Author Topic: Help with frame related questions  (Read 159691 times)

Re: Help with frame related questions
« Reply #25 on: July 03, 2011, 12:04:56 pm »
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That would be a good idea.

Re: Help with frame related questions
« Reply #26 on: July 03, 2011, 04:49:44 pm »
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Thats fine by me. The more the merrier  ;D

Dave Yates
It's not just hitting it with a hammer but knowing where to hit it and how hard

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Re: Help with frame related questions
« Reply #27 on: July 03, 2011, 05:08:18 pm »
Hi Dave.

I'd love a English custom built touring frame. This is something I have wanted for years and maybe in the next few years I'll get one ?

I have always fancied Columbus though titanium is the order of the day nowadays.
What material would you choose and who would you pick for a build other than yourself ? Oh my frame would have to be lugged. I dont fancy paying good money for a butted frame.

Also I have noticed stove enamaled paintwork looks the best ? What paint finish would you pick ?

Thanks

John

Re: Help with frame related questions
« Reply #28 on: July 03, 2011, 08:22:55 pm »
Another from me if I may Dave..

My present audax frame is fillet brazed 853 with a sloping top tube.  I have a sneaking feeling my next frame will come from your workshop, either built by me if I can persuade Mrs Tewdric that she needs to send me on the course, or (probably more likely....) by your good self.  

I will agonise for months over whether to go for 853 again, or get something perhaps a little more comfy with less stiffness in the tubes, or go for 953.  

Similarly I will waste half my life pondering a horizontal versus sloping top tube.  My current
view of the world is probably 653 horizontal top-tube lugged if I build it, 953 fillet-brazed if you do.    

What would your advice be?

Re: Help with frame related questions
« Reply #29 on: July 03, 2011, 10:42:06 pm »
Hi Dave, I have a question.  Colour no. 28 on your colour chart - what happened?  I'm assuming it's pearlescent orange? 

You built me a beautiful 631 Super Randonneur a few years back in this colour.  People often comment about the colour, even non-cyclists admire it's sparkly beauty.  Why does no one have good taste any more?  ::-) ;D

Seriously, what's your view on the current dash for titanium?  When you built my frame it was the thing to have (and IMO still is).  But as usual with me, it went out of fashion the very next day.  :-[

The proliferation of titanium on most Scottish audaxes saddens me.  Who wants a grey bike?  Well, nearly everyone.  I'm not about to change and I've never ridden a Ti frame, but, in your opinion, is there any real advantage to them?

Long live custom built steel.  Long live colourful frames.  :thumbsup:

Re: Help with frame related questions
« Reply #30 on: July 03, 2011, 11:14:49 pm »
Hi Dave.

I'd love a English custom built touring frame. This is something I have wanted for years and maybe in the next few years I'll get one ?

I have always fancied Columbus though titanium is the order of the day nowadays.
What material would you choose and who would you pick for a build other than yourself ? Oh my frame would have to be lugged. I dont fancy paying good money for a butted frame.
My choice of tube for a full blooded touring frame, ie front and rear panniers, equipped for an extended tour, would be Reynolds 525. It has the same published properties as the old 531 and IHMO works really well on this sort of frame if the tube sections are chosen carefully. Columbus is fine but I doubt you could tell the difference if the frame was designed and built properly
Who to build it? Thats a bit of a leading question  ;D I can think of a few good builders but it comes down to Chas Roberts or Robin Mather
I dont understand your reference to "not paying good money for a butted frame" By that do you mean lugless construction, either fillet brazed or TIG welded. Nothing wrong with either method but a frame like this is to fit your dream so you have it built the way you want



Also I have noticed stove enamaled paintwork looks the best ? What paint finish would you pick ? Stove enamel is what I use and I consider it to be the best for the job if you want a decent finish. Two pack is nearly as good now but not quite as durable. Powder coating is a bullet proof utility finish

Thanks

John

Cheers

Dave Yates
It's not just hitting it with a hammer but knowing where to hit it and how hard

Re: Help with frame related questions
« Reply #31 on: July 03, 2011, 11:31:28 pm »
Another from me if I may Dave..

My present audax frame is fillet brazed 853 with a sloping top tube.  I have a sneaking feeling my next frame will come from your workshop, either built by me if I can persuade Mrs Tewdric that she needs to send me on the course, or (probably more likely....) by your good self.  

I will agonise for months over whether to go for 853 again, or get something perhaps a little more comfy with less stiffness in the tubes, or go for 953.  

Similarly I will waste half my life pondering a horizontal versus sloping top tube.  My current
view of the world is probably 653 horizontal top-tube lugged if I build it, 953 fillet-brazed if you do.    

What would your advice be?

653 is no longer available nor has it been for about fifteen years !!! I presume you mean 631, which is an excellent choice for an Audax frame if you want comfort over long distances. When I was audaxing a lot I built myself an 853 frame and found it far too harsh. I rode four 200s on it and finished each one absolutely battered, I have finished 600s in better condition !! I certainly would not recommend 953 for an audax bike as it is supposed to make a stiffer frame than 853, I fear it would rattle your eyeballs out of their sockets.
Sloping TT vs Horizontal? Whatever turns you on. As long as you get your saddle and bars in the correct position relative to the bottom bracket centre then how you connect them together is a matter for your personal choice. Sorry, but you will have to keep pondering ;D

Cheers

Dave Yates
It's not just hitting it with a hammer but knowing where to hit it and how hard

Re: Help with frame related questions
« Reply #32 on: July 03, 2011, 11:57:34 pm »
Hi Dave, I have a question.  Colour no. 28 on your colour chart - what happened?  I'm assuming it's pearlescent orange? 
It is actually Flamboyant Orange and alas I can no longer do that as the tin I had is finished and I cant get any more
You built me a beautiful 631 Super Randonneur a few years back in this colour.  People often comment about the colour, even non-cyclists admire it's sparkly beauty.  Why does no one have good taste any more?  ::-) ;D

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder ;D

Seriously, what's your view on the current dash for titanium?  When you built my frame it was the thing to have (and IMO still is).  But as usual with me, it went out of fashion the very next day.  :-[

The proliferation of titanium on most Scottish audaxes saddens me.  Who wants a grey bike?  Well, nearly everyone.  I'm not about to change and I've never ridden a Ti frame, but, in your opinion, is there any real advantage to them?
I too have never ridden a titanium frame so I can only comment from a theoretical standpoint. Talking to people that own then seems to indicate that they give a nice ride and they dont rust. By and large you cannot get a true custom Ti frame, ie talk to the builder and specify every last detail. I'm sure someone will be along shortly to tell me otherwise  ;D. There are probably American builders doing this but the cost will be astronomical. So the option for most is one of the many off the peg frames about and if that is what you want then fine !!! Down side is if it breaks or you have a crash and it is damaged, getting it repaired is a real nightmare not to say expensive if you can find  someone to repair it.
There is a difference between "want" and "need" we dont actually need most of what we want but if aquiring what you want makes you happy then go for it !!!!! Cycling is a very fashion conscious pastime so flavour of the month will always be an influence


Long live custom built steel.  Long live colourful frames.  :thumbsup:

I'll drink to that


Cheers

Dave Yates

It's not just hitting it with a hammer but knowing where to hit it and how hard

Re: Help with frame related questions
« Reply #33 on: July 04, 2011, 10:06:06 pm »
Sloping TT vs Horizontal? Whatever turns you on. As long as you get your saddle and bars in the correct position relative to the bottom bracket centre then how you connect them together is a matter for your personal choice. Sorry, but you will have to keep pondering ;D

I meant 631 of course, too much sun on the road yesterday...

You've confirmed my thoughts about sloping top tube vs horizontal with that answer - I think it's more about form and fashion rather than engineering and function.  It's going to have to be 631 lugged with a horizontal top tube and clearance (but only just) for 28c tyres.

Have I just described a Super Randonneur by any chance? :-)

Having said that I do like the ride of my tight clearance 853 frame for audax - I was fresh as a daisy in the arse and eyeball departments after my recent 600 and enjoyed the lively and efficient ride. 

Decisions decisions..

Re: Help with frame related questions
« Reply #34 on: July 07, 2011, 10:20:04 am »
Quote
Have I just described a Super Randonneur by any chance? :-)

Spot on  ;D

Quote
Having said that I do like the ride of my tight clearance 853 frame for audax - I was fresh as a daisy in the arse and eyeball departments after my recent 600 and enjoyed the lively and efficient ride. 

Decisions decisions..


Many things affect the perceived "comfort" of a bike, frame size, design, material (all 853 or main triangle only), forks, wheels, tyres, contact points ie saddle, bars, pedals. The list goes on. You obviously have all of these nailed to your particular satisfaction. Well done !!!  I sometimes put an 853 down tube in big Audax frames to stop them flexing too much but I would certainly advise against if the frame was very small.

All of the advice I give to customers is of course just my opinion based on my experience and is not carved in tablets of stone. One of the first things I tell people on my course is that there are as many different ways of building frames as there are frame builders. No one way is "right"

I hope you notice I have finally worked out how to selectively "quote" from the post I am replying to. Its dead complicated this computer stuff ;)

Cheers

Dave Yates
It's not just hitting it with a hammer but knowing where to hit it and how hard

Re: Help with frame related questions
« Reply #35 on: July 07, 2011, 10:27:12 am »
Not really a question but a statement. I have an oddball frame made from 653 throughout (confirmed by the builder, Mercian). Yes I know that theoretically rear triangles etc weren't made of 653, but this was a one-off made for the owner of Mercian.

It is a wonderful ride, responsive and quick even though the rear stays are as long as a bus.

However, when I damaged the BB shell, Mercian were very reluctant to the point of refusal when I asked them to repair it. They said that because it was all 653, and old, the chances were that many of the tubes would be rusted to near failure and they couldn't guarantee any longevity.

Dave, would you regard 631 as the modern 531? Is there much difference?
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Re: Help with frame related questions
« Reply #36 on: July 07, 2011, 10:31:20 am »
The proliferation of titanium on most Scottish audaxes saddens me.  Who wants a grey bike? 

raw titanium isn't grey, it's a sort of silver with a goldish tinge
Or grey with a hint of rust if you prefer...
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clarion

  • Tyke
Re: Help with frame related questions
« Reply #37 on: July 07, 2011, 10:47:44 am »
Or black.  Well, that's what my Ti bike is going to be when I get it, and have it sprayed.  You think I want people to know I'm riding round Central London on a Ti frame?  Not bloody likely.
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Re: Help with frame related questions
« Reply #38 on: July 07, 2011, 10:51:00 am »
My titanium Raleigh Timet is grey, with the merest hint of gold in a certain light.  It is basically grey!  It has a matt oxidised finish.

You can brighten the bike up with coloured bar tape and tyres or whatever.
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Re: Help with frame related questions
« Reply #39 on: July 07, 2011, 09:17:57 pm »
Now then Mr Charly

Quote
I have an oddball frame made from 653 throughout (confirmed by the builder, Mercian). Yes I know that theoretically rear triangles etc weren't made of 653, but this was a one-off made for the owner of Mercian.

The set of tubes marketed as 653 consisted of 531 main triangle tubes that had been drawn to a higher tensile strength. Around 60 tons/sq inch as opposed to 50 tons for standard 531. When the tubes are produced they are drawn through a die over a mandrel to produce the butt profile. This drawing process work hardens the tube. As far as I know 631 was drawn through a slightly tighter die to work harden it a bit more. The chain and seat stays were always (at least on all the sets I ever saw) 753 which was  simply 531 heat treated to make it "stronger" I have never heard of 653 chain or seat stays. The nature of their production precludes the drawing process used to make the main triangle tubes.
I am going to stick my neck out and say it sounds like a load of waffle :o
Having said that, I can understand Mercian's reluctance to repair an old frame made of thin tubes, a bit like Russian Roulette ;D
Incidentally, what is actually wrong with the BB shell? There may be other options.

Quote
Dave, would you regard 631 as the modern 531? Is there much difference?

631 is 853 without the heat treatment. It is an air hardening alloy steel and significantly "better" than the old 531 for cetain applications. On a like for like frame you would get a more responsive ride with 631 IMHO.

Cheers

Dave Yates

PS The "653" back end may have been something that Reynolds were playing with at the time. Thinking back I used to get stuff for national squad riders that no one else had access to.

It's not just hitting it with a hammer but knowing where to hit it and how hard

Re: Help with frame related questions
« Reply #40 on: July 07, 2011, 09:36:52 pm »
Having swopped out a 20 year old 531 super galaxy for a new 631 SG must say that perceived comfort is as good if not better with the new bike. Just a shame that machines have taken over from frame builder. Unicrown forks are certainly not as elegant and of course you can't repair the new frame as readily as before. Personally I hope things are going full circle and that we will see the renaissance of British built bike frames.
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clarion

  • Tyke
Re: Help with frame related questions
« Reply #41 on: July 07, 2011, 09:49:22 pm »
Unicrown forks are ugly ugly ugly.

There.

I've said it.
Getting there...

Re: Help with frame related questions
« Reply #42 on: July 08, 2011, 12:22:40 pm »
I am going to stick my neck out and say it sounds like a load of waffle :o
Having said that, I can understand Mercian's reluctance to repair an old frame made of thin tubes, a bit like Russian Roulette ;D

It does sound unlikely, but the framebuilder was very insistent, said it was a one-off and they'd be unable to replace tubes with like-for-like if something went wrong. So maybe Mercian had some odd samples to play with.  It's also possible that I misheard and they meant 653/753 throughout.

Incidentally, what is actually wrong with the BB shell? There may be other options.
It 'stretched' on the drive-side, to the extent that the diameter was 2mm larger than it should have been for over 10mm. non-drive-side distorted a bit.

I 'fixed' it by filling with epoxy putty, then sanding back until a Prestige 'clamping' bb would slide in with encouragement - a very very tight friction fit. then I threadlocked the Prestige clamping bits. After I'd done all of this, I heard of 'resleeving', which would have probably worked.

It's surviving - I've probably done 3000miles on the frame since then. 
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Re: Help with frame related questions
« Reply #43 on: July 13, 2011, 06:13:15 pm »
Quote
I 'fixed' it by filling with epoxy putty, then sanding back until a Prestige 'clamping' bb would slide in with encouragement - a very very tight friction fit. then I threadlocked the Prestige clamping bits. After I'd done all of this, I heard of 'resleeving', which would have probably worked.

It's surviving - I've probably done 3000miles on the frame since then. 

Been away in the caravan for a few days chilling out and dog training, hence delay in replying.
Sounds like a workmanlike repair. If or when it gives up then a sleeve job is probably the way to go for a permanent fix.
It is a steel frame and therefore fixable (usually) no matter what the problem ;D

Cheers

Dave Yates
It's not just hitting it with a hammer but knowing where to hit it and how hard

PH

Re: Help with frame related questions
« Reply #44 on: July 17, 2011, 07:55:36 pm »
Hi Dave.  One I've been pondering while thinking/dreaming of the next bike. 
What determines the maximum tyre size when using deep drop brakes?  Some bikes using them seem to only manage 25mm by distorting the mudguard, others seem fine with 28mm and I've heard of people using 30s.  Is it just the height of the brake bridge?  If so why are they not all designed to take the maximum possible?  Or is there some disadvantage?  What tyre size would you say was possible if I was asking for these brakes and mudguards?
Thanks

Biggsy

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Re: Help with frame related questions
« Reply #45 on: July 17, 2011, 08:23:54 pm »
Just a couple of details while you're waiting for Dave...

Indeed the position of the brake doesn't always allow this, but the deepest-drop caliper brakes can take tyres bigger than 35mm.

Sometimes what limits the tyre size is the chain stays - their length and distance apart.  Often, bikes with a short wheel base can't take fat tyres.  Hopefully Dave will explain any advantages of a short wheel base.
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Re: Help with frame related questions
« Reply #46 on: July 17, 2011, 11:41:13 pm »
Now then Mr PH

It depends on how the frame was built. Specifically the height of the brake bridge and the length of the forks. I usually set these dimensions so the brake blocks are at the bottom of the slot on the intended brake giving the maximum clearance. Usually that will take a 28mm tyre with guards. All 28mm tyres are not created equal so you may get a skinny 32 in  but may have difficulty with a beefy 28. This is assuming a 57mm drop brake. There are deeper brakes on the market but all the ones I have seen tend to be a bit Mickey Mouse in the retardation department. Biggsy's comment on chainstays is quite correct but why would you want to put big tyres on a bike with a short back end which is more in keeping with a race type bike.
The two things I get asked most about are the two things with least relevance to "performance" ie weight and wheelbase. I design a frame to do a job and the weight comes out at whatever the weight comes out at !!! With decent tube and components there will only be a difference of about 2lb between a super light steel frame ( about 3lb) and a heavy steel frame (about 5lb).
Wheelbase is a function of about 11 different dimensions all of which are more important than their sum. Again I design the frame to fit and suit the purpose of the customer and it comes out at whatever it comes out at. I have never used either as a design parameter.
Some of the worst handling bikes I have ever ridden were ultra short wheelbase TT bikes most of which were nothing short of lethal.

Cheers

Dave Yates
It's not just hitting it with a hammer but knowing where to hit it and how hard

Re: Help with frame related questions
« Reply #47 on: July 18, 2011, 06:57:49 pm »
I have a question about preparing and protecting the inside of a steel frame.

I've finally got my seatpost out and there's some surface rust on the inside of the seat tube. I'd like to remove this and protect the tubing so it doesn't happen again. I figure a squirt of waxoyl down each tube would be a good way of protecting them (is this a reasonable assumption?), but how do I clean the rust off the seat tube first?
Do you put anything inside your steel frames to protect them from rust?

Cheers
Duncan

PH

Re: Help with frame related questions
« Reply #48 on: July 18, 2011, 08:59:08 pm »
Thanks both Biggsy and Dave for the replies.  So I'm realistically looking at a normal 28mm tyre and mudguard, not as big as I'd hoped, still bigger than many frames seem to accommodate.  I see how this is achieved by using the full drop of the brakes, I'm still puzzled why  all builders don't do this, as an example here's Tewdric's Bob Jackson;
http://www.reb.co.uk/bobjackson.jpg

The line of the mudguard shows there's plenty of room at the front of the chainstays, yet the brake blocks are no where near the bottom of the slots,  restricting clearance.  If this was a one off I'd think someone had made a design mistake, but I see loads of Audax bikes like this.
 

Re: Help with frame related questions
« Reply #49 on: July 18, 2011, 09:31:42 pm »
Tewdric's Bob Jackson is a different case - it's got horizontal track ends with the wheel towards the front of the adjustment range so as the wheel goes back, the pads can come down in the slots. You can get round this by using long forward facing (and slightly angled) dropouts such as Campagnolo 1010 instead of track ends.

Totally agree about not using the full range of brake adjustment on a bike with vertical dropouts though.