Author Topic: Random audax questions  (Read 223168 times)

eck

  • Gonna ride my bike until I get home...
    • Angus Bike Chain CC
Re: Random audax questions
« Reply #225 on: December 19, 2011, 06:47:10 pm »
the minimum distance between controls rule.

where can I find these rules please?
Mr j, sir, the only reference I can see is in the Guidelines (nb, not the Rules) bit of the handbook:
http://www.aukweb.net/handbook/handbook.pdf
Guideline 5, P57:
Quote
AUK events require controls placed at an average of 50-80km intervals, to ensure adequate rest and refreshment and the integrity of the total distance.
A bit flexible then... :thumbsup:

I think, but CBA looking, that there is something somewhere that says for events up to (guessing) 200km, they should be an average of 50km, and over that, an average of 80km. But I may be wrong, again.  ;D

FWIW, I think our events are fairly typical: the Snow Roads 300 has four intermediate controls (not counting an info): the average distance between them is about 67km, the longest leg is just over 80km. And the Potter for Tea 100 has two proper controls, at an average of 33km, the longest leg is 41km.

ETA: Mrs eck says to tell you that there are no Rules limiting the number of bridies that may be consumed.  :-*
It's a bit weird, but actually quite wonderful.

jogler

  • mojo operandi
Re: Random audax questions
« Reply #226 on: December 19, 2011, 07:23:15 pm »
Thanks for the clarification phil d.

Thanks for the info eck :thumbsup:
& the infinite bridies policy is a joy exceeded only by spending 24hrs in the company of Mrs eck while you thrashed about on a bike. ;)

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Random audax questions
« Reply #227 on: December 19, 2011, 07:23:29 pm »
the minimum distance between controls rule

Isn't it marvellous to see how even the simplest phrase can be interpreted more than one way. ;D

(And people wonder why the wording of regs produces such lengthy debate ... )
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

CrazyEnglishTriathlete

  • Miles eaten don't satisfy hunger
  • Chartered accountant in 5 different decades
    • CET Ride Reports and Blogs
Re: Random audax questions
« Reply #228 on: December 20, 2011, 06:58:07 pm »
I am merely referring to the fact that the minimum distance between start and finish, passing through all control points, must be not less than the nominal distance (200k or whatever).  The actual routesheet might take you on a longer route to avoid main roads, etc.  This is pretty much the first check (maybe the only check) that the DIY organiser will do when you lodge your entry.  The method of measuring this minimum distance has been discussed on these boards many times, but depending on the organiser is usually done on Autoroute (using "shortest") or GoogleMaps (using "walking", though beware that this will often route you down a bridleway that you wouldn't venture along on a road bike.  I'm afraid that LycraMan here has experience of this  :-[)

I've just been through this for a new perm in Wales - the Perms organiser is open to discussion on GoogleMaps walking routes that take you along bridlepaths (in my case as I know the ground - one with a 33% gradient sideways camber that would make most mountain-bikers gibber).  With perms there is always likely to be a few cases where the most obvious route (and the one that most people would take) is not the shortest.  This means that the typical rider will end up doing some over-distance.  For example Llandrindod Wells - Clun - Newtown - Llandrindod Wells by the obvious main roads is 120km but if you look very carefully you can trim about 6km of each of the legs reducing it to 102km - but probably taking longer due to dodgy lanes and precipitous gradients.

As for distances between controls - the Perms organiser has not blanched at a 10.1km stage on the new perm - which allows the route to get over the magic distance and include the purely gratuitous ascent of the classic Tumble climb  :)
Eddington Numbers 125 (imperial), 170 (metric) 520 (furlongs)  112 (nautical miles)

Re: Random audax questions
« Reply #229 on: December 20, 2011, 09:05:05 pm »
I'm hoping to do an ECE to a 100k event, which will mean out and back legs of 55k to and from the calendar event.  These legs are within the recommended cntrol distances for audax.  So, to me, this means a receipt at home for the start of the first leg then either a signature in the ECE box by the Calendar organiser (or a receipt from that location)  and the same in reverse for the return.  Am I right about this (I'm not clear from Martin's otherwise excellent article on ECEs)?  The reason I ask is that it would be theoretically possible to get a receipt at home, drive to the event, park round the corner, etc.

Re: Random audax questions
« Reply #230 on: December 20, 2011, 09:51:02 pm »
Forgive me for being pedantic, but how does one get a receipt "at home"? Unless you live in a shop of some sort.
You're only as successful as your last 1200...

Manotea

  • Where there is doubt...
Re: Random audax questions
« Reply #231 on: December 20, 2011, 10:35:01 pm »
It would be theoretically possible to drive round the route spending most of the day hanging out in cafe's. At the end of the day we're all on an 'honour' system. If you want to cheat then go ahead though it seems pretty pointless (sic).

I think we're all clear that unless you are on a GPS ride that 'home' is in fact your local shop/garage/atm unless you really do live out in the sticks, in which case it will be a good idea to look at coming to some alternate arrangement with your local DIY Org. Where there's a will there's a way.

CrazyEnglishTriathlete

  • Miles eaten don't satisfy hunger
  • Chartered accountant in 5 different decades
    • CET Ride Reports and Blogs
Re: Random audax questions
« Reply #232 on: December 20, 2011, 10:42:09 pm »
Forgive me for being pedantic, but how does one get a receipt "at home"? Unless you live in a shop of some sort.

Mrs CET has been known to act as a controller.  Although there is an ATM 0.4km away.
Eddington Numbers 125 (imperial), 170 (metric) 520 (furlongs)  112 (nautical miles)

Re: Random audax questions
« Reply #233 on: December 20, 2011, 11:17:30 pm »
Sorry, I didn't expect that you would take me literally about "home".  I've done several DIYs and I use an ATM in the village.  I also don't intend to cheat and I know we depend on honesty!   What I wanted to know was, have I got it right that, for a 50k leg, I just need a receipt at the start and then either something from  the organiser of the Calendar event when I arrive or a receipt from there?

Manotea

  • Where there is doubt...
Re: Random audax questions
« Reply #234 on: December 21, 2011, 12:15:26 am »
If you are using a ECE Brevet Card then a receipt from the start/finish and have the Calendar event org sign/stamp your card at the event start/finish should do it (assuming it is >50km shortest distance from home to the Arrivee, i.e., no intermediate controls).

Re: Random audax questions
« Reply #235 on: December 21, 2011, 01:00:17 am »
OK, thanks, Manotea.

Euan Uzami

Re: Random audax questions
« Reply #236 on: December 21, 2011, 07:35:03 pm »
Just another few quick questions about DIY/perms (sorry if these have been asked before or are obvious/stupid numpty questions, but I have not really done any DIYs/perms before but this year I am going to take an 'if you can't beat em join em' attitude):

* If I enter a perm/DIY, I get a brevet card back through the post, which all being well, I then use on the day I have nominated. However if say the weather is really bad or for some reason I can't/don't ride it on that nominated day, can I keep the brevet card to ride that same perm/DIY but on a future date?
I presume I have to notify the organiser in advance when I am planning on rescheduling the ride, to prevent me just taking off when the fancy takes me or when it looks nice out, so how much notice do I have to give?

* Also, if I get a brevet card back when I have submitted a DIY, I presume the return of a brevet card means that the route has been validated by the organiser (in terms of having  fulfilled the min. distance between controls etc. to their satisfaction)?

* How much notice is it generally deemed acceptable to give for the DIY organiser to do such route validation? - and presumably they don't need to re-validate if I re-enter a DIY that i've done before?
* I've read/heard of some people building up "stashes" of perm/DIY cards, or "ordering a batch" of them at once, what's the value in doing this if any?

Martin

Re: Random audax questions
« Reply #237 on: December 21, 2011, 07:53:49 pm »
1 If I enter a perm/DIY, I get a brevet card back through the post, which all being well, I then use on the day I have nominated. However if say the weather is really bad or for some reason I can't/don't ride it on that nominated day, can I keep the brevet card to ride that same perm/DIY but on a future date?
I presume I have to notify the organiser in advance when I am planning on rescheduling the ride, to prevent me just taking off when the fancy takes me or when it looks nice out, so how much notice do I have to give?

2 Also, if I get a brevet card back when I have submitted a DIY, I presume the return of a brevet card means that the route has been validated by the organiser (in terms of having  fulfilled the min. distance between controls etc. to their satisfaction)?

3 How much notice is it generally deemed acceptable to give for the DIY organiser to do such route validation? - and presumably they don't need to re-validate if I re-enter a DIY that i've done before?
4 I've read/heard of some people building up "stashes" of perm/DIY cards, or "ordering a batch" of them at once, what's the value in doing this if any?

Ben; to answer your questions in a DIY context;

1. If you've sent in an entry and don't let the organiser know you are not riding on the day the DIY cards is spent (whether paper or virtual) so it's always best to pre-check the route for distance and enter as you are about to roll out or the night before

2. Yes if you sent a DIY entry with your cheque

3. Ideally 14 days; depends on the organiser if less

4. A very good idea as they are a. cheaper that way b. you can submit an online entry just before you ride as you already have the card

HTH

Charlie Boy

  • Dreams in kilometers
Re: Random audax questions
« Reply #238 on: December 21, 2011, 07:57:32 pm »
Hi Ben

As I understand it:

With a DIY the organiser will not check the route when you ride, only after (although some will before if you ask nicely). So it's up to you to make sure the route complies.

When you buy the card online you will give a date you intend to ride. If you want to change it you just tell the organiser before you set off. This can be 5 minutes before, as long as you do.

With a perm you buy the card and tell the organiser when you intend to go. Again, you can change the date and many will let you use one of the intermediate controls as your start and finish if it's nearer to home for you (or, if you live on the route, add an extra control at home). Not all will though, so best to ask.

Most DIY organisers will sell you cards in batches of 5 so you only have to apply once then ride when you can the sun is shining.
Mojo is being awakened.

Martin

Re: Random audax questions
« Reply #239 on: December 21, 2011, 08:02:55 pm »
CB; a DIY org (I am one) will always check a route for distance before the ride if requested; if it's at very short notice the onus is on the rider; but google maps set to walking will always be accepted as minimum distance if unsure

Charlie Boy

  • Dreams in kilometers
Re: Random audax questions
« Reply #240 on: December 21, 2011, 08:08:09 pm »
Sorry Martin, didn't see your reply before I posted mine!
Mojo is being awakened.

Euan Uzami

Re: Random audax questions
« Reply #241 on: December 21, 2011, 08:35:25 pm »

Ben; to answer your questions in a DIY context;

1. If you've sent in an entry and don't let the organiser know you are not riding on the day the DIY cards is spent (whether paper or virtual) so it's always best to pre-check the route for distance and enter as you are about to roll out or the night before

Right, so let me just get this straight so I understand you correctly:
Am I right in thinking I am perfectly legitimate in doing the following:
* Buy one/a batch of DIY cards from DIY organiser
* Submit a route and say I am going to ride it on, say, 15th Jan
* On 14th jan, send an email to the organiser saying I am not going to ride it (so the card is "unspent")
* Wait till the weather looks nice, say it looks nice on 21st jan : so I send the organiser an email saying "I am now off out to do this DIY that I was going to do on 15th jan but didn't", and then 5 minutes later set off out and ride it
* return home with all receipts and send them in with the "unspent" card for validation

Sorry to be pedantic/hypothetical but it seems from what you are saying that it effectively allows me to NOT nominate my date in advance. Which I was under the (perhaps mistaken) impression that you had to do. This would suggest  DIYs require one to be less audacious in terms of being at the mercy of future weather conditions, which thus frees up more audacity to enable you to be more audacious in terms of a longer/harder route at a more unseasonable time of year. (I'm not complaining - I think it's good if it is like that - I just want to clarify...and to check it isn't "technically allowed but a loophole that's frowned upon")

Martin

Re: Random audax questions
« Reply #242 on: December 21, 2011, 08:39:23 pm »
Ben; yes everything you have there is correct; you can either choose to enter the event in advance or just before you ride; once you have entered and not revoked / amended the entry the card is spent

Euan Uzami

Re: Random audax questions
« Reply #243 on: December 21, 2011, 08:44:38 pm »
Oh right, thanks Martin.
I'll get some cards then I think.

bikey-mikey

  • AUK 6372
  • Yes, I am completely mad ! a.k.a. 333
Re: Random audax questions
« Reply #244 on: December 24, 2011, 11:41:45 pm »
Oh right, thanks Martin.
I'll get some cards then I think.

Hi Ben

Remember that you can also do these by GPS if you like (if I remember, you have a Garmin Etrex???)

The advantages are:-

a) you don't have to post anything - nothing to get lost in the post

b) you can enter the night before having seen the weather forecasts (n.b. that is still NO guarantee...)

c) no need to stop and get receipts

d) no need to post card and receipts back (nothing to get lost in the post again)

e) you can put your controls anywhere, e.g. start actually at home, and finish actually at home - N.B. you can also 'turn' at a junction or roundabout in the middle of nowhere, as long as you quote the ordnance survey grid reference (many free programs will give you this) - often this helps me to get the distance just right, else I would have to go to the nearest shop, ATM, pub etc which might be miles away...

f) you can buy 6 electronic brevets at a good discount
I’ve decided I’m not old. I’m 25 .....plus shipping and handling.

Cycling heatmap
https://www.strava.com/athletes/4628735/heatmaps/6ed5ab12#10/51.12782/-3.16388

Euan Uzami

Re: Random audax questions
« Reply #245 on: December 26, 2011, 03:33:28 pm »
Oh right, thanks Martin.
I'll get some cards then I think.

Hi Ben

Remember that you can also do these by GPS if you like (if I remember, you have a Garmin Etrex???)

The advantages are:-

a) you don't have to post anything - nothing to get lost in the post

b) you can enter the night before having seen the weather forecasts (n.b. that is still NO guarantee...)

c) no need to stop and get receipts

d) no need to post card and receipts back (nothing to get lost in the post again)

e) you can put your controls anywhere, e.g. start actually at home, and finish actually at home - N.B. you can also 'turn' at a junction or roundabout in the middle of nowhere, as long as you quote the ordnance survey grid reference (many free programs will give you this) - often this helps me to get the distance just right, else I would have to go to the nearest shop, ATM, pub etc which might be miles away...

f) you can buy 6 electronic brevets at a good discount

re. b), as far as I understand it, I can still enter the night before anyway, can't I?
As long as the route's sufficiently overdistance for me to be sure that it will be validated (and/or if I've previously had it validated for an earlier date but postponed it?)

You're right Mike I have got an etrex but I don't intend to use it for diy by gps.
Regarding the subject of diy by gps in general, basically, I am going by the rule of "if you haven't got anything positive to say, don't say anything at all", and I haven't got anything positive to say so I'm not saying anything at all.  O:-)


mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Random audax questions
« Reply #246 on: December 26, 2011, 06:27:47 pm »

re. b), as far as I understand it, I can still enter the night before anyway, can't I?
As long as the route's sufficiently overdistance for me to be sure that it will be validated (and/or if I've previously had it validated for an earlier date but postponed it?)

Correct. I'm not aware of any difference here with GPS validation.
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Martin

Re: Random audax questions
« Reply #247 on: December 26, 2011, 06:35:52 pm »

re. b), as far as I understand it, I can still enter the night before anyway, can't I?
As long as the route's sufficiently overdistance for me to be sure that it will be validated (and/or if I've previously had it validated for an earlier date but postponed it?)

Correct. I'm not aware of any difference here with GPS validation.

yes correct; although the entry form may well arrive after the completed DIY card knowing the post; so it's always best online  :)

Re: Random audax questions
« Reply #248 on: December 27, 2011, 02:12:25 pm »
I know about ECE events.

1. Is it possible to extend a permanent in the same way?

2. If so, is it possible to retain AAA points from the parmanent or does the extra distance mean the climbing is "invalidated"?

3. If the answer to 1 is "no", could the permanent be included in a DIY (with permission of the perm organiser) and what would happen to AAA points in such a case?

4. Which cards would be required?

Additional marks will be given for spelling.  Your time starts......NOW!

Re: Random audax questions
« Reply #249 on: December 27, 2011, 02:27:04 pm »
Oh right, thanks Martin.
I'll get some cards then I think.

Hi Ben

Remember that you can also do these by GPS if you like (if I remember, you have a Garmin Etrex???)

The advantages are:-

a) you don't have to post anything - nothing to get lost in the post

b) you can enter the night before having seen the weather forecasts (n.b. that is still NO guarantee...)

c) no need to stop and get receipts

d) no need to post card and receipts back (nothing to get lost in the post again)

e) you can put your controls anywhere, e.g. start actually at home, and finish actually at home - N.B. you can also 'turn' at a junction or roundabout in the middle of nowhere, as long as you quote the ordnance survey grid reference (many free programs will give you this) - often this helps me to get the distance just right, else I would have to go to the nearest shop, ATM, pub etc which might be miles away...

f) you can buy 6 electronic brevets at a good discount

A few disadvantages to even things up.

1. Batteries. If your GPS uses them then they will add cost to the ride, either by recharging them or replacing them.

2. If the GPS batteries go flat you're stuffed.

3. If the GPS malfunctions (mine has once this year) then you're stuffed.

4. If you have a senior moment when transferring the GPS track log to your computer and accidentally delete it then you're stuffed.
You're only as successful as your last 1200...