Author Topic: Being barged  (Read 19441 times)

Spikey

Being barged
« on: 08 December, 2010, 09:55:03 am »
This morning I was physically barged into the curb by a car. I was travelling at about 25mph downhill towards a narrow pinch point and braking gently so that I would catch and match the speed of the car ahead. I was well out into the middle of the road (primary position) for several reasons 1) to try and prevent dangerous overtaking, 2) to avoid possible ice near the side, 3) give myself enough safety margin. Somewhat predictably the car driver behind pulls alongside on my right and then cuts back towards the curb try to spear my arm with her wing mirror. Desipite my shouting, braking hard and serving I still found my elbow bouncing off her rear side. She didn't stop but slowed enough to shout that I shouldnt have been in the middle of the road, which leads me to believe that she was deliberately trying to bully me out of the way.

What worries me is that this sort of incident is an increasingly common scenario where a following vehicle starts to overtake and then pulls back in under braking while approaching a pinch point, junction, queued traffic or other obvious hazzard. Most of the time these are low speed incidents which can be avoided by braking hard and swerving. But there is a small minority which are just plain dangerous, especially in cold weather when there might be ice in the gutter/verge.

Other examples this week:
1) This morning. 100 yards later I was forced to brake to standstill to avoid a bus pulling left accross a mandoratory cycle lane.
2) Yesterday. While following car ahead, I was pushed in to an icy/snowy gutter by an overtaking vehicle.
3) Monday. I was pushed into snow/ice and nearly hit by a 4x4 overtaking while I was slowing for queued traffic and a pinch point.

My question is how can I cycle more safely to try and prevent such incidents?
Where do you draw the line between:
a) being assertive and holding ones position and risking a low speed collision?
b) timidly yielding priority to any driver who might want to overtake?

tiermat

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Re: Being barged
« Reply #1 on: 08 December, 2010, 09:57:53 am »
May I suggest an RPG? Or slightly less dangerously DH gloves (they make a hell of a noise when clattered along the side of a car).

Hope the bike is ok :)
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clarion

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Re: Being barged
« Reply #2 on: 08 December, 2010, 10:06:46 am »
That's horrible.

Yet recognisable.  There are an awful lot of motorists who drive according to what they think ought to be there and if, in their not so humble opinion, you are in their way, it is perfectly reasonable to shove you out of the way to correct you, or just 'give you a scare', as one convicted motorist recently alleged IIRC, in order that you learn to do the right thing, which is ride in the cycle lane or on the pavement (except when their frail old grandmother is there, as she's been knocked down a hundred times and killed to deth twice by hooligan cyclists).
Getting there...

LindaG

Re: Being barged
« Reply #3 on: 08 December, 2010, 10:07:59 am »
There is a lot of this kind of behaviour around at the moment.  I blame the baby Jesus. 

ed_o_brain

Re: Being barged
« Reply #4 on: 08 December, 2010, 10:13:52 am »
There's not really much you can do to account for such feck-wittery.
When in traffic on a narrow road where there's oncoming traffic, I tend to ride in primary - there's physically not space for the driver of the car behind to try and pass.

On a wider road, or where there's no oncoming traffic, I tend to ride on the off-side corner of the car in front, far enough back so I've got time to stop/swerve if the driver of the car in front stops suddenly, but not so far back the driver of the car behind is more likely to become impatient thinking they should be in the gap ahead of me. Rarely then will they flank my left, but sometimes they do. How I respond depends on the situation, if it's non-aggressive I'll close the gap between myself and the car in front. If I feel I'm being endangered, I'll drop back allowing the driver to undertake. Then sit on their off-side corner so they have a clear view of me in their mirror and hopefully realise what they had just done was quite fruitless. If the 'undertaking' driver really is going nuts about it, I'll just drop back. It's not worth it.

andygates

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Re: Being barged
« Reply #5 on: 08 December, 2010, 10:14:33 am »
Belt the back of the car and remonstrate with doom and flaming eyes.

But by crikey, you're having a run of crappy luck there.

Physical barging is serious business.  You've been pushed into the snow by drivers several times?  Really?
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Re: Being barged
« Reply #6 on: 08 December, 2010, 10:16:48 am »
That sounds really extreme.
I've often had cars try to overtake when I'm in primary and there isn't room, then try to move back in on top of me. Never had one actually make contact when I've held my ground. Sounds like you've just encountered a nutter.
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LindaG

Re: Being barged
« Reply #7 on: 08 December, 2010, 10:18:31 am »
This happened to me twice in one journey last week - forced off the road, but no impact.

Several near misses after that.

It's put me back in the car for the moment.  Srsly, it's scary out there right now.

It seems others' mileage varies?

Spikey, where in the country do you live?  And is this behaviour worse since the snow?

HTFB

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Re: Being barged
« Reply #8 on: 08 December, 2010, 10:31:11 am »
There's not really much you can do to account for such feck-wittery.
When in traffic  ... If the 'undertaking' driver really is going nuts about it, I'll just drop back. It's not worth it.


In all circumstances you're better off with the fuckwits in front than behind, of course.
Not especially helpful or mature

Re: Being barged
« Reply #9 on: 08 December, 2010, 10:32:16 am »
Must be the morning for it. Had a muppet in an Audi gun it past me, swerved in too hard and I had to lay on the brakes to avoid being hit. He overdid it though and dumped his front wheel into the snow bank so I politely pointed and laughed.

All I can really reccomend is that you ride as assertively as possible while retaining enough space to be safe. You need to judge each overtaking driver on their own merits. For instance, if you are riding in the primary position and someone still chooses to start overtaking then that's an indication to start braking to give yourself more space. It's fairly safe to assume that they are either arrogant or dangerously stupid.

In the recent weather a lot of drivers have been panicked and uncertain about the road, their vehicle and even their own skills or otherwise misguided, arrogant and overconfident, especially those in SUV's.

Re: Being barged
« Reply #10 on: 08 December, 2010, 11:55:12 am »
When I move into primary before pinchpoints I feel more vulnerable, even though I know it's usually in my best interests to do so. This heightened sense of fear means that I look behind me more often (in an attempt to get eye contact) and am very wary of drivers coming past and squeezing me. To this end, I move left or brake to try and avoid getting pushed to the kerb at, or just before pinchpoints - I do this if I'm sure the driver is coming through regardless.

In this vid, I knew the cab was coming past and I moved left in order to facilitate the overtake before the next pinch-point.  I could have held my line, but the driver was close behind and I wanted to let him past as it made my life easier.
    YouTube
        - Pinch Points and a Taxi - Defensive Cycling 6!
  


In other situations, things can develop quickly and you'll often find yourself with limited choices.

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Re: Being barged
« Reply #11 on: 08 December, 2010, 11:59:50 am »
It occurred to me that finding the need to carry a garden fork* sideways across your rack with the tines pointing out may be a good idea.

Note I have never tred this myself etc.

*so you can public-spiritedly break up the ice when it seems like a good idea.  Or something else wider than your handlebars etc.
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Spikey

Re: Being barged
« Reply #12 on: 08 December, 2010, 12:16:06 pm »
Spikey, where in the country do you live?  And is this behaviour worse since the snow?
Bristol, very little snow, a light dusting at most and heavy frosts. Since Sunday when it was dangerously icy (even on some more major roads), I'm acutely aware of the potential for black ice. Hence I'm being deliberately more assertive about road positioning and a lot more gentle on the brakes. In particular I want to keep out away from anything that looks wet (potential ice) or frozen. Unfurtunately a lot of driver behavior is unchanged. I don't think they appetiate the potential dangers of ice,  and don't seem to appetiate that my road positioning is deliberate for safety reasons. The net result is that actions that require hard braking and or serving off line into the gutter, now carry a much higher risk of accident. Hence they are much more dangerous (or at least they apear that way to me). E.g. on a normal day I would have been able to avoid this mornings incident, but the uncertain nature of the roads meant that I was too reluctant to brake really hard.

It's worth noting that most of these cases are while slowing for traffic and hence at relatively low speed and hence low risk of any serious damage. It just really annoys me that a significant minority of drivers are prepared to use physical size to bully more vulnerable road users out of their way.



Biggsy

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Re: Being barged
« Reply #13 on: 08 December, 2010, 12:30:21 pm »
I think contact in this sort of situation is so rare that you need not worry too much for the future.

Of course use the primary position when needed for your safety, but don't get into it much earlier than needed in order to minimse the amount of perceived wind-up to the motorist.

Base the amount of safe overtaking room you need on speed (yours + others') as well as the width of the carriageway.

Re ice:  I hate to ever discourage anyone from cycling, but consider not cycling at all when there's ice about.  It could easily be in the middle of the lanes as well as at the edges.  One simple fall on your hip, for example, could mean weeks of no cycling at all, then a certain amount of weakness and niggles for the rest of your life. 
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corshamjim

Re: Being barged
« Reply #14 on: 08 December, 2010, 12:48:40 pm »
Getting it 'right' is probably impossible and certainly a bit of a fine art.

I ride a very upright position which gives me a commanding view of the traffic and I'm sure makes me more visible.  I sometimes wonder if that improves my standing in the pecking-order a bit too.  It certainly helps me in making eye-contact with drivers so they're more aware of what I'm intending to do.

I confess too I'm lucky living where I do in rural Wiltshire - there seem to be mercifully few morons around here.

border-rider

Re: Being barged
« Reply #15 on: 08 December, 2010, 01:14:37 pm »
Of course use the primary position when needed for your safety, but don't get into it much earlier than needed in order to minimse the amount of perceived wind-up to the motorist.

Yes, this is important, but conversely once you're there you should be far enough out that a driver has to really go right over the white line if they're to get alongside you.  Moving out further if they try also helps; an approaching concrete pedestrian refuge is a good deterrent.

Spikey

Re: Being barged
« Reply #16 on: 08 December, 2010, 01:28:18 pm »
I think contact in this sort of situation is so rare ....
This may depend on where you ride. If I ride out into the contry, its rarely a problem. However, in the city it is.
I estimate that if wasn't to take unnecesary avoiding action (e.g. swerving or braking harder than desirable), I would have several collisions a week caused by vehicles overtaking and cutting in while braking, or pulling out in front of me. Now most of these are avoidable by simple braking, swerving, but it still annoys me that so many drivers assume that the cyclist can and will get out of the way in order to avoid an accident. The problem is that this sort of behavior leaves little safety margin. So what might be merely inconsiderate and annoying in normal conditions becomes dangerous in slippery conditions. If the driver makes a slight misjudgement then the lack of safety margin becomes dangerous.

I'm reminded of an incident a couple of years back when a driver who failed to give way pulled out in front of me. He was adamant  that it was my fault as he thought he had left me enough space to stop or swerve around him. I had to quote the wet weather stopping distances advised by cyclecraft in order to convince his insurance company to pay.


Re: Being barged
« Reply #17 on: 08 December, 2010, 01:48:28 pm »
Shame Spikey, poor you!

For those who think bullying behaviour is not at all common, that's simply wrong:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/qyir36VT9Do&rel=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/qyir36VT9Do&rel=1</a>
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/6aharVhUCWA&rel=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/6aharVhUCWA&rel=1</a>
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Biggsy

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Re: Being barged
« Reply #18 on: 08 December, 2010, 02:07:17 pm »
Bullying behaviour is common.  Getting hit is uncommon.

I've been riding in London for 30 years and have NEVER had contact from the sort of situations you describe, Spikey.  I don't have to brake or swerve to avoid a collision terribly often either.  Outragously close overtakes and tailgaits: yes, thousands, but actual hits whilst or after overtaking, none.  (The only time I've been hit is after I braked hard; the driver went into the back of me).

Perhaps it's just because my position isn't too annoying for too much of the time.  Well, it's annoying enough for them to sound their horn and shout things sometimes, but not hit me with their motors, yet.

Quote
I estimate that if wasn't to take unnecesary avoiding action (e.g. swerving or braking harder than desirable), I would have several collisions a week caused by vehicles overtaking and cutting in while braking, or pulling out in front of me.

I suspect either your estimate is wrong, or you could be doing something better - not that I can work out what that might be from your posts.
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Re: Being barged
« Reply #19 on: 08 December, 2010, 02:17:14 pm »
Bullying behaviour is common.  Getting hit is uncommon.

Quote
I estimate that if wasn't to take unnecesary avoiding action (e.g. swerving or braking harder than desirable), I would have several collisions a week caused by vehicles overtaking and cutting in while braking, or pulling out in front of me.

I suspect either your estimate is wrong, or you could be doing something better - not that I can work out what that might be from your posts.

I agree with the first bit Biggsy, but not with the second.  I'm sure we all have to take regular avoiding action for others' mistakes on the road, and that a collision would have been likely otherwise.  (In fairness, people have taken avoiding action for my own mistakes too.)

Like I imagine for most other cyclists on here, my thanks are 1-2 orders of magnitude more common than my castigating drivers.
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Biggsy

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Re: Being barged
« Reply #20 on: 08 December, 2010, 02:37:24 pm »
The avoiding action I take tends to be in advance of a potential mistake rather than afterwards.

For example, I slow right down (gently) if there is a car in front coming from a side turning if it has not completely stopped with plenty of room in front and with the driver looking my way, regardless of the fact that I have right of way.

Emergency hard braking and dramatic swerving to avoid collisions: I really have had to do little of that since I was a teenager being silly.  With the right mix of defensive and assertive cycling, you can actually be quite chilled out for much of the time even on busy urban roads, and not get hit.
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andygates

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Re: Being barged
« Reply #21 on: 08 December, 2010, 02:53:43 pm »
Bristol's boisterous but not hell on earth.  Something's not right with this picture - either your estimate of what maketh an incident (after all we should all be alert and responsive all the time) or you're, er, riding so wide and slow as to hack everyone off?
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Re: Being barged
« Reply #22 on: 08 December, 2010, 03:04:02 pm »
The avoiding action I take tends to be in advance of a potential mistake rather than afterwards.

For example, I slow right down (gently) if there is a car in front coming from a side turning if it has not completely stopped with plenty of room in front and with the driver looking my way, regardless of the fact that I have right of way.


Emergency hard braking and dramatic swerving to avoid collisions: I really have had to do little of that since I was a teenager being silly.  With the right mix of defensive and assertive cycling, you can actually be quite chilled out for much of the time even on busy urban roads, and not get hit.

Yeah, I get what you mean, and I agree with the chilled out part.  This video might be a good example of your bolded bit, yes?

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/ErtNTbqSMjE&rel=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/ErtNTbqSMjE&rel=1</a>

That still fits with what I read from the OP.  I expect that if I hadn't avoided the Porsche driver's mistake, we'd probably have collided.  I was still chilled out, and he waved a sincere apology since he never once looked right, only left.

Andy and others - perhaps we could be a bit more positive about the OP's cycling ability?  I'd like to assume that he is a competent and experienced cyclist simply experiencing a bit of frustration with moton randomness.  Incident might mean nothing more than a competent bit of avoiding the driver's stupid annoying impatience, rather than "ZOMG I nearly DIED".
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Biggsy

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Re: Being barged
« Reply #23 on: 08 December, 2010, 03:17:41 pm »
^ I agree with you there, Wendy, and the video is indeed a good example of defensive cycling.  It's not something you should have to do, but is wise to, and no-one's too stressed.

I also expect/hope that Spikey is plenty competent enough already and has just had perception of general danger shaken up by today's knock.  It would be enough to give anyone second thoughts.
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Re: Being barged
« Reply #24 on: 08 December, 2010, 03:28:00 pm »
Bristol's boisterous but not hell on earth.  Something's not right with this picture - either your estimate of what maketh an incident (after all we should all be alert and responsive all the time) or you're, er, riding so wide and slow as to hack everyone off?
Probably too small a sample to read too much into.

Spikey:
I'm just wondering whether you gave these drivers a look over your shoulder? Of course you shouldn't need to, but that can make the difference in stopping a driver treating you like an obstacle that needs shoving out of the way.

(Sometimes I do this at pinch-points, sometimes I'd rather look at the road ahead of me, especially with dodgy surfaces!)
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