Being barged

[mrcharly-YHT]

Eye contact doesn't always stop them.

On one route home there is a 1mile downhill through a 30mph zone. In the dark, in winter, I usually take primary, as its easy to hit 30 going down there.

One night this car tries to overtake. Visibility (for me) is poor, and there is a car 1.5 car lengths in front of me, so there is no way I'm going to get pushed towards the gutter or have to brake to allow a car to push in. As the overtaking car tried to pass, I drifted out a bit. It came alongside me, with the driver looking across at me. By now, they were actually over the white line, with oncoming traffic, and no room in front of me to pull in. They gave in and dropped back, but only just in time.
   
I could have hit my brakes, pulled in to the kerb and let them in. I would have had to hit the brakes again, to avoid the next car, and the next and the next. Just not safe or sensible.

I've had similar happenings, probably nearly once a week on that road. Never had a car actually hit me, like Spikey described. That sounds like a random loon.

[Spikey]

The avoiding action I take tends to be in advance of a potential mistake rather than afterwards.

For example, I slow right down (gently) if there is a car in front coming from a side turning if it has not completely stopped with plenty of room in front and with the driver looking my way, regardless of the fact that I have right of way.

Emergency hard braking and dramatic swerving to avoid collisions: I really have had to do little of that since I was a teenager being silly.  With the right mix of defensive and assertive cycling, you can actually be quite chilled out for much of the time even on busy urban roads, and not get hit.

I wasn't specificly referring to dramatic hard braking or swerving, but including any instance of what would otherwise be unnecesary swerving or braking. In most cases this is low risk but merely inconsiderate and annoying, but throw in a bit of misjudgement and potentially slippery roads and what was merely inconsiderate and annoying becomes dangerous. I think the high number of instances requiring minor braking, swerving is indicative, of the amount of deliberatly aggressive/risky driving around. So far this week I've been lucky twice that frost/light snow at the side of road, that I've been pushed into wasn't concealing black ice. This morning I was able to anticpate enough to avoid a serious collision, and emerged unscathed but very annoyed.

It also annoys me that I have to regularly take action in anticipation of other drivers mistakes. E.g. yesterday I was forced to give way twice to vehicles pulling out in front of me. I doubt that either saw me. What really really annoys me are drivers who deliberately try and bully me off the road. E.g. this morning its clear that the driver saw me since she pulled out to the right accross some cross hatchings. I'm fairly sure she knew I was on her inside as she pulled back left since she continued to pull left after a warning shout and made no attempt at an appology. I accept that she might have misjudged my speed and how hard I would have to brake. In summary she misjudged a clearly risky overtake.

Now I accept that I might be being overestimating the potential danger associated with possible ice. But I am accutely aware of it after several unseen slippery momemnts on Sunday and another one (separate to the above) this morning. Its bad enough without drivers taking pot-shots.
 
PS. A 4th reason for adopting primary this morning was to avoid the door zone around parked cars prior to the pinch point. IMO very few drivers appretiate the need to keep clear of parked cars.

[Jaded]

Being seen to look back is important, IMHO. Even if you don't actually see much, as it gives the impression that you are aware of your surroundings.

Also important again IMHO, is signalling thanks to drivers that hold back, or ones that you have been holding up. It shows the drivers behind that you are fully aware of what is going on around you and makes a difference to their behaviour, in my experience.

[matthew]

I read the OP as saying that he adopts a defensive road possition to avoid potential hazards ahead and is being forced (possibly intimidated) out of it. This is part why I take defensive possitions, it gives me the space and options to bale out into.

I am fortunate to ride and commute on relatively rural roads which do not require me to adopt such defensive possitions and I am also pig headed enough to hold my line when I do. drivers may be coming my way but generally they really don't want to scratch their car so they won't actually hit me. However once a car is in front of me I have to assume I have been forgotten and I won't play the same way round HGVs. Once the cab of an artic is passed me I assume he is coming back left and have frequently had to brake to get out of a narrowing gap.

Personally I will never allow myself to be intimidated into a door zone. This is not an escape area as it is a major hazard.

[Charlotte]

Apart from riding as assertively as I can and using my road position to make it very clear to following traffic that I am not going to let them overtake until it's safe for them to do so, I have found one other thing that works quite well.

I now carry my U-lock in one of these:



I find it gives out the most splendid subliminal message 

[David Martin]

I now carry my U-lock in one of these:



I find it gives out the most splendid subliminal message 

That is either a very small U-lock, or a very big bum.

[Spikey]

Spikey:
I'm just wondering whether you gave these drivers a look over your shoulder? Of course you shouldn't need to, but that can make the difference in stopping a driver treating you like an obstacle that needs shoving out of the way.

(Sometimes I do this at pinch-points, sometimes I'd rather look at the road ahead of me, especially with dodgy surfaces!)

I agree that this might have helped. On Mondays incident the wether was particularly inclement. A very heavy frost on the road, fog, light fall of snow on the ground and bit more snow in the air. Hence I was concentrating on piking the safest line. Todays case is a moderately steep descent with parked cars, sideroads and pedestrians around. Theres more than enough to worry about without haveing to eyeball following drivers. Possibly I was going a tad fast, but well under the 30mph limit.

I going to quit discussing this and go and have a coffee and try and regain my cool before the ride home.

[ScumOfTheRoad]

That is either a very small U-lock, or a very big bum.

There is some advice on the late, great Sheldon Brown's pages. Use a D-lock which is as small as you can find - then attach lock not around the frame but around the rear wheel, within the rear triangle (ie lock is between seat and chain stays, but not around either.
Thief cannot get a bottle jack or similar into a small chackle lock, and has to hacksaw through wheel rim and tyre to get lock off. Seemingly the wheel rim is under tension, which makes this a touch job, and thief is making bicycle unrideable by doing this. I have never put this advice to the test.

[Greenbank]

I now carry my U-lock in one of these:



I find it gives out the most splendid subliminal message 

That is either a very small U-lock, or a very big bum.

That's the Hip-Cracker 2000 D-Lock.

(IMHO it's an absolutely bonkers way to carry a D-lock but who am I to argue with hipster fashion.)

[Wendy]

Being seen to look back is important, IMHO. Even if you don't actually see much, as it gives the impression that you are aware of your surroundings.

Also important again IMHO, is signalling thanks to drivers that hold back, or ones that you have been holding up. It shows the drivers behind that you are fully aware of what is going on around you and makes a difference to their behaviour, in my experience.

That's very good advice.  But sometimes:

Eye contact doesn't always stop them.

I'm with Spikey.  It's very annoying, unnecessary, and it does up the risk to us.  It's one reason why I youtube.

[Biggsy]

I certainly agree there's far too much bad and aggressive driving around - it's just that it's very rare in my experience to be an actual serious problem.

Spikey, rather than let it wind you up, treat it as a challenge, and positively enjoy doing an expert job, even when it involves manouvres that shouldn't be necessary if everyone else was fully considerate.  Ok, you still get annoyed with drivers, but ten seconds later after a shout, just forget it and get back to your good mood.  There's more than enough in life to feel sad about.  Don't let cycling be one of them!

The biggest danger for me is simply slipping over on a bend - and that has nothing to do with anyone else (except for the local council or highways authority if they haven't treated or repaired the road surface properly).

[Wendy]

I have a particular example from Sunday I'll youtube up later this week where I let the red mist descent for a few seconds and nearly thumped the car.  That's pretty rare though, I mostly cycle happily on my merry way.  I dunno if you noticed, but I have quite a few comments on my vids where people can't believe how calm I am.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

Seemingly the wheel rim is under tension, which makes this a touch job, and thief is making bicycle unrideable by doing this.

Rim is under compression, not tension, so closes and tends to jam the cutting tool.

[Greenbank]

Off topic diversion about locking the rear wheel moved here: http://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=41498.0

[Karla]

Bullying behaviour is common.  Getting hit is uncommon.

I've been riding in London for 30 years and have NEVER had contact from the sort of situations you describe, Spikey.  I don't have to brake or swerve to avoid a collision terribly often either.  Outragously close overtakes and tailgaits: yes, thousands, but actual hits whilst or after overtaking, none.  (The only time I've been hit is after I braked hard; the driver went into the back of me).

Perhaps it's just because my position isn't too annoying for too much of the time.  Well, it's annoying enough for them to sound their horn and shout things sometimes, but not hit me with their motors, yet.

I estimate that if wasn't to take unnecesary avoiding action (e.g. swerving or braking harder than desirable), I would have several collisions a week caused by vehicles overtaking and cutting in while braking, or pulling out in front of me.

I suspect either your estimate is wrong, or you could be doing something better - not that I can work out what that might be from your posts.

Maybe I've just been unlucky, but I've been wing mirrored on the right by an overtaking van while riding at the side of the road, whacked on the left by an undertaking van while taking primary at a pinch point and forced onto the pavement by a van (sense a theme here) deliberately (I'm sure) driving at me in a similar situation. That's in less than half your cycling time, so while defensive riding can help, it's not a panacea.

[border-rider]

Bullying behaviour is common.  Getting hit is uncommon.

My experience also.  But then we all ride in different places.  I found central London OK but places like Reading perhaps scarier sometimes - more aggressive/incompetent drivers.

I suspect that Bristol - or parts of it - may be somewhere different to my own usual experience

[ed_o_brain]

<snip>

Maybe I've just been unlucky, but I've been wing mirrored on the right by an overtaking van while riding at the side of the road, whacked on the left by an undertaking van while taking primary at a pinch point and forced onto the pavement by a van (sense a theme here) deliberately (I'm sure) driving at me in a similar situation. That's in less than half your cycling time, so while defensive riding can help, it's not a panacea.

One road in Telford was notoriously bad.

First occasion, approaching a pedestrian refuge which creates a narrow pinch point and riding in secondary position*, when a taxi driver first overtakes literally squeezing through the remaining gap ahead, quickly followed by the driver who was tailgating the taxi. The second driver collided with the illuminated bollards on the pedestrian refuge having realised he had a choice of hitting them or hitting me.

On the second occasion, in the opposite direction so heading down hill at some speed, I was approaching a pedestrian refuge (so again another squeeze) in primary position. Mr. Van driver, who insists on overtaking there and then actually drives over the refuge demolishing both illuminated bollards and continues on his way.

Third occasion, again on the same road, this time on approach to a mini roundabout, I'm slowing down to give way when a woman squeezes up behind me so closely that her nearside front wing brushes my front pannier.


After that, I stopped using that road and went a different way. I still think Telford's quite a crap place to cycle.

*at the time I didn't know that much better

[Biggsy]

I would have thought it would have made it to the national press if it was common for cyclists to get hit in Bristol (or in any one particular place), as well as there being more reports on this forum.

I would be shocked to learn that it's common for cyclists to get hit in any part of the UK.  And hopefully Mr Bunbury is indeed just unlucky to have more than one hit in ~15 years.

With respect, isolated stories from individuals don't mean much (mine included).  I don't think we get a lot of reports of hits on this forum in proportion to the number of members and miles covered.  And surely it's something that would make even the quitest member post a message?

[mattc]

I still think Telford's quite a crap place to cycle.

I doubt I'm the only who sees Telford at the start of an anecdote, then has a very pessimistic view of how it will end  

Being seen to look back is important, IMHO. Even if you don't actually see much, as it gives the impression that you are aware of your surroundings.

My hunch is that, more importantly, it makes a driver aware of you as a human being that might suffer consequences beyond panel damage if squished.

Of course this makes no difference to certain members of the human race, but I like to think that the majority are open to persuasion.

[alexb]

Being seen to look back is important, IMHO. Even if you don't actually see much, as it gives the impression that you are aware of your surroundings.

Also important again IMHO, is signalling thanks to drivers that hold back, or ones that you have been holding up. It shows the drivers behind that you are fully aware of what is going on around you and makes a difference to their behaviour, in my experience.

That's very good advice.  But sometimes:

Eye contact doesn't always stop them.

I'm with Spikey.  It's very annoying, unnecessary, and it does up the risk to us.  It's one reason why I youtube.

I have a slightly different opinion over what happens when you look over your shoulder. I often get the feeling that by looking back you acknowledge the driver's presence and thus validate, from them, an attempt to overtake.

It's almost as if, by looking back, you are giving them permission to overtake.
As a result, when I don't want to be overtaken, I do not look back.

[teethgrinder]

ed_o_brain put it better than I could in the 5th post. hold your ground, but be ready to pull out to save your skin.
I agree with MattC too. Looking behind can make all the difference. True, it doesn't always work, but it does reduce the number of occurences.
Panniers seem to make a difference too. I use Bikebins. Hard plastic tubs, which I can lock up. They have the reflective strips stuck on them. I'm convinced that I get more room with panniers.
Bright lights, front and rear. These make a big difference too. Get the brightest. I am convnced that I get far fewer people pull out in front of me with bright lights than the time before cycle lights were rubbish for seeing with.
Also, agree with Biggsy. You allready know what to expect, so maybe you allready know what you're going to do before you need to? I guess you probably do that anyway.
If I got trouble regulalrly, I'd buy a headcam and have some video showings with the police.

[teethgrinder]

Eye contact doesn't always stop them.

On one route home there is a 1mile downhill through a 30mph zone. In the dark, in winter, I usually take primary, as its easy to hit 30 going down there.

One night this car tries to overtake. Visibility (for me) is poor, and there is a car 1.5 car lengths in front of me, so there is no way I'm going to get pushed towards the gutter or have to brake to allow a car to push in. As the overtaking car tried to pass, I drifted out a bit. It came alongside me, with the driver looking across at me. By now, they were actually over the white line, with oncoming traffic, and no room in front of me to pull in. They gave in and dropped back, but only just in time.
   

That's why I'm a big fan of speed cameras. They don't half prevent a lot of stupid overtakes.

[Ashaman42]

Being seen to look back is important, IMHO. Even if you don't actually see much, as it gives the impression that you are aware of your surroundings.

Also important again IMHO, is signalling thanks to drivers that hold back, or ones that you have been holding up. It shows the drivers behind that you are fully aware of what is going on around you and makes a difference to their behaviour, in my experience.

That's very good advice.  But sometimes:

Eye contact doesn't always stop them.

I'm with Spikey.  It's very annoying, unnecessary, and it does up the risk to us.  It's one reason why I youtube.

I have a slightly different opinion over what happens when you look over your shoulder. I often get the feeling that by looking back you acknowledge the driver's presence and thus validate, from them, an attempt to overtake.

It's almost as if, by looking back, you are giving them permission to overtake.
As a result, when I don't want to be overtaken, I do not look back.

And I'm pretty sure some drivers take my looking behind at them to mean I'm thinking "haha I can see you there and I'm blocking you for the fun of it!"

[Spikey]

And from this evenings comute. I was deliberately trying to keep cool and cycle safely and predictably, but despite this I encoutered two bits of overly aggressive driving.

1) In slow moving traffic. I'm in primary simply following car in front and not trying any filtering. Car behind pulls out, starts to overtake and then moves back in while braking, placing his wing mirror about a foot in front (not to side) of my right hand. I had to jink left around it and nearly put my foot into his bumper in order to maintain my position. The low speed meant that this wasn't that dangerous but still a pointlessly aggressive attempt to push past.

2) A couple of hundred yards later, immediatly after a set of traffic lights, uphill road with a nice wide single lane. Being near the back of queue before the traffic lights means I've now got pleanty of space behind me. A little way ahead a bus stops at a bus stop, meaning that I'll have to pull out and past.  There iss a little over a cars width of space on the outside of the bus so pleanty of room to pass, but enough for both me and another car to overtake together. So I look behind (pleanty of space), signal, look again (still pleanty of space), start to move gradually out, look again (still pleanty of space) finish moving out to occupy primary in remaining space, continue to pass bus. I'm about level with the driver when a car approaching from behind leans on is horn. This is followed a couple of secconds later by some verbal abuse when I pull back left allowing the car past. So yet more unneceasrily aggressive driving.

[Karla]

I would be shocked to learn that it's common for cyclists to get hit in any part of the UK.  And hopefully Mr Bunbury is indeed just unlucky to have more than one hit in ~15 years.

With respect, isolated stories from individuals don't mean much (mine included).

That's just the hits from overtakers, I haven't yet mentioned the time someone rammed me from in front and sent me to hospital for two months!  

I agree that nobody's anecdotes count for much, and that was really my point.  It's all very well to say that you've ridden defensively all your life and never been hit, but the problem is that none of the dead cyclists can speak up against you.  If people are going to be stupid or not pay attention, they'll get you whether or not you're using good technique.  The incident I mentioned just now is a case in point: the weather was perfect, we were the only two things on the road and there were "cycle event" signs stuck on various walls, but that didn't stop the guy from hitting me while turning right without looking.