London helmet cam users: BBC wants you at Waterloo tomorrow morning

[corshamjim]

So the driver carries on, oblivious that he just came close to knocking someone down, and later in the day does the same thing again and kills someone...

Yes, but hey. let's hope they're wearing a headcam so we can see it on youtube!

[Pancho]

I was a bit disquieted by some aspects of this piece.

There was a personal injury lawyer, who welcomed helmet cameras, he said something along the lines of cyclists "not having the backup of big insurance companies".

Funny - 'cos that very same lawyer was the lawyer paid for by my insurance company when I was hit by a woman armed with a Clio.

[rower40]

The cyclist didn't rise to it at all.

But he whacked the side of the van with his fist!

If he'd braked a bit earlier, let white van man get on with whatever he was going to do (turn left) and then carried on, the whole later incident would never have happened

Looking at a few other of his videos, I see many situations I recognise from my years on the road. Yes, I can get annoyed at the time but I never feel the need to remonstrate with a driver or hit the side of a van. I just slow down, let the idiot driver get on with what they're doing and then carry on with my journey.

If you'd been in a car, and a van had done that move on you, I'm pretty sure you'd have used the horn to "make the other road user aware of your presence."  I would have.  Making the side-panel of a van resonate with manual contact is for the same purpose.

[PeteB99]

... I do own a cycle helmet camera but I use it for skiing."

Surely it's a skiing helmet camera then?

You can attach them to a head band so not strictly a 'helmet' cam

[teethgrinder]

The cyclist didn't rise to it at all.

But he whacked the side of the van with his fist!

If he'd braked a bit earlier, let white van man get on with whatever he was going to do (turn left) and then carried on, the whole later incident would never have happened

Looking at a few other of his videos, I see many situations I recognise from my years on the road. Yes, I can get annoyed at the time but I never feel the need to remonstrate with a driver or hit the side of a van. I just slow down, let the idiot driver get on with what they're doing and then carry on with my journey.

If you'd been in a car, and a van had done that move on you, I'm pretty sure you'd have used the horn to "make the other road user aware of your presence."  I would have.  Making the side-panel of a van resonate with manual contact is for the same purpose.

I wouldn't count on it. I see motorist victims of other motorists being an arse and it's not uncommon for them to just shrug it off.

I think hat the difference is that Oranj is using his experience to gain a safe and peacefull ride, whereas the camera weilding warrior, allthough is aiming for the same thing, is also aiming to educate others so that everyone has a safe and peacefull journey without the need of years of experience.
I sort of sit in between. If someone is being an arse I sometimes will give a shout. It is best to have an escape plan and not to do it in anger. Anger makes you stupid and more vulnerable. I really wouldn't go hitting vehicles (unless you can guarantee that you can escape if they go after you or you can defend yourself against them), it really pisses people off.

[Kim]

If you'd been in a car, and a van had done that move on you, I'm pretty sure you'd have used the horn to "make the other road user aware of your presence."  I would have.

See, I'd be too preoccupied with the brakes and steering to think of that.  On a bike you can shout at the same time, for what that's worth.  Slapping the side of a vehicle that's passing way too close, like operating the horn, just isn't an instinctive action for me (and I've no particular desire to cultivate that instinct, it seems unlikely to increase my survival prospects) - by the time I think about it, it's too late.

[Cudzoziemiec]

Anger makes you stupid and more vulnerable. I really wouldn't go hitting vehicles (unless you can guarantee that you can escape if they go after you or you can defend yourself against them), it really pisses people off.

It does. But there is undoubtedly a cultural element in it too. I remember as an angry (stupid) teenager* hitting cars in Paris and shouting at the drivers and they just laughed at me as if "What a crazy Rosbif!" Mind you that was a long time ago. And in India every vehicle larger than a moped has so many dents that people don't seem to be bothered at all. Or maybe it's just that it's an Anglo-Saxon thing to see a vehicle as an extension of your self, your personal space, your own mobile castle.

*Actually I think I was 20.

[DrMekon]

I suspect the sight of Adam Rayner is an excellent tool for promoting active commuting. His face appears to be in the process of being eaten by his neck.

BBC News - Cyclist v motorist: A heated debate

Someone ought to give him a bike. It could save his life.

[Charlotte]

If you'd been in a car, and a van had done that move on you, I'm pretty sure you'd have used the horn to "make the other road user aware of your presence."  I would have.

See, I'd be too preoccupied with the brakes and steering to think of that.  On a bike you can shout at the same time, for what that's worth.  Slapping the side of a vehicle that's passing way too close, like operating the horn, just isn't an instinctive action for me (and I've no particular desire to cultivate that instinct, it seems unlikely to increase my survival prospects) - by the time I think about it, it's too late.

Exactly.

If a vehicle comes so close to me that I can reach out and touch it, then by definition, it is Too Fucking Close.

As far as I'm concerned, if it's scaring me and it's within my reach, I'm going to give it a slap to let its driver know just how much he's freaking me out.  No anger, no damage.  Just a very effective way of saying, "I'm here and you're scaring the shit out of me."

[Nightfly]

I was a bit disquieted by some aspects of this piece.

There was a personal injury lawyer, who welcomed helmet cameras, he said something along the lines of cyclists "not having the backup of big insurance companies".

Funny - 'cos that very same lawyer was the lawyer paid for by my insurance company when I was hit by a woman armed with a Clio.

Just to clarify the cyclist in this incident is Ben Porter. The cycling barrister QC who has been in the media recently criticisng the police and CPS for not pursuing a case against a moton who allegedly pushed him into oncoming traffic. The solicitor in the  BBC piece today on helmet cams was I believe Paul Kitson who gives advice to members of the CTC.

[Wendy]

Oranj, we know the cyclist in that video clip, and your interpretation couldn't be more wrong.  Clearly the courts didn't agree with you, since it was the driver who got punished.

[hellymedic]

Maybe I'm confused but I thought Ben Porter was a stage hand and Martin Porter a barrister BICBW..

[Wendy]

Maybe I'm confused but I thought Ben Porter was a stage hand and Martin Porter a barrister BICBW..

Correct.

[hellymedic]

I was a bit disquieted by some aspects of this piece.

There was a personal injury lawyer, who welcomed helmet cameras, he said something along the lines of cyclists "not having the backup of big insurance companies".

Funny - 'cos that very same lawyer was the lawyer paid for by my insurance company when I was hit by a woman armed with a Clio.

Just to clarify the cyclist in this incident is Ben Porter. The cycling barrister QC who has been in the media recently criticisng the police and CPS for not pursuing a case against a moton who allegedly pushed him into oncoming traffic. The solicitor in the  BBC piece today on helmet cams was I believe Paul Kitson who gives advice to members of the CTC.

Not quite. See above...

[red marley]

I don't get it. He undertook a white van that was clearly not interested in giving him any room, let himself get cut up at the next junction and then provoked the driver into giving him a whack? Is this the point of wearing a camera so we can all go around provoking other road users and then uploading it to YouTube?

Oranj and Teethgrinder  - while you may be able to ride in ways that can sometimes avoid confrontations like this (and I aspire to do so also), that does not mean that what Ben did in the circumstances was wrong. I think it is really important not to use the language of victim blaming ("let himself get cut up") in these circumstances. As Zoe Williams says in the TV clip, the odds are currently so hugely stacked in favour of motorists in incidents with cyclists, that we mustn't lose sight of who should be adapting their behaviour here.

[mAsTa RiDaH]

Oranj, we know the cyclist in that video clip, and your interpretation couldn't be more wrong.  Clearly the courts didn't agree with you, since it was the driver who got punished.

Eh? Oranj is not talking about the assault though is he? That's a completely seperate incident. He's talking about what lead it up to it and he has got a point. As soon as WVM was ahead going through the left hand turn you are never going to get ahead on the inside with parked cars ahead - because there is a van where you want to be!

Hello Mr WVM I want to be where you want to be because there are parked cars ahead and there will never be enough room for me with parked cars on the n/s and you on the o/s.

No chance Mr Cyclist - cyclists know your limits. Develop a sense of humour for the twats out on the road and develop a sense of fear for all the twats out on the road. Whilst you are at it read the road ahead, touch the brakes and let me go. Because I have 46 parcels in the back of the motor which all have to be delivered by 1632hrs. Or otherwise it ain't worth my salt going back to the depot.

[Wendy]

Oranj, we know the cyclist in that video clip, and your interpretation couldn't be more wrong.  Clearly the courts didn't agree with you, since it was the driver who got punished.

Eh? Oranj is not talking about the assault though is he? That's a completely seperate incident. He's talking about what lead it up to it and he has got a point. As soon as WVM was ahead going through the left hand turn you are never going to get ahead on the inside with parked cars ahead - because there is a van where you want to be!

Hello Mr WVM I want to be where you want to be because there are parked cars ahead and there will never be enough room for me with parked cars on the n/s and you on the o/s.

No chance Mr Cyclist - cyclists know your limits. Develop a sense of humour for the twats out on the road and develop a sense of fear for all the twats out on the road. Whilst you are at it read the road ahead, touch the brakes and let me go. Because I have 46 parcels in the back of the motor which all have to be delivered by 1632hrs. Or otherwise it ain't worth my salt going back to the depot.

No, we're talking about the whole video clip.  Do keep up at the back.

And you think you'd do better than Ben?  Lee, you're so far outclassed by the quality of Ben's riding, you don't even stand fit to judge any of it.

[mAsTa RiDaH]

I don't get it. He undertook a white van that was clearly not interested in giving him any room, let himself get cut up at the next junction and then provoked the driver into giving him a whack? Is this the point of wearing a camera so we can all go around provoking other road users and then uploading it to YouTube?

Oranj and Teethgrinder  - while you may be able to ride in ways that can sometimes avoid confrontations like this (and I aspire to do so also), that does not mean that what Ben did in the circumstances was wrong. I think it is really important not to use the language of victim blaming ("let himself get cut up") in these circumstances. As Zoe Williams says in the TV clip, the odds are currently so hugely stacked in favour of motorists in incidents with cyclists, that we mustn't lose sight of who should be adapting their behaviour here.

Ultimately no he did not do anything wrong. But the choice was there whether to let the van go or not and some people might say that it is best just to let the van go the first time that it overtook.

[mAsTa RiDaH]

Oranj, we know the cyclist in that video clip, and your interpretation couldn't be more wrong.  Clearly the courts didn't agree with you, since it was the driver who got punished.

Eh? Oranj is not talking about the assault though is he? That's a completely seperate incident. He's talking about what lead it up to it and he has got a point. As soon as WVM was ahead going through the left hand turn you are never going to get ahead on the inside with parked cars ahead - because there is a van where you want to be!

Hello Mr WVM I want to be where you want to be because there are parked cars ahead and there will never be enough room for me with parked cars on the n/s and you on the o/s.

No chance Mr Cyclist - cyclists know your limits. Develop a sense of humour for the twats out on the road and develop a sense of fear for all the twats out on the road. Whilst you are at it read the road ahead, touch the brakes and let me go. Because I have 46 parcels in the back of the motor which all have to be delivered by 1632hrs. Or otherwise it ain't worth my salt going back to the depot.

No, we're talking about the whole video clip.  Do keep up at the back.

And you think you'd do better than Ben?  Lee, you're so far outclassed by the quality of Ben's riding, you don't even stand fit to judge any of it.

I doubt it very much. Can't remember the last time I tried racing a vehicle with a MGW of 3.5t on the inside.

I think it comes down to moral developement when annoyed by other road users. Sometimes you just have to accept, embrace, breath in and move on.

[Martin]

The cyclist didn't rise to it at all.

But he whacked the side of the van with his fist!

If he'd braked a bit earlier, let white van man get on with whatever he was going to do (turn left) and then carried on, the whole later incident would never have happened

Looking at a few other of his videos, I see many situations I recognise from my years on the road. Yes, I can get annoyed at the time but I never feel the need to remonstrate with a driver or hit the side of a van. I just slow down, let the idiot driver get on with what they're doing and then carry on with my journey.

So the driver carries on, oblivious that he just came close to knocking someone down, and later in the day does the same thing again and kills someone...

or even (being a complete R sole) thinks "cyclistsl; f 'em all, here's another one; oops"

my maxim is "don't argue with tons of metal; especially when driven by fuckwits"

(gets ready to be pasted to the wall for disagreeing with the Party Line)

[Nightfly]

I don't get it. He undertook a white van that was clearly not interested in giving him any room, let himself get cut up at the next junction and then provoked the driver into giving him a whack? Is this the point of wearing a camera so we can all go around provoking other road users and then uploading it to YouTube?

Oranj and Teethgrinder  - while you may be able to ride in ways that can sometimes avoid confrontations like this (and I aspire to do so also), that does not mean that what Ben did in the circumstances was wrong. I think it is really important not to use the language of victim blaming ("let himself get cut up") in these circumstances. As Zoe Williams says in the TV clip, the odds are currently so hugely stacked in favour of motorists in incidents with cyclists, that we mustn't lose sight of who should be adapting their behaviour here.

+1. Glad you quoted her. I think she did admirably against the blob Adam Rayner. When she mentioned the beneffits of cycling - health, using cars less iirc, I was just waiting for her to use the O word - obesity. if you look carefully she is trying not to laugh as she looks directly at Rayner, well she can't do anything else he is so immense. Zoe Williams is a good spokes person for cycling being a gal she can easily counter the nasty bullying machismo that some male petrol heads seem to force on others to try to win their point.

[Asterix, the former Gaul.]

Just to clarify the cyclist in this incident is Ben Porter. The cycling barrister QC who has been in the media recently criticisng the police and CPS for not pursuing a case against a moton who allegedly pushed him into oncoming traffic. The solicitor in the  BBC piece today on helmet cams was I believe Paul Kitson who gives advice to members of the CTC.[/quote]

From Russell Jones and Walker.  The company did a fine job of obtaining compensation for me after I was downed by a careless car-user.  The culprit did a runner leaving a false address. He was never found by the police but he had insurance and the insurer had to pay out.

[phil d]

If you'd been in a car, and a van had done that move on you, I'm pretty sure you'd have used the horn to "make the other road user aware of your presence."  I would have.

See, I'd be too preoccupied with the brakes and steering to think of that.  On a bike you can shout at the same time, for what that's worth.  Slapping the side of a vehicle that's passing way too close, like operating the horn, just isn't an instinctive action for me (and I've no particular desire to cultivate that instinct, it seems unlikely to increase my survival prospects) - by the time I think about it, it's too late.

Exactly.

If a vehicle comes so close to me that I can reach out and touch it, then by definition, it is Too Fucking Close.

As far as I'm concerned, if it's scaring me and it's within my reach, I'm going to give it a slap to let its driver know just how much he's freaking me out.  No anger, no damage.  Just a very effective way of saying, "I'm here and you're scaring the shit out of me."

I'm afraid I'm going to disagree with you, C.  If the vehicle is so close that I could touch it, the very last thing I'm going to do is take a hand off my bars and thus reduce my control of my bike in a tight situation.  I would shout, though!

While I agree that a change in attitudes is needed, confrontation is not the way to achieve it.  That just causes anger, and anger is never a good starting point.  Having stated the negative, I don't have any good proposal for going forward.

I guess I'm a wimp, but I'm with Oranj, and try to avoid "competing", but if it happens work at surviving and move on.

[Charlotte]

I'm afraid I'm going to disagree with you, C.

That's cool.  Not everyone reacts the same and different riders are going to have different priorities during a stressful encounter like this.

My priorities are:

1. Not getting myself into a dangerous situation in the first place
2. Giving myself the best chance of surviving uninjured if there is a collision
3. Making sure that in the event of a near miss, the driver responsible for the incident is left under no illusion just how pissed off I am about his stupidity

If, despite being well lit, giving clear signals and riding wide, someone attempts to overtake me, leaving so little room that I’m genuinely concerned that they might hit me, I’m going to react badly.

Driving like a tosser is one thing, trying to kill me is another and the very least that they can expect is a wallop on the side of their car.  On the rare occasions I sense a vehicle approaching too close, I tend to take my offside hand off the bars anyway.  It means I can maintain the survival space off to my nearside, without being bullied into diving for the kerb, but crucially, I can make myself appear wider to the motorist and feel if they come that close.  This means I can keep my focus on the road in front of me – the last thing you need when you’re dealing with an overtaker like this is to be distracted from where you’re going and stick your front wheel in a pothole or something.

Also - I want drivers who try to kill me to know that I am angry and I’m spiky and I bite back.  Then maybe the next time they're tempted to try the same trick with another cyclist, they might think twice.

Your mileage (as they say) may vary.

[Clandy]

Also - I want drivers who try to kill me to know that I am angry and I’m spiky and I bite back.  Then maybe the next time they're tempted to try the same trick with another cyclist, they might think twice.

+1