£10 registration fee per event for organisers

[Somnolent]

Agree that cheques are an anachronism.

Mandatory acceptance Paypal for all NEW events / NEW orgs would have been sensible.... that said, I'd be against any compulsion by AUK on those very successful organisers of existing events who have so far resisted all attempts to drag them into the communication age.   As a newbie to this game I only know of El Sup, but there are no doubt others ?

Mind you I shall probably shed a nostalgic tear or two if in a few years time I am sending off the last cheque in my chequebook, with 2  C5 SAEs  

[DanialW]

Can't we find a way of "funding" the smaller events? I have to admit that one of my best ever audax was the kite  & peacocks and we were less than 10 at the start.

One of the ideas I've thought about, but never really worked on, was for Audax UK to support some of the longer events that were likely to fold due to small entry fields.

IMO though, shorter events should be allowed to live or die by their numbers or the willingness of the organiser to plan them. There are so many 100s and 200s, that supporting the smaller events would cost quite a bit of cash, risks ossifying the calendar, and could inhibit new (unsupported) organisers. Also, you can run events up to 200s as shoestrings really easily, so shouldn't attract large costs unless you want them to.

[BlackSheep]

You can already see what Audax UK's committee spend your money on. Unlike LEL 2009, Audax UK publishes its accounts. So will LEL2013. In fact, LEL's finance chap submitted our accounts to HMRC last week.

Not sure what the above is repling to. But as LEL 2013 is being run as a company in it own right, I have no interest in what LEL 2013 is doing, I wish it (and everyone connected with it) well and hope it achieves everything it set's-out to do.

At the 2009 AGM, there was considerable debate about the way AUK supported iLEL 2009 carte blanche, and the considerable ammount of AUK subscibers monies used to support the event. And whether or not it was money well spent. Obviously to those that rode it - the was money well spent. There were AUK subscibers that felt it was not well spent. I'm of the opinion that in any structure there has to be ying and yang.

[AndyH]

+1.  It's time to dump the envelope-and-stampery.

I must confess, I will miss paper route sheets turning up in the post. However, cheques are a pfaff. So yes, Paypal please.

Maybe it should be mandatory that paypal is offered as an entry option, but surely with a transition period before cheques & SAEs are abandoned altogether, 3 - 5 seasons, depending on how many still use the old fashioned method?

[Panoramix]

Can't we find a way of "funding" the smaller events? I have to admit that one of my best ever audax was the kite  & peacocks and we were less than 10 at the start.

One of the ideas I've thought about, but never really worked on, was for Audax UK to support some of the longer events that were likely to fold due to small entry fields.

IMO though, shorter events should be allowed to live or die by their numbers or the willingness of the organiser to plan them. There are so many 100s and 200s, that supporting the smaller events would cost quite a bit of cash, risks ossifying the calendar, and could inhibit new (unsupported) organisers. Also, you can run events up to 200s as shoestrings really easily, so shouldn't attract large costs unless you want them to.

When I say funding I use it in a generic sense. Say that AUK sends to the organiser 20 unmarked brevet cards, after the event the organiser sends back the used and the unused cards and has to pay only for the used one. It means no printing for small events, low risk for people to organise new events and no argument for reordering cards. Ypu put a cap on it and make the cards slightly more expensive so that people don't abuse the system, job done.

[mattc]

Maybe it should be mandatory that paypal is offered as an entry option, but surely with a transition period before cheques & SAEs are abandoned altogether, 3 - 5 seasons, depending on how many still use the old fashioned method?

Apart from liberating the space in your bureau taken up by that bulky chequebook and 10xC5 envelopes, what problem would this fix?

(Obviously if/when banks do scrap cheques, we'll need a replacement. )

[DanialW]

Not sure what the above is repling to.

It's replying to this:

But what I think most people would like an answer to is. and following the extended debate on LEL at the 2009 AGM is :- What's the resultant surplus £1500+ going to fund ? ? ? ? ?

So, if you want to know "What's the resultant surplus £1500+ going to fund ? ? ? ? ?
", then take a look at the accounts. Or, ask a committee member.

[JohnHamilton]

1. Online entry is only going to increase, and it could undoubtedly be made easier by Audax UK providing centralised facilities to make life easier for organisers. But I doubt very much that it can be mandatory. We've seen the fuss that results from trying to force organisers.

2. I see in the future that the DIY system and Events system will become blurred, providing an easy low cost alternative to organising a traditional event (Ryanair Brevets).

As an "organiser" I'll be able to propose a route (for which distance is automatically calculated - no more arguments about AR) and a date online.

As a rider I'll be able to subscribe to alerts of what's going on in my area, and elect to "enter" such an "event", paying online.

These rides will be validated either by GPS (in which case no Brevet Card is required, and I just submit my file for validation as we do for DIY GPS now); or I collect receipts as I go, and print out my own "card" to attach them to. The validation is handled by the DIY secretaries (or their equivalents) who effectively become an arm of the validation team.

The "organiser" isn't required to do anything other than propose the route and time - all the "entries" and "validation" will be handled centrally.

There'll still be a place for traditional calendar "events" with village halls, bespoke brevet cards and all the other facilities, just as people still choose to fly with BA instead of Easyjet.

[border-rider]

Apart from liberating the space in your bureau taken up by that bulky chequebook and 10xC5 envelopes, what problem would this fix?

having to have envelopes

Having to have paper in the printer, and the printer (which is in another room) switched on

Having to fix the paper jam/go to town to buy more paper/ink/etc (we don't print very much these days)

Having to have stamps (this is a major problem in the Volio Household; we really rarely use them)

Having to write the envelopes [or buy a printer that prints them, and doing the word processing]

Having to find the damn chequebook

Making sure it'll all go in the envelope such that the PO don't charge extra for it

Sticking down the envelope with sellotape because it's not sticky enough

Finding the damn sellotape

Going on an expotition to the post box, some miles away

remembering to do all this, or have its multiplicity of components in place, in time for the org to receive it (which I often fail to do)

Wondering of the Postman has been eaten by tigers again, or whether the routesheet will arrive in time

getting the routesheet in a paper form so it can't be reformatted or jigged about with

No none of it is insurmountable, but it's a hell of a lot more faff than just clicking.

[JohnHamilton]

Making sure it'll all go in the envelope such that the PO don't charge extra for it

Sticking down the envelope with sellotape because it's not sticky enough

Finding the damn sellotape

Going on an expotition to the post box, some miles away

Wondering of the Postman has been eaten by tigers again, or whether the routesheet will arrive in time

All of which the org has to do xN with the dodgy collection of SAE's they've been sent. Even with postal entry I'd still like to get rid of the 2x SAEs as an organiser.

[mattc]

I think people overstate the issues with our marvellous Royal Mail - we had 3 separate deliveries this morning, 2 of which contained bike bits!

[simonp]

My Brevet card order for my events is always left in plain view outside the front door by the postman.

[border-rider]

I think people overstate the issues with our marvellous Royal Mail - we had 3 separate deliveries this morning, 2 of which contained bike bits!

I might respectfully suggest that that depends where you live.

We often go a week without deliveries if the postie is running late, and we rarely get one more than every 2 days.  yes we chose to live here, but people do live in places other than towns.

[border-rider]

All of which the org has to do xN with the dodgy collection of SAE's they've been sent.

I can imagine.

[Billy Weir]

Following on from comments from Paul and Mark (and others).

As I've asked before, does the "pay £10 on registration and get 20 cards" mean that we can expect as proposal for an increase in brevet cards costs to 50p at the 2011 AGM?

If not, I feel the committee needs to disclose what the £3 top up is being imposed for.  If it is seeking to generate surplus to support activities (i.e. is effectively a levy) or to cover fixed costs then I cannot see why this would not be disclosed.  Indeed, I suspect there might be some sympathy.  Suggesting that individuals look into it themselves by reading the accounts or approach the committee individually is disingenuous.

Whilst no expert, without either of the above, a cynical observer might suggest that this gives the potential for the committee to abuse the regulation that any increase in brevet card fees be agreed at an AGM.

[simonp]

I deleted my paypal account.  So I won't be accepting online entries until I can choose a payment provider I approve of.

[DanialW]

I'm an AUK committee member, but I do not speak for the committee. I have my opinion on this topic, but I'm reluctant to say too much in case people assume that what I say is Audax UK 'policy'.

If you have a question to ask us, then send your questions to Richard Phipps who will forward them to the committee. The next committee meeting is on 23 February, and the topic of pre-paid cards is already on the agenda.

If you ask us a question on a public YACF thread, it will probably not be answered.

[Philip Whiteman]

As this discussion seems to have diverged to electronic v cheque payments, I thought I would share some stats with you.

For my Snowdrop and Sunrise Express, combined payments by payment type work out at the following:

-   174 Paypal entries. (72.5%)
-   66 snail-mail entries.  (27.5%)
-   Total: 240 entries

For my Montgomery Madness Perm:

 -   15 Paypal entries (100%)

These simple figures indicate the popularity and ease of electronic payments for entrants.

From my perspective, I welcome Paypal entries as it allows quick communication and dissemination via e-mail.  Next year, I can advertise the 2012 event.  

However, it is not pain free:
- I still need to label return envelopes for the completed Brevet cards.
- I have to conduct a lot of manual transfer of data from the entry form onto Excel due to my inability to fix a macro from Outlook onto Excel.

[phil d]

I'm an AUK committee member, but I do not speak for the committee. I have my opinion on this topic, but I'm reluctant to say too much in case people assume that what I say is Audax UK 'policy'.

If you have a question to ask us, then send your questions to Richard Phipps who will forward them to the committee. The next committee meeting is on 23 February, and the topic of pre-paid cards is already on the agenda.

If you ask us a question on a public YACF thread, it will probably not be answered.

As ever we must remember that yACF is NOT AUK, or the official discussion medium for AUK.  And only a small proportion of AUK participate in discussion here.

[damerell]

I deleted my paypal account.  So I won't be accepting online entries until I can choose a payment provider I approve of.

Quite. Mandatory Paypal would be dismal. It's all very well as an alternative to paper entry, but if AUK is going to mandate electronic payments, they should be done properly.

I'm heartened to see I'm not the only one with a soft spot for small events!

[DanialW]

Part of the problem is that we have no idea what AUK policy or strategic planning is on a whole bunch of issues. We get occaisional snippets that 'things are happening' but there has been very little discussion or sharing of strategic plans. Ref: The Beta Website. Where did this come from? And where is it going?

The end result is when anything does happen we get threads like this one as interested members try and divine the committee's motives and future intentions.

And have you asked the committee about their 'motives and future intentions' on this 'whole bunch of issues'? Not in private messages on YACF, or at the bar after the AGM, but by email or letter to the secretary?

[DanialW]

Yes.

Edit: I have at various times been in communication with committee member using a variety of communictaions channels. But I find it strange that questions must be raised formally via the AUK Secretary. Should I include an SAE? That last was a joke by the way!

Strange as it may seem, if you've a question of a committee, then it's best to ask that committee. It's no good asking committee members, because they are not the committee.

So, put your questions to the committee via Richard Phipps, the committee secretary, if you want an official answer.

[border-rider]

If you ask us a question on a public YACF thread, it will probably not be answered.

That's fair enough when it's a new issue. I chair all sorts of commitees, and sit on several more, and one does indeed have to be wary of making policy on the hoof.  But if there is already an agreed position on something, which has been discussed & minuted, it seems to me that there might be an expectation that a member asking for information on it could be answered, whatever the forum or medium.

[DanialW]

If you ask us a question on a public YACF thread, it will probably not be answered.

That's fair enough when it's a new issue. I chair all sorts of commitees, and sit on several more, and one does indeed have to be wary of making policy on the hoof.  But if there is already an agreed position on something, which has been discussed & minuted, it seems to me that there might be an expectation that a member asking for information on it could be answered, whatever the forum or medium.

I agree with everything you say, except the last five words. In the case of AUK, although many of the committee contribute to this forum, you cannot expect us to pick up and/or be able to answer questions on this forum.

[daveb]

Making sure it'll all go in the envelope such that the PO don't charge extra for it

Sticking down the envelope with sellotape because it's not sticky enough

Finding the damn sellotape

Going on an expotition to the post box, some miles away

Wondering of the Postman has been eaten by tigers again, or whether the routesheet will arrive in time

All of which the org has to do xN with the dodgy collection of SAE's they've been sent. Even with postal entry I'd still like to get rid of the 2x SAEs as an organiser.

I surcharged postal entries for the Poor Student this year and put on the calendar notes "No SAEs required". About 85-90% of the entries were online but about 90% of the paper entries included SAEs.

I find online entrants much easier to handle.

Re the Royal Mail, I live in a medium sized village in Oxfordshire and still, somehow, one of the postal entries arrived a month after it was posted and a week after the event. The Brevet Cards also arrived after the event.