Author Topic: Short notice DIY by GPS and 'virtual' brevet cards.  (Read 15822 times)

Short notice DIY by GPS and 'virtual' brevet cards.
« on: January 01, 2011, 11:52:04 pm »
Just a couple questions regarding the above, apologies if they've been answered before but my (admittedly brief) search didn't answer everything.

Firstly am I right in my understanding that one can enter a gps-diy pretty much up to the point of riding it by emailing an entry form but in that case one can't expect confirmation from the organiser regarding whether the proposed route is up to distance?

If this is the case and I set off on a short notice ride that turned out to be underdistance (for example, due to me and the organiser using different software for our measuring) would I 'lose' the virtual brevet card or as the ride was invalid would it not count as having needed a card in the first place?

Obviously in reality if I were to enter a ride short notice I'd imagine I'd plan a route with a certain degree of overdistance as a buffer against different software versions but was just something I was pondering.

On a similar note is a virtual brevet card 'used' in entering a ride or finishing it, would I lose a card if I had to pack halfway round a ride?

I only ask because I have a paper perm (non-gps) card that I'd probably collect loose receipts for and if I ran out of time just not send off for nonvalidation, is this legit and could I do the same thing with a virtual card?
Miles cycled 2014 = 3551.5 (Target 7300 :()
Miles cycled 2013 = 6141.4
Miles cycled 2012 = 4038.1

Manotea

  • Where there is doubt...
Re: Short notice DIY by GPS and 'virtual' brevet cards.
« Reply #1 on: January 02, 2011, 12:09:38 am »
Based on conversation with An Organiser Of This Parish....

Firstly am I right in my understanding that one can enter a gps-diy pretty much up to the point of riding it by emailing an entry form but in that case one can't expect confirmation from the organiser regarding whether the proposed route is up to distance?

... Yes

If this is the case and I set off on a short notice ride that turned out to be underdistance (for example, due to me and the organiser using different software for our measuring) would I 'lose' the virtual brevet card or as the ride was invalid would it not count as having needed a card in the first place?

Obviously in reality if I were to enter a ride short notice I'd imagine I'd plan a route with a certain degree of overdistance as a buffer against different software versions but was just something I was pondering.

On a similar note is a virtual brevet card 'used' in entering a ride or finishing it, would I lose a card if I had to pack halfway round a ride?


... The Virtual Brevet is 'consumed' when the ride is validated. If the ride is not validated for any reason then the Virtual Brevet to be (re)used.

... An area of confusion is that as of AGM2010 Viirtual Brevets no longer exist, you've just bought a number of 'rides to be validated' however there does not appear to be a consistent method for tracking these by Org/Rider.  
 
I only ask because I have a paper perm (non-gps) card that I'd probably collect loose receipts for and if I ran out of time just not send off for nonvalidation, is this legit and could I do the same thing with a virtual card?

... Yes and Yes (as noted above).


Re: Short notice DIY by GPS and 'virtual' brevet cards.
« Reply #2 on: January 02, 2011, 09:19:59 am »
It might be considered bad form to take up an organiser's time checking an under-distance route.  Best to check it yourself properly first, I'd say.

RichForrest

  • T'is I, Silverback.
Re: Short notice DIY by GPS and 'virtual' brevet cards.
« Reply #3 on: January 02, 2011, 09:26:42 am »
Just a couple questions regarding the above, apologies if they've been answered before but my (admittedly brief) search didn't answer everything.

Firstly am I right in my understanding that one can enter a gps-diy pretty much up to the point of riding it by emailing an entry form but in that case one can't expect confirmation from the organiser regarding whether the proposed route is up to distance?

If this is the case and I set off on a short notice ride that turned out to be underdistance (for example, due to me and the organiser using different software for our measuring) would I 'lose' the virtual brevet card or as the ride was invalid would it not count as having needed a card in the first place?

Obviously in reality if I were to enter a ride short notice I'd imagine I'd plan a route with a certain degree of overdistance as a buffer against different software versions but was just something I was pondering.

On a similar note is a virtual brevet card 'used' in entering a ride or finishing it, would I lose a card if I had to pack halfway round a ride?

I only ask because I have a paper perm (non-gps) card that I'd probably collect loose receipts for and if I ran out of time just not send off for nonvalidation, is this legit and could I do the same thing with a virtual card?

If the ride is under distance it will not be validated, if entering just before you leave make sure you have a few KM over to allow for this.
You can enter online and use receipts, online entry is not just for GPS. You can use old cards and enter online, just state on the entry you are using an old card.

Just like any ride, if you start the card (virtual or otherwise) is for that ride and cannot be used again. Yes you would loose it, you can't keep trying on different days until you complete it. That's why you should notify the org' before you set off.

Rich


frankly frankie

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Re: Short notice DIY by GPS and 'virtual' brevet cards.
« Reply #4 on: January 02, 2011, 09:46:44 am »
... I have a paper perm (non-gps) card that I'd probably collect loose receipts for and if I ran out of time just not send off for nonvalidation, is this legit ... ?

That's a bit like embarking on a train journey without a ticket in the hope of slipping through at the other end.
It's not dark yet but it's getting there.

Martin

Re: Short notice DIY by GPS and 'virtual' brevet cards.
« Reply #5 on: January 02, 2011, 10:17:58 am »
what the others said; Not speaking for the other DIY orgs but I only take a ride to be ridden and the "credit" used up when the gpx is submitted (but if the AUK line is that each ride entered costs the same fee even if not finished I'll fall in with that) FWIW I've never actually had an entry that wasn't ridden in the end; AIUI the fee accounts for the entry,any small tweaks (within reason) to bring it up to scratch and final validation. Obviously the longer notice the better but if you have a pre-agreed or bombproof (by Autoroute or viamichelin) route you can send the entry in right up until you set off.

I do have one customer who keeps his electronic entry forms as Word docs and sends these instead, as this enables the controls on a regular route to be saved rather than typed in every time.

Manotea

  • Where there is doubt...
Re: Short notice DIY by GPS and 'virtual' brevet cards.
« Reply #6 on: January 02, 2011, 11:36:20 am »
Heigh Ho, Looks like we're in for Round Two of the ride dates for permanent and DIY which in traditional fashion concluded not a lot except that it depends on the Org concerned.

The issues raised were (1) the handling of last minute entries for DIY perms, (2)  The need to notify orgs of the date of riding, (3) reusing Brevets after an abandon for whatever reason.

Item 1, the handling of last minute entries for DIY perms is trivial. If you submit an entry for a DIY perm at the last minute and the Org decides that its under distance then the ride will not be validated (actually this takes us to the other open can of worms regarding how are routes measured but we'll put that aside for now). As is, the Orgs Decision Is Final.

So this leaves Items 2 & 3.

Let's pause for a moment to consider what a member is getting when they buy a Perm entry and what are the costs/efforts to AUK?

a) A route sheet / route approval

Prepping a route sheet is a one off exercise though it has to be maintained. Nominally DIY routes are checked / approved prior to the ride but in many cases this will not be necessary (no scope for this for late entries, no need for repeat rides, regular DIYers may submit reports from planning tools, etc.).

The point is route approval is a one off exercise; there are no repeat costs/efforts.

b) Ride validation

Again, a one-off exercise; no repeat costs

c) Insurance

It's perfectly reasonable and to be expected that if I wish to be covered by AUK insurance then AUK should be informed in advance of when I am riding.

As an aside, the online application process requires a date to be entered which raises the question of how best to progress an application when you are not sure when you want to ride. The current situation rather encourages late entries, ISTM, not what was intended. Ideally you'd have the event all tee'd up ready to go, possibly with a field completed by the Org to confirm the route has been appoved, and put the date in when known. The rider should also have the option of changing the date.

Anyway, leaving aside the question of whether I should have the option of riding without being covered by AUK insurance (is it at all relevant to Perms?) my AUK membership pays for my insurance on an annual basis so there are no additional costs to AUK.

d) The challenge is for the rider to complete a given route on a given day. In the case of a Perm, the rider gets to chose the day. If the rider wants to change the day, ISTM that's the rider's perogative. Of course, if the rider decides he/she simply CNBA because it's cold/wet/'got lucky' the night before then he/she deserves to be scorned by all (unless of course, he/she got lucky the night before...).

So where does this leave us? Seems reasonable to me that for insurance purposes riders should inform orgs when they are riding (though it would seem simpler/preferable if  they the the option of not so doing at the cost of riding uninsured) and AUK Members should be able to 'reuse' Perm Brevets/Virtual Brevets (or whatever thety are called now) after a DNS/DNF.

FTR. I have a Denmead 600 Perm brevet currently sporting about 1000km worth of coffee stains. It's become an old friend which I will be glad to wave goodbye to one day.

Re: Short notice DIY by GPS and 'virtual' brevet cards.
« Reply #7 on: January 02, 2011, 12:06:14 pm »
Thanks for the replies everyone.

It might be considered bad form to take up an organiser's time checking an under-distance route.  Best to check it yourself properly first, I'd say.

Obviously I wouldn't want to waste an organiser's time so any late notice entries would be submitted overdistance.

Was just wondering in the case of different software not just picking slightly different routing which would give a similar distance but if different roads were present/not present could give a fairly large difference in some cases I'd imagine.

Will try and give decent notice to avoid problems but at least I can do short notice if needs be, quite useful as not always sure when I'll actually be able to get out of the house for several hours at a time.

... I have a paper perm (non-gps) card that I'd probably collect loose receipts for and if I ran out of time just not send off for nonvalidation, is this legit ... ?

That's a bit like embarking on a train journey without a ticket in the hope of slipping through at the other end.

I can sort of see your point here, I wasn't intending to be cheeky. I just thought I'd read somewhere that this was accepted practise. But if I've not sent it off for validation then I've not really given the organiser any extra work?
Miles cycled 2014 = 3551.5 (Target 7300 :()
Miles cycled 2013 = 6141.4
Miles cycled 2012 = 4038.1

fboab

  • It's a fecking serious business, riding a bike
Re: Short notice DIY by GPS and 'virtual' brevet cards.
« Reply #8 on: January 02, 2011, 12:44:23 pm »
With Danial if I entered a ride then DNF/DNS he would say 'it's fine to re-use the card'.
With Rich I am still working through the last of the batch of cards I bought from Danial. I've entered one I haven't completed successfully, should I be scrapping a card each time I start and get snowed off?
TSS is not Total Sex Score, Chris!

Martin

Re: Short notice DIY by GPS and 'virtual' brevet cards.
« Reply #9 on: January 02, 2011, 12:51:17 pm »
I don't have any problem with a rider emailing me a list of controls (within reason) for checking before they submit an entry. Although they can save both our time if they pre-check the route on viamichelin (which now allows more than 4 controls, and can be split into 2 parts if more are required) or Autoroute if they have it (any version, if my version says it's shorter than theirs I'll take their distance as long as an avoiding road hasn't suddenly appeared)

the last week has been very busy with DIY's in my patch, many at very short notice, but given it was the only window for a RRTY in a few weeks it's inderstandable.

I'm also working my way through a large number of cards that were sold though my predecessor.

AndyH

Re: Short notice DIY by GPS and 'virtual' brevet cards.
« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2011, 12:53:12 pm »
With Danial if I entered a ride then DNF/DNS he would say 'it's fine to re-use the card'.
With Rich I am still working through the last of the batch of cards I bought from Danial. I've entered one I haven't completed successfully, should I be scrapping a card each time I start and get snowed off?

I've been wondering about this one. I was under the impression that a DNF meant that you "lost" the card. Pretty much as if you DNFd a calendar event. A DNS is slightly different I would have thought, as long as you let the org know.

Billy Weir

Re: Short notice DIY by GPS and 'virtual' brevet cards.
« Reply #11 on: January 02, 2011, 01:35:28 pm »
With Danial if I entered a ride then DNF/DNS he would say 'it's fine to re-use the card'.
With Rich I am still working through the last of the batch of cards I bought from Danial. I've entered one I haven't completed successfully, should I be scrapping a card each time I start and get snowed off?

I've been wondering about this one. I was under the impression that a DNF meant that you "lost" the card. Pretty much as if you DNFd a calendar event. A DNS is slightly different I would have thought, as long as you let the org know.

Grey area, AIUI.  Strictly speaking, in either case you didn't do the event you entered and should submit a new entry.  Hovewer, in reality, organisers allow one to reuse the entry/card.  But I would tell them if I was changing my ride date (there was a "debate" on the forum about notifying perm organisers in the last couple of months of 2010).  I've yet to encounter an perms event/organiser where this approach is met with refusal, regardless of DNF or DNS.  Albeit in a couple of cases, the organiser has asked for a new entry form (typically when the "restart" date falls into a new audax season) but not a new entry fee.

Note the above applies to an AUK member - I'm not sure what the position would be if you were a non-member who purchased temporary membership, for example.

RichForrest

  • T'is I, Silverback.
Re: Short notice DIY by GPS and 'virtual' brevet cards.
« Reply #12 on: January 02, 2011, 01:44:03 pm »
I do what I did when I rode rides through Danial or Martin. I'd submit a route before I rode it without a date and email as I was about to leave stating the ride I was going to do. This solves the DNS issue.
If I DNF the ride I'd tell them and loose that card. The same as if was on a calendar event and DNF'd I wouldn't go to the organiser and say I wasn't up to it can I ride it again next week?

Rich

frankly frankie

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Re: Short notice DIY by GPS and 'virtual' brevet cards.
« Reply #13 on: January 02, 2011, 01:45:23 pm »
Let's pause for a moment to consider what a member is getting when they buy a Perm entry and what are the costs/efforts to AUK?
and
Quote
So where does this leave us? Seems reasonable to me that for insurance purposes riders should inform orgs when they are riding (though it would seem simpler/preferable if  they the the option of not so doing at the cost of riding uninsured) and AUK Members should be able to 'reuse' Perm Brevets/Virtual Brevets (or whatever thety are called now) after a DNS/DNF.

Good post - but I think it's a mistake, and one which the AUK committee makes too, to think of AUK's services being provided 'at cost'.  It's a reasonable assumption, as AUK is a not-for-profit organisation, but that's not how such organisations work - they have all sorts of unquantifiable costs and so, to maintain an even balance sheet, have to recoup these by making a profit on items that are quantifiable.  Such as brevet cards and event validations.

So re-use of either, in this sort of conservationist way, is essentially starving AUK of income.  I know it all seems to be on a micro level, but that's the only level on which AUK's funding works.
(I won't even mention despicable event Orgs who photocopy extra cards rather than buy them through AUK.)

I don't really think insurance is the main issue here, after all 50% of entrants are already insured in other ways anyway.

A ride under AUK's conditions is (by definition, in the regs) an 'Event'.  So it should be a 'use it or lose it' thing.  IMO every single ride should be dated, and once that date has passed the 'event' is over. OK I don't object to a Perm entrant postponing to a later date, that seems a reasonable leeway to me.

To use the railway analogy again - you buy a ticket and it has a date of expiry (often 'today') - if your plans change and you don't use it, too bad.  Nobody has any difficulty with that concept.  The rail companies can exploit this by effectively double-booking their trains to keep them full - and still have difficulty making money.  AUK works (or should do) in a similar way.
It's not dark yet but it's getting there.

Martin

Re: Short notice DIY by GPS and 'virtual' brevet cards.
« Reply #14 on: January 02, 2011, 02:00:43 pm »
but if we are going to have a level playing field the same has to apply to regular perms; which as we all know you can pre-enter and then get receipts on the day you ride. Most Perm orgs are never going to know if you DNF on the day.

RichForrest

  • T'is I, Silverback.
Re: Short notice DIY by GPS and 'virtual' brevet cards.
« Reply #15 on: January 02, 2011, 02:06:10 pm »
If I was going to ride a Perm (I have a card here for one) I would notify the org' before I left the same as I would for a diy one.
It only takes me a second to send an email saying I'm off out on xxx ride.

Rich

Manotea

  • Where there is doubt...
Re: Short notice DIY by GPS and 'virtual' brevet cards.
« Reply #16 on: January 02, 2011, 03:55:39 pm »

Good post - but I think it's a mistake, and one which the AUK committee makes too, to think of AUK's services being provided 'at cost'.  It's a reasonable assumption, as AUK is a not-for-profit organisation, but that's not how such organisations work - they have all sorts of unquantifiable costs and so, to maintain an even balance sheet, have to recoup these by making a profit on items that are quantifiable.  Such as brevet cards and event validations.

So re-use of either, in this sort of conservationist way, is essentially starving AUK of income.
...
A ride under AUK's conditions is (by definition, in the regs) an 'Event'.  So it should be a 'use it or lose it' thing.  IMO every single ride should be dated, and once that date has passed the 'event' is over. OK I don't object to a Perm entrant postponing to a later date, that seems a reasonable leeway to me.

Whilst I'm sympathetic to your concerns regarding AUK's coffers it's a red herring because AUK's income is a small fraction of the entrance fee, and any 'reusing' of Perm Brevet's is the exception not the rule.

As for being happy with the pricing of train journeys, AFAIAC its a monopolistic scam which actually puts people off using the trains.

Whilst perms and calendars are different forms of 'event' for regulatory purposes they are hardly comparable.

Its not about the money, its about the unnecessary hassle of re-entering an event and the desire to complete a job once started.

RichForrest

  • T'is I, Silverback.
Re: Short notice DIY by GPS and 'virtual' brevet cards.
« Reply #17 on: January 02, 2011, 04:24:02 pm »
How can they be not comparable, they are both rides over the same distance, just entered a different way.
What if I didn't complete a calendar ride, could I ride it again for free next year without the hassle of re-entering it?
I've paid entry for a ride, just not finished the job

frankly frankie

  • I kid you not
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Re: Short notice DIY by GPS and 'virtual' brevet cards.
« Reply #18 on: January 02, 2011, 04:32:40 pm »
I do agree it's not really about the money - though it occurs to me that if entry fees were £10 instead of £3 then Orgs would have more incentive to see that the thing's done right as well as less excuse for short-changing AUK.

But it's not the money - it's about setting an objective and succeeding (or not) - something which unfortunately is not sufficiently spelled out in AUK's rules.
It's not dark yet but it's getting there.

Manotea

  • Where there is doubt...
Re: Short notice DIY by GPS and 'virtual' brevet cards.
« Reply #19 on: January 02, 2011, 04:45:23 pm »
How can they be not comparable, they are both rides over the same distance, just entered a different way.

As always, it depends on your point of view...

A calendar 'event' is exactly that, an occaision of high pomp and cermony, published in the AUK calendar by an organiser who has likely invested considerable time and effort in arranging route and accomodation in the hope and expectation of attracting a bevy of appreciative AUKs eager to participate in jolly japes and adventures.

Perm 'events' mostly consist of lonely sad types riding their bikes when and wheresoever they choose and looking to justify it by claiming some sort of official record of their 'acheivement'. This chap is a particularly wretched example.

What if I didn't complete a calendar ride, could I ride it again for free next year without the hassle of re-entering it?

No, because a calendar event has a pre-ordained schedule, a start, a middle and an end. You are either there or you aren't.

A perm can happen any time. All the matters is that the route is completed within the time limit.

Re: Short notice DIY by GPS and 'virtual' brevet cards.
« Reply #20 on: January 02, 2011, 04:51:51 pm »
If I was going to ride a Perm (I have a card here for one) I would notify the org' before I left the same as I would for a diy one.
It only takes me a second to send an email saying I'm off out on xxx ride.

Rich


But what would you do if the perm organiser only used snail mail?

Re: Short notice DIY by GPS and 'virtual' brevet cards.
« Reply #21 on: January 02, 2011, 04:59:03 pm »
I can see both sides of the argument really, certainly not trying to rip anyone off. Was more a case of looking for clarification really.

Intending to use ViaMichelin for routeplanning so with any luck I'll have my distances right.
Miles cycled 2014 = 3551.5 (Target 7300 :()
Miles cycled 2013 = 6141.4
Miles cycled 2012 = 4038.1

Martin

Re: Short notice DIY by GPS and 'virtual' brevet cards.
« Reply #22 on: January 02, 2011, 05:15:04 pm »
If I was going to ride a Perm (I have a card here for one) I would notify the org' before I left the same as I would for a diy one.
It only takes me a second to send an email saying I'm off out on xxx ride.

Rich


But what would you do if the perm organiser only used snail mail?

perhaps an opportunity for expanding online entry to perm events much like the DIY system? (I also accept paper based DIY entries using the online system even though they are intended for GPS; the wording is identical to that on the paper form)

Like many orgs I also re-use the (proper AUK and paid for original) DNS cards from my calendar events by re-sticking in next year's innards; is this frowned upon too? ATM AUK validation is paid for at the time of validation; should we be moving towards payment at entry?

RichForrest

  • T'is I, Silverback.
Re: Short notice DIY by GPS and 'virtual' brevet cards.
« Reply #23 on: January 02, 2011, 05:19:22 pm »
If I was going to ride a Perm (I have a card here for one) I would notify the org' before I left the same as I would for a diy one.
It only takes me a second to send an email saying I'm off out on xxx ride.

Rich


But what would you do if the perm organiser only used snail mail?

Enter another ride  ;D

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Short notice DIY by GPS and 'virtual' brevet cards.
« Reply #24 on: January 02, 2011, 05:24:51 pm »
Reusing an entry to a permanent in the event of a DNF is at odds with every similar organisation worldwide. AUK already provides much more freedom regarding perms than ACP, RUSA and similar organisations. Have a look at RUSA: FAQ
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