Author Topic: Pedestrian killed by cyclist  (Read 31670 times)

mattc

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Re: Pedestrian killed by cyclist
« Reply #100 on: 09 July, 2008, 03:13:03 pm »
Dipping in late on this: Killing people by negligence should attract a manslaughter charge no matter what vehicle (or none) is involved.  This fine is as offensive as the paltry fines given out to motorists who kill, no more, no less.   >:(
well, I think manslaughter would be harsh in this circumstance as to kill someone by cycling into them is a million-to-one shot, and is far more likely to result in self-harm than using a car (or gun, knife, etc ... )
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---------
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ian

Re: Pedestrian killed by cyclist
« Reply #101 on: 09 July, 2008, 04:03:47 pm »
Dipping in late on this: Killing people by negligence should attract a manslaughter charge no matter what vehicle (or none) is involved.  This fine is as offensive as the paltry fines given out to motorists who kill, no more, no less.   >:(

No, it shouldn't. The girl's death was accidental.



Manslaughter doesn't have to involve intent - a reckless disregard is sufficient. Again, depends on the EXACT facts.

Indeed, but intent is immaterial here. He didn't kill her and he wasn't charged with this.

Had he deliberately aimed his cycle at the girl and hit her, then yes, arguably that should be termed manslaughter. There may not have been intent to kill, but the level of recklessness is such that serious injury could reasonably be anticipated.

But none of the evidence suggests this was the case. The cyclist here made a decision when faced by a group of teens to shout a warning and try pass through or close by them. He may well have had an expectation that they would move. It might not have been an unreasonable expectation. Unfortunately, his decision resulted in him striking one of the them. It seems he had the safer option to swerve around them. Not taking this option was judged to be have constituted dangerous cycling.

You can transpose the situation to a car. Imagine you are driving relatively slowly down an open road with no approaching traffic. A man with a can in his hand is walking along the pavement toward you, staggering slightly. You continue along the road and he steps out in front of you. You have ample time to react and two options: firstly, you can beep him loudly and continue on the assumption he'll step back onto the pavement; or secondly you can take the opportunity of the open road and swerve around him. You take the first option, and on hearing the beep, he steps further out into the road and you no longer have ample time to avoid him. You hit him, he falls and cracks his head and dies of this injury.

I don't think in this case this would be manslaughter either. But given you had the safer option of swerving around him, then this is careless or dangerous driving.

blackpuddinonnabike

Re: Pedestrian killed by cyclist
« Reply #102 on: 09 July, 2008, 04:06:52 pm »
Dipping in late on this: Killing people by negligence should attract a manslaughter charge no matter what vehicle (or none) is involved.  This fine is as offensive as the paltry fines given out to motorists who kill, no more, no less.   >:(

No, it shouldn't. The girl's death was accidental.



Manslaughter doesn't have to involve intent - a reckless disregard is sufficient. Again, depends on the EXACT facts.

Indeed, but intent is immaterial here. He didn't kill her and he wasn't charged with this.

Had he deliberately aimed his cycle at the girl and hit her, then yes, arguably that should be termed manslaughter. There may not have been intent to kill, but the level of recklessness is such that serious injury could reasonably be anticipated.

But none of the evidence suggests this was the case. The cyclist here made a decision when faced by a group of teens to shout a warning and try pass through or close by them. He may well have had an expectation that they would move. It might not have been an unreasonable expectation. Unfortunately, his decision resulted in him striking one of the them. It seems he had the safer option to swerve around them. Not taking this option was judged to be have constituted dangerous cycling.

You can transpose the situation to a car. Imagine you are driving relatively slowly down an open road with no approaching traffic. A man with a can in his hand is walking along the pavement toward you, staggering slightly. You continue along the road and he steps out in front of you. You have ample time to react and two options: firstly, you can beep him loudly and continue on the assumption he'll step back onto the pavement; or secondly you can take the opportunity of the open road and swerve around him. You take the first option, and on hearing the beep, he steps further out into the road and you no longer have ample time to avoid him. You hit him, he falls and cracks his head and dies of this injury.

I don't think in this case this would be manslaughter either. But given you had the safer option of swerving around him, then this is careless or dangerous driving.

Which is why I said depends on the EXACT facts.

Pingu

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Re: Pedestrian killed by cyclist
« Reply #103 on: 09 July, 2008, 04:07:30 pm »
I just did a serach for 'death crash fine' on the BBC News website & now wish I hadn't  :sick:

clarion

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Re: Pedestrian killed by cyclist
« Reply #104 on: 09 July, 2008, 04:08:40 pm »
Going by that, the fine in this case does seem excessive (or all the others too small? :-\)
Getting there...

andygates

  • Peroxide Viking
Re: Pedestrian killed by cyclist
« Reply #105 on: 09 July, 2008, 04:10:05 pm »
Way too many mays and coulds in that to meaningfully respond.

Human life is precious.  Our law fails to reflect this in cases of transport-related deaths: we, as a culture, have become sickeningly accepting that our roads are mincing machines and if you go out there, you should expect peril.   I don't accept that.
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andygates

  • Peroxide Viking
Re: Pedestrian killed by cyclist
« Reply #106 on: 09 July, 2008, 06:02:17 pm »
I see the news has the poor girl's family calling for stiffer punishment.

Maybe this will shine a light on the pathetic level of punishment generally seen. 
It takes blood and guts to be this cool but I'm still just a cliché.
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Pete

Re: Pedestrian killed by cyclist
« Reply #107 on: 09 July, 2008, 06:19:14 pm »
For genuine crimes, yes, of course.  But I am yet to be convinced that the cyclist was entirely to blame for this unlucky young woman's death.  If he had acted differently: yes, if we understand the facts right (which we probably don't): if he had swerved or slammed his brakes; if he had been going less fast at the time (though 17mph is hardly reckless for an experienced cyclist!), she might have survived. Yet people stumble and fall, strike their heads on the ground and die in consequence, without any external cause.

Be that as it may.  I recall, once on my commute (always my commute! That's when things happen isn't it!): I was going past a rather rowdy pub in town (a chav-piss-up-place, definitely one I've never set foot in).  The usual crowd of drunken youths outside, spilling off the pavement: I try to pass wide but am hemmed in by traffic, also it's uphill so I'm going slowly.  One of the chavs youths decides to race me: a silly prancing sort of jog (think: Monty Python silly walk) which he keeps up for a few yards.  In the course of which he brushes perilously close to my handlebar.  He thinks it's a riot, so do his mates, whilst I'm frantically trying to keep clear of him.  In another timeline, another universe, I really ought to have reached around and socked him a good solid right hook in the solar plexus.  But of course I wouldn't: I don't 'do' violence, I'm not that sort of guy.  What if I'd been going faster on the level or downhill, then?  With traffic to prevent me steering wide?

rogerzilla

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Re: Pedestrian killed by cyclist
« Reply #108 on: 09 July, 2008, 06:27:07 pm »
I think the guy needed a better lawyer.  No sane cyclist willingly initiates a crash - there is too much likelihood of personal injury.  The fact that the victim was a girl is the thing that makes me cautious about siding with the cyclist; with a gang of apparently threatening lads in the road, the no.1 rule is not to stop lest they beat you up and take your bike.

Whether he could have swerved is a moot point - are there any independent witnesses?  Was there oncoming traffic or parked cars?  If a cyclist is mown down by a car in the middle of a CTC run, the police tend to discount the evidence of other cyclists because they're insufficiently independent.

I wouldn't be surprised if he appeals.
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

Dave

Re: Pedestrian killed by cyclist
« Reply #109 on: 09 July, 2008, 06:29:12 pm »
I've just noticed this in the Beeb report:

Quote
Each case is kept under continuous review and following correspondence with Rhiannon's family, the case was looked at before and after the inquest into Rhiannon's death, which returned a verdict of accidental death.

Would that have influenced the CPS decision to go for dangerous cycling rather than manslaughter?

ian

Re: Pedestrian killed by cyclist
« Reply #110 on: 09 July, 2008, 06:31:13 pm »
I see the news has the poor girl's family calling for stiffer punishment.

Maybe this will shine a light on the pathetic level of punishment generally seen. 

Punishment for what? It was essentially a tragic accident. To conflate all road deaths into manslaughter serves no purpose. We all make mistakes. We all make bad decisions. Any one of them has potential for a tragic outcome. It doesn't absolve, but equally, a tragic mistake is not manslaughter. A fine may be no consolation for the girl's family, understandably they'd want a stiffer sentence, but in this case it seems appropriate punishment.

That road deaths and vehicular offences are generally treated with undue leniency I won't argue with, and I'd like to see that change. But I think that society as a whole needs to change its view of driving as an inalienable right to that of a privilege tempered with a great deal of responsibility. I won't hold my breath.

andygates

  • Peroxide Viking
Re: Pedestrian killed by cyclist
« Reply #111 on: 09 July, 2008, 06:35:06 pm »
All the moot points are stuff we can't discuss because we lack the information.

I appreciate the "horde of drunks" thing - but a sane cyclist rides as wide as they can around them.  It happens every year on the Dun Run.  But the onus is always on road users to try not to hit peds, always, in any vehicle, no matter how knuckle-dragging and boozed up the zombies are.   

----

Isn't killing someone by mistake "involuntary manslaughter"?

I'm on the side of the girl's family here, just as I'm usually on the side of the dead cyclist as the driver walks out of court with a desultory fine (vide Dunwch, and local splats here with sickening regularity).   

Don't forget that manslaughter doesn't have to carry a custodial sentence.  It can be suspended.  I think it's important that the court recognise that someone was killed by employing a "someone was killed" charge, not a "whoops, silly me" vehicle-operation charge.

It takes blood and guts to be this cool but I'm still just a cliché.
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mattc

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Re: Pedestrian killed by cyclist
« Reply #112 on: 09 July, 2008, 06:55:19 pm »
All the moot points are stuff we can't discuss because we lack the information.

I appreciate the "horde of drunks" thing - but a sane cyclist rides as wide as they can around them.  It happens every year on the Dun Run.  But the onus is always on road users to try not to hit peds, always, in any vehicle, no matter how knuckle-dragging and boozed up the zombies are.   
It's not very difficult to imagine a scenario where a cyclist is FAR more threatened by a group of zombies than vice versa. (I wouldn't be surprised if this also happens often on the Dun Run).

A cyclist is not always in a position of strength vs pedestrians - a car driver (very nearly) always is.

How effective is a stick between a ped's legs? Or stringing piano wire across a footpath?
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

ian

Re: Pedestrian killed by cyclist
« Reply #113 on: 09 July, 2008, 07:23:30 pm »
All the moot points are stuff we can't discuss because we lack the information.

I appreciate the "horde of drunks" thing - but a sane cyclist rides as wide as they can around them.  It happens every year on the Dun Run.  But the onus is always on road users to try not to hit peds, always, in any vehicle, no matter how knuckle-dragging and boozed up the zombies are.   

----

Isn't killing someone by mistake "involuntary manslaughter"?

I'm on the side of the girl's family here, just as I'm usually on the side of the dead cyclist as the driver walks out of court with a desultory fine (vide Dunwch, and local splats here with sickening regularity).   

Don't forget that manslaughter doesn't have to carry a custodial sentence.  It can be suspended.  I think it's important that the court recognise that someone was killed by employing a "someone was killed" charge, not a "whoops, silly me" vehicle-operation charge.



I sorry, but I don't perceive this as being anything other than a tragic accident. The cyclist didn't kill the girl. He made a decision, however, that contributed to her death. This is not manslaughter by any definition, be it gross negligence or otherwise. There was no wanton recklessness, nor could there be reasonable expectation on behalf of the cyclist that his decision would have resulted in this outcome. As I said earlier, if he had intended to hit the girl, then the situation would have been different, but this was evidently not the case.

Picture an alternative situation. I'm driving down the road in my large car. I see a group of teens messing about in front of me, pushing one another into the road. I decide to teach them a lesson by accelerating toward them aggressively. I have no intention of harming anyone, I'm just going to give them a fright, and veer away at the last moment. Unfortunately I misjudge and hit one of them, causing fatal injuries.

There's a categorical distinction. In this example, there's arguably a reasonable expectation that deliberately aiming a high powered vehicle at a group of teens has significant potential to end badly. In these cases, then yes, perhaps manslaughter is the charge. Sadly, I'm unconvinced this would be the charge, but that's another argument. Categorizing all road deaths as a manslaughter does nothing to address this.

Re: Pedestrian killed by cyclist
« Reply #114 on: 09 July, 2008, 07:33:49 pm »
Interesting comment on the girl's father here ... Death cyclist fine angers family - Page 5

spindrift

Re: Pedestrian killed by cyclist
« Reply #115 on: 09 July, 2008, 07:46:23 pm »

Dave

Re: Pedestrian killed by cyclist
« Reply #116 on: 09 July, 2008, 07:54:06 pm »
Interesting comment on the girl's father here ... Death cyclist fine angers family - Page 5

blimey.

This is relevant to the death of his daughter how, exactly?

Re: Pedestrian killed by cyclist
« Reply #117 on: 09 July, 2008, 08:01:07 pm »
Interesting comment on the girl's father here ... Death cyclist fine angers family - Page 5

blimey.

This is relevant to the death of his daughter how, exactly?

I think it is relevant.  Of course, she may have been the sweet young thing represented by the press reports.  But if she came from the sort of family that intimidates and bullies other people, she may - and I stress it's only may - have been the type to find it funny to force someone to fall off his bicycle.


andygates

  • Peroxide Viking
Re: Pedestrian killed by cyclist
« Reply #118 on: 09 July, 2008, 08:15:46 pm »
I sorry, but I don't perceive this as being anything other than a tragic accident. The cyclist didn't kill the girl. He made a decision, however, that contributed to her death.

Hang on a sec.  He rode into her.  She sustained injuries.  She died from those injuries.

What part of "he didn't kill her" am I missing here?
It takes blood and guts to be this cool but I'm still just a cliché.
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rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: Pedestrian killed by cyclist
« Reply #119 on: 09 July, 2008, 08:35:08 pm »
It's a total guess, but I suspect the cyclist didn't mean or expect to hit the girl - he anticipated she would move out of the way, as did the yobs who waylaid me back in the 1980s.  I wasn't prepared to stop as I knew them and I knew they'd have my bike if I did stop.  Like I say, you don't deliberately aim to crash a bike, because it normally hurts you too.

What it boils down to is whether he actually felt threatened and if there was a safer way to escape (turning round is always the worst option, since they're on you before you can move off again).  As I say, were there any independent witnesses, or just the girl's mates?  Yes, he killed her, but there must be a self-defence angle for a clever lawyer.  Maybe the guy will just let it drop and consider £2,200 a fair penalty for what, with hindsight, turned out to be a bad decision.

Incidentally, the father's comments to the press indicate the typical sneering motorist's view of cyclists.  I've been called a "little boy" before by a fat slob in a car, when I was 22 years old and probably taller than him.
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

Dave

Re: Pedestrian killed by cyclist
« Reply #120 on: 09 July, 2008, 08:37:47 pm »
Interesting comment on the girl's father here ... Death cyclist fine angers family - Page 5

blimey.

This is relevant to the death of his daughter how, exactly?

I think it is relevant.  Of course, she may have been the sweet young thing represented by the press reports.  But if she came from the sort of family that intimidates and bullies other people, she may - and I stress it's only may - have been the type to find it funny to force someone to fall off his bicycle.


Innuendo's great, isn't it?

ian

Re: Pedestrian killed by cyclist
« Reply #121 on: 09 July, 2008, 09:00:05 pm »
I sorry, but I don't perceive this as being anything other than a tragic accident. The cyclist didn't kill the girl. He made a decision, however, that contributed to her death.

Hang on a sec.  He rode into her.  She sustained injuries.  She died from those injuries.

What part of "he didn't kill her" am I missing here?

Two cars collide. One of the drivers is fatally injured. Did the other driver kill him?

(On a more relevant note, the inquest returned an accidental death verdict.)

Re: Pedestrian killed by cyclist
« Reply #122 on: 09 July, 2008, 09:19:24 pm »
Innuendo's great, isn't it?

One of my favourite bands.

audaxer

Re: Pedestrian killed by cyclist
« Reply #123 on: 09 July, 2008, 09:43:22 pm »
I sorry, but I don't perceive this as being anything other than a tragic accident. The cyclist didn't kill the girl. He made a decision, however, that contributed to her death.

Hang on a sec.  He rode into her.  She sustained injuries.  She died from those injuries.

What part of "he didn't kill her" am I missing here?

Two cars collide. One of the drivers is fatally injured. Did the other driver kill him?

(On a more relevant note, the inquest returned an accidental death verdict.)

He shouted "move because I'm not stopping".

He hit her, and killed her.

Manslaughter in my books - he sounds like a cnut; just happens he was armed with a bike, not a hammer.

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: Pedestrian killed by cyclist
« Reply #124 on: 09 July, 2008, 10:03:28 pm »
Or self-defence, if he thought he was about to be set upon by a gang.
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.