corner of the U2.  I doubt the PR9 was capable of exceeding the limits of the U2, given that the aerodynamic construction of the U2 is more suggestive of high altitude operations than the relatively short wings of the Canberra, but it may have been capable of approaching it under some circumstances.

The PR9 was capable in line fit of around a 65,000ft ceiling. I'm pretty sure that operations above 60k were rare as special pressure kit was needed. The 70k record flight was - as you suggest - fettled to get the desired result, and wasn't representative of the Canberra's daily capabilities. In a similar way, Lockheed managed to get the C130A to 52,000ft in a trial. The best I ever managed in it was 42,000ft, and that was a deliberate effort in a stripped-out, external tank-free, far more powerful C130K! A more realistic ceiling for a line aircraft was around 33,000ft, and normal cruise would be around 25,000ft. So records prove little about what the aeroplane is really capable of. I'm more than pretty sure the U2 has been up to 80,000ft or more, and that it operates daily at 70,000ft and above.

Edit to add: the U2B's service ceiling is given by Lockheed as 27,400m. That's 90,420ft!

[Mr Larrington]

In the late 60s and early 70s I remember with great affection flying home from Ghana on both Ghana Airways and BOAC VC10s.

I, OTOH, hated the things.  It took twenty-four hours and four intermediate stops to get from LHR to Kai Tak.  The first 747s on that route were greeted with the fervour normally associated with liberating armies.

[clarion]

Last night, I saw the Goodyear airship again.  This time over Pimlico, and later over Fulham.

This evening, I saw three aircraft travelling slowly north in formation.  Two were large dark coloured helicopters - about Puma sized.  The third was different, but too far and at too shallow an angle to discern.  It may have been a helicopter, but looked more like a small, fixed-wing.  Though I couldn't see if it had wings.

They were flying parallel to, but east of the normal flightpath to Battersea heliport, somewhere over Wallington-ish.

[TimC]

In the late 60s and early 70s I remember with great affection flying home from Ghana on both Ghana Airways and BOAC VC10s.

I, OTOH, hated the things.  It took twenty-four hours and four intermediate stops to get from LHR to Kai Tak.  The first 747s on that route were greeted with the fervour normally associated with liberating armies.

Akrotiri, Sharjah or Masirah, Gan and Changi? Before my time, but not really the fault of the aeroplane! If the RAF had had a couple of bases slightly differently spaced, they could have done it in three rather than five legs, and saved maybe four hours. I do remember doing HKG-LHR in the classic 747 and being very uncertain whether we had enough fuel to do it! Before Chinese airspace was liberalised, the route went north and east over Japan before making any westward progress. 15 hours or more wasn't unusual! No problem for my A340, but a B742 was a different matter...

[Oscar's dad]

Accra to London could be done in one hop, over the Sahara. One Christmas I was lucky enough to get a pair of kiddy binoculars. The next time we flew home I insisted on taking them on the plane to see if I could spot any camels as we flew over. I didn't.

[TimC]

I still look for them, OD, on my frequent crossings to/from Lagos and Accra. I'll let you know if I see any!

[Oscar's dad]

I still look for them, OD, on my frequent crossings to/from Lagos and Accra. I'll let you know if I see any!

 

[Exit Stage Left]

The Canberra variant still in service is the Martin RB-57F. Nasa use them because they can carry a large payload at high altitude.
http://www.spyflight.co.uk/rb57.htm

[clarion]

I mentioned Newark Air Museum.  They have three Canberras, three cockpits, and umpteen models of various variants.

It must be something about the mid-wing engine.  They have four Meteors, too.

http://www.newarkairmuseum.org/

[Charlotte]

Last night, I saw the Goodyear airship again.  This time over Pimlico, and later over Fulham.

Yeah, me too.  I took a photograph of it with my big lens.   Interesting - I've never been able to see the gondola before, it doesn't look much bigger than a large car.

[clarion]

Interesting tailplane detail.

[Oscar's dad]

Last night, I saw the Goodyear airship again.  This time over Pimlico, and later over Fulham.

Yeah, me too.  I took a photograph of it with my big lens.   Interesting - I've never been able to see the gondola before, it doesn't look much bigger than a large car.

At last some clever dick has managed to get round the Congestion Charge and London parking problems in one fell swoop!

[Charlotte]

I didn't realise it would have ailerons.  Makes sense, though.

[LEE]

Not a plane I know but they are very beautiful in a sinister, form following function, sort of way.

The Apaches fly out of Middle Wallop near me and I never tire of seeing them "hedge-hopping" across the lanes.

[Auntie Helen]

We see them a lot round here too (near RAF Wattisham).

What's scary is that the front gun seems to track where the pilot looks so if he peers down at you (what's that weird bike?) he appears to be aiming his gun right at you!

[TimC]

I didn't realise it would have ailerons.  Makes sense, though.

Actually, they're elevators. It has rudders too. They are used effectively to pitch or yaw the envelope to vector the thrust so that the airship goes in the required direction. There's no need to roll the vehicle to give a lift vector into a turn - it has no lift vector!

[Oscar's dad]

We see them a lot round here too (near RAF Wattisham).

What's scary is that the front gun seems to track where the pilot looks so if he peers down at you (what's that weird bike?) he appears to be aiming his gun right at you!

Yes, the gun follows the pilot's eye!  (S)He wears a monocular thing.

[Mr Larrington]

When we came back from HK to Brize Norton with the RAF they only stopped at Gan and Akrotiri - this was in 1974.  However the first time I went out there we stopped at Rome, Tehran, Delhi and Rangoon.  IIRC the 747s went something like LHR - Bahrain - Bangkok - HK.

[CrinklyLion]

On the way home from school (apologies for rubbish phone pic)