Author Topic: Hi-viz (Read 19270 times)

giropaul · « **on:** 04 January, 2011, 04:53:11 pm »

Now usually I go out on the bike in kit that is typically from some little known Belgian kermesse team - either one I've had some association with or, more likely, one I wish I'd had some association with.

Due to the cold and damp I've had a couple of brief rides lately with a hi-viz yellow Gamex top on - for warmth rather than visibility.

I do think, though, that I've had quite a lot more respect from cars and trucks than usual.

Do others find the same? Is it because I'm more visible, or is there something more subtle about us being conditioned to see high-viz as "official" or something? What do you think?

Hot Flatus · « **Reply #1 on:** 04 January, 2011, 04:59:49 pm »

It's because car drivers will be slowing down to have a closer look at the fool who is conditioning other road users not to be fully observant and and only look out for hi-viz

border-rider · « **Reply #2 on:** 04 January, 2011, 05:07:06 pm »

I don't normally wear hi-viz but on Thursday it was foggy as hell at home so I put on an Audax UK fluoro vest.

I left it on all day because it was cold, for my ride with Tewdric, even though it wasn't very foggy at all the rest of the day. There was only one incident of a car passing too close all day, and it happened when we were singled out and Tewdric was a few metres in front of me (no fog, good visibility); a car passed me at a decent distance and then cut in on him quite hard.

"Teaching him a lesson" ?

Would the driver have passed us both too close, or neither, if we'd been dressed similarly ?

Wendy · « **Reply #3 on:** 04 January, 2011, 07:14:03 pm »

Not sure that's significant enough to show any effect. I'm quite a hiviz sceptic, I don't think it has 1/100th the effect of modern super bright lights or road positioning.

Kim · « **Reply #4 on:** 04 January, 2011, 07:29:22 pm »

I'm largely unconvinced by the merits of routinely wearing hi-vis as a cyclist. While it undoubtedly improves your visibility in some circumstances, very few of those seem to be where you're likely to be at risk from another vehicle - typically, it makes you more visible from further away.

I do own the ubiquitous bright yellow Altura jacket, mainly because it was half price in a sale. Given that I only usually wear the thing when it's really pissing it down, foggy, or very cold, it seems likely that the hi-vis colour may not be utterly pointless. It certainly seemed like a good idea while riding in proper dense fog last week.

It is, of course, no substitute for _{FRIKKIN' LASERS} in terms of visibility.

I've never noticed a significant change in driver behaviour from wearing hi-vis, other than when I've managed to obscure my long hair (this does seem to make a difference, in shouted abuse if not care while overtaking) with it. Certainly nothing like riding a recumbent, tandem or carrying a comedy item on the rear rack, which do tend to result in safer overtakes etc.

Clandy · « **Reply #5 on:** 04 January, 2011, 07:41:14 pm »

I used to commute by cycle wearing a hi-viz work coat, with the reflective strips etc. It got some respect from drivers, but got even even more when I stuck a 12"x3" blue patch on the back.

Tail End Charlie · « **Reply #6 on:** 04 January, 2011, 08:45:33 pm »

Like the idea, Clandy

andygates · « **Reply #7 on:** 04 January, 2011, 08:54:24 pm »

Hi-viz is especially effective in blue-grey gloom, when it really does pop. It's not completely worthless.

What annoys me is the "please don't kill me ded mister big motorist sir" grovelling that a fetish for hi-viz and blinkies imply. It's all tribal, this-is-car-space, baby in the grownup pool rubbish. Roads are shared space, sharing needs sense, sense starts with good lights and road positioning.

But on a steel-blue foggy dawn, hi-viz is useful.

clarion · « **Reply #8 on:** 04 January, 2011, 09:14:24 pm »

I have a lot of reflectives on my bike, bags & clothing. I also carry lights, which I sometimes use during the day. I don't do Hi-Viz.

Ham · « **Reply #9 on:** 05 January, 2011, 12:05:01 am »

What AndyG sed, only I don't buy the fetish idea.

I wear hi-viz because I want to improve my odds of survival, simple.

It's no guarantee, and I know I won't die if I don't wear it, but I don't know which occasion it would be that it could make a difference so I use it all the time.

Hot Flatus · « **Reply #10 on:** 05 January, 2011, 10:16:30 am »

When I'm driving I certainly prefer other road users to be highly visible, by whatever means

arabella · « **Reply #11 on:** 05 January, 2011, 10:42:16 am »

I've noticed no difference when I wear hi-viz ...

... except at the railway station when I've occasionally been mistaken for a BR (or whatever) employee in hi-viz.

In general road users are courteous and give me enough room. There are occasional twits and so and sos but I haven't noticed there being more or fewer depending on how brightly I am clad.

phil d · « **Reply #12 on:** 05 January, 2011, 11:41:36 am »

Quote from: Ham on 05 January, 2011, 12:05:01 am

What AndyG sed, only I don't buy the fetish idea.

I wear hi-viz because I want to improve my odds of survival, simple.

It's no guarantee, and I know I won't die if I don't wear it, but I don't know which occasion it would be that it could make a difference so I use it all the time.

I'm broadly in this camp. I don't wear it all the time, but certainly wear bright yellow (not necessarily "hi-viz") whenever lighting conditions are less than very good because as a driver I have observed that this makes me significantly more visible. Ural K sums it up very well. I don't much care how much "right is on my side" - being right isn't an infallible safety mechanism.

Gaz · « **Reply #13 on:** 06 January, 2011, 01:04:04 pm »

One thing to think about, is how good are the hi-viz products that are sold as cycling products.
From my experience of seeing other people wearing them. 90% of them suck!

EdinburghFixed · « **Reply #14 on:** 06 January, 2011, 01:23:21 pm »

My better half and I used to ride many miles daily on the busy A90 (the closest thing we have to an urban dual carriageway) on our way to our respective offices.

We rode year round and when it got colder, I bought a pair of identical DHB jackets from Wiggle - that is, identical except that mine was charcoal grey where hers was hi-viz yellow.

She had a lot more trouble with close overtakes and other dangerous driving antics than I did.

Of course, there are too many variables to make this anything other than anecdote. I ride slightly faster than she does, probably don't ride the same distance from the kerb (although she's pretty good, not a gutter crawler by any means) etc. etc.

I also drive enough around town to know that in certain conditions a hi-viz rider is considerably more contrasty than a normal looking one.

But, I'm far from convinced that the troubles we have are caused by drivers looking but not being able to see cyclists (i.e. because they didn't have hi-viz on) and that it's more like an "inappropriate response" problem that we're on the sharp end of. If you accept that drivers are basically going to see you whatever you wear, it's not obvious that they will behave better towards the rider in the fluoro suit than the one without - perhaps they even give the hi-viz rider less margin because they seem superficially safer?

Here's another anecdotal point to support this theory - the summer before last I deviated badly from accepted cycling norms and added quite a low recumbent to the fleet of ordinary bikes that fill our flat. I don't wear any sort of hi-viz on it and I've accumulated a few thousand miles now through central Edinburgh, out to Fife and on varied brevets. On the face of it the hi-viz theory would seem to suggest that I should be suffering from all sorts of trouble, but in fact I never have any issues being seen and have quite a lot of difficulties with inadvertant traffic jamming (i.e. drivers could pass and would if I was on the other bike, but choose not to).

Crepello · « **Reply #15 on:** 06 January, 2011, 02:09:40 pm »

Quote from: Wendy on 04 January, 2011, 07:14:03 pm

Not sure that's significant enough to show any effect. I'm quite a hiviz sceptic, I don't think it has 1/100th the effect of modern super bright lights or road positioning.

I'm niether anti or pro vest, but a cager went to execute a right hand turn onto my road, crossing my path and narrowly missinging me. It was dark, but quiet. I was not wearing hi-viz, but I was in primary position and had a B&M Cyo. Thing is that a parked car partially obscured me, so hi-viz may have made my top half more visable.

EdinburghFixed · « **Reply #16 on:** 06 January, 2011, 02:58:23 pm »

It's true, it may have.

And because you never know whether a light near the driver would have been directly pointing at your retro-reflectives, the logical step would be to fit a head-mounted light (helmet or head-torch style) to guard against that.

Of course, a driver might miss your head-torch where they wouldn't have missed a 1200L deathstar ray, so the next step is to fit such a weapon to your head to guard against that.

And so on. Where each of us draws the line is different (and that would be fine if it wasn't for the tendency to find extra and extra measures creeping into de-facto "law" through insurance & court judgements and the like). For example, I recently read of a cyclist who was hit head-on while wearing hi-viz and having quite decent lights - it was decided not to prosecute with the note "inadequately lit"...

I can only speak for myself but as a regular & routine driver in all weathers, I have no problem checking that (unlit) pedestrians aren't crossing the road I'm about to dive down, so it beggars belief that someone lit up in any way should exonorate the dangerous drivers amongst us.

Wendy · « **Reply #17 on:** 06 January, 2011, 03:03:21 pm »

Quote from: Crepello on 06 January, 2011, 02:09:40 pm

Quote from: Wendy on 04 January, 2011, 07:14:03 pm
Not sure that's significant enough to show any effect. I'm quite a hiviz sceptic, I don't think it has 1/100th the effect of modern super bright lights or road positioning.
I'm niether anti or pro vest, but a cager went to execute a right hand turn onto my road, crossing my path and narrowly missinging me. It was dark, but quiet. I was not wearing hi-viz, but I was in primary position and had a B&M Cyo. Thing is that a parked car partially obscured me, so hi-viz may have made my top half more visable.

Could you post a google link to the incident location, and description of locations and directions?

Perhaps hiviz would have helped, but I had thought that little other than the head of an upright cyclist pokes above normal cars.

PhilO · « **Reply #18 on:** 06 January, 2011, 03:06:30 pm »

Quote from: EdinburghFixed on 06 January, 2011, 01:23:21 pm

But, I'm far from convinced that the troubles we have are caused by drivers looking but not being able to see cyclists (i.e. because they didn't have hi-viz on) and that it's more like an "inappropriate response" problem that we're on the sharp end of. If you accept that drivers are basically going to see you whatever you wear, it's not obvious that they will behave better towards the rider in the fluoro suit than the one without - perhaps they even give the hi-viz rider less margin because they seem superficially safer?

This accords with my experience. Subjectively, I seem to get more close passes when dressed in bright yellow than, say, blue. I still usually wear yellow, mind - I don't want to give an inattentive driver the 'I didn't see him because he wasn't dressed brightly' excuse!

Hot Flatus · « **Reply #19 on:** 06 January, 2011, 03:06:52 pm »

Of course it depends what you mean by hi-viz. Fluo is useless in the dark, whereas on unlit roads reflectives, particularly if they are moving, can be very effective. Under streetlights, neither work well, and of course you dynamo light is not a blinky one.

The whole point is to catch the motorists' eyes. Static lights blend into traffic following you.

Wendy · « **Reply #20 on:** 06 January, 2011, 03:12:43 pm »

AFAIK hiviz is the combo of both fluo and reflectives. I expect your doubts on hiviz are why you have a dinotte 400L and are cursed of audax, is that right Ural?

Spikey · « **Reply #21 on:** 06 January, 2011, 03:38:12 pm »

I think that there may be an inverse correlation between visibility and overtaking distance.
If I'm driving at night and see a stealth cyclist (yes they are visible), then I'll usually be extra careful when near them, knowing that they might be much harder to see in side or rear view mirrors. I'm also aware that a stealth cyclist is obviously much less concearned for their safety than a well lit high viz cyclist, thus as a driver I will compensate a bit by exerciseing even greater care. Hence, I'll probably leave even more room. It dosn't seam unreasonable that some less careful drivers may take greater rsiks around more visible cyclists.
As a cyclist I think I get more very close passes in good visibility (daylight) than in dark or poor viz conditions.

In essence, while wearing high viz may make a cyclist easier to spot from a distance, it might make nearby drivers who have seen you less careful or considerate.

EdinburghFixed · « **Reply #22 on:** 06 January, 2011, 03:49:37 pm »

Quote from: Spikey on 06 January, 2011, 03:38:12 pm

As a cyclist I think I get more very close passes in good visibility (daylight) than in dark or poor viz conditions.

For me, on an ordinary bike, this is definitely true. I could count on the fingers of one hand the total number of vaguely uncomfortable passes I got at night on the open road sections of my old commute, compared with the fingers of one hand for any individual daylight commute.

Kim · « **Reply #23 on:** 06 January, 2011, 04:20:04 pm »

I was under the impression that ordinary bikes got you loadsa room in pretty much all conditions

LEE · « **Reply #24 on:** 06 January, 2011, 04:39:49 pm »

I think I should differentiate between Hi-Viz (flouro yellow/green) and Scotchlite reflective.

Most of my cycling is on dark country lanes, lots of hedgerows and sharp bends.

I wear a Hi-Viz vest because it has large Scotchlite bands on it not because it is Flouro Yellow.

My own experience of driving round here at night is that Scotchlite, in headlights, is brighter than any rear LED light. It's more noticeable at any distance amd any angle. Not so the Flouro Yellow which is only really bright in daylight but then again, so are my Red and Blue tops.

LED lights are fine if they are angled correctly, which means almost horizontal at saddle height, but many aren't which renders them of little use.

I don't see the point of Hi Viz during the day and would wear the same vest if it were blue or red. It's just a very cheap way of getting a lot of Scotchlite on me.

I just know that, on dark and wet nights, I breathe a sigh of relief when I don my Scotchlite (My experience is that drivers take greater care when passing me at night than during the day, when they fly along the lanes).

Anecdotal: When I wear my Blue jacket under a Hi Viz I tend to get oncoming cars pulling over onto the grass verge to let me pass. I have always assumed they see Hi-Viz + Blue and think "It's a Police Motorbike coming towards me"

Author Topic: Hi-viz (Read 19270 times)

border-rider

Clandy

Tail End Charlie

Spikey

LEE