Author Topic: Sometimes cyclists are the baddies....  (Read 21330 times)

Sometimes cyclists are the baddies....
« on: 26 October, 2011, 01:31:57 pm »
Intolerance of skaters, obv. a subject close to my heart:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/bike-blog/2011/oct/25/cyclists-rollerbladers

I've experienced this also from a few cyclists when skating in Hyde Park.  They are just as bad as the drivers who beep and don't tolerate cyclists on the road.  Skaters are perfectly justified in using a cycle lane.
Your Royal Charles are belong to us.

Regulator

  • That's Councillor Regulator to you...
Re: Sometimes cyclists are the baddies....
« Reply #1 on: 26 October, 2011, 01:51:17 pm »
That article says

Quote
"I'm not saying that I've ever witnessed any wheel-on-wheel hostility, far from it. But when I first got on my rollerblades I was expecting to find a multi-wheeled fraternity of spontaneous high-fives and lycra. And overall we do get on.

We agree on the big issues: we said no to cars, got sick of public transport or decided that walking was too slow. And we have common enemies on every front - bad lighting, cracked pavements and that person who stops in the middle of a cycle lane to send a text message."

and then goes on to pose a whole pile of theoretical problems.  Shoddy journalism... and a complete non-story.

And while we're at it:

Quote
Maybe cyclists think it's unfair that I get an access all areas pass to pavements, alley ways, stairs and cycle paths?

No you don't.  A cycle track/path* is just that - a track/path for cyclists, where cyclists have priority and where pedestrian may be excluded**.  Just like footpaths are for pedestrians.



*The terms tend to be used interchangably. From the tone of the article, I doubt whether the author knows the legal differences.

** See the Cycle Tracks Act 1984, Section 329 of the Highways Act 1980 and the Road Traffic act 1972.

[Edited for clarity]
Quote from: clarion
I completely agree with Reg.

Green Party Councillor

Re: Sometimes cyclists are the baddies....
« Reply #2 on: 26 October, 2011, 02:07:15 pm »
Cyclists have priority over pedestrians?

Secondly, a skater on a cycle path is just another HPV.  I don't think you can argue cyclists have priority over them.
Your Royal Charles are belong to us.

Re: Sometimes cyclists are the baddies....
« Reply #3 on: 26 October, 2011, 02:10:32 pm »
I've come across the odd skateboarder (never blade or rollerskater) on a segregated cycle path and I don't mind sharing it with them as it's got to be safer than skating on the road.

They've always been expectant of cyclists so can't see a problem with sharing it.

Regulator

  • That's Councillor Regulator to you...
Re: Sometimes cyclists are the baddies....
« Reply #4 on: 26 October, 2011, 02:15:20 pm »
Cyclists have priority over pedestrians?

Secondly, a skater on a cycle path is just another HPV.  I don't think you can argue cyclists have priority over them.

On some cycle tracks (in fact on most) pedestrians are excluded.  Most people don't realise that.
Quote from: clarion
I completely agree with Reg.

Green Party Councillor

Re: Sometimes cyclists are the baddies....
« Reply #5 on: 26 October, 2011, 02:19:17 pm »
I'm sceptical of this - could you provide an exact quote and link to the section that bans pedestrians from cycle tracks?
Your Royal Charles are belong to us.

Regulator

  • That's Councillor Regulator to you...
Re: Sometimes cyclists are the baddies....
« Reply #6 on: 26 October, 2011, 02:24:52 pm »
I'm sceptical of this - could you provide an exact quote and link to the section that bans pedestrians from cycle tracks?

See Section 329 of the Highways Act 1980 (referred to above).  It allows the right of access on foot to be removed from cycle tracks - in fact, IIRC, when a cycle track order is made, it requires a positive action to enable pedestrians to use the track (the default is that they can't).

The exact wording is (its from a definitions section):

Quote
“cycle track” means a way constituting or comprised in a highway, being a way over which the public have the following, but no other, rights of way, that is to say, a right of way on pedal cycles [F679(other than pedal cycles which are motor vehicles within the meaning of [F680the Road Traffic Act 1988]] with or without a right of way on foot;

(bold added to highlight relevant words).

You need to read it in the context of the rest of the legislation.

A cycle track is only automatically open to pedestrians if it was put in place on an existing footpath (this was brought in under the Cycle Tracks Act 1984). 
Quote from: clarion
I completely agree with Reg.

Green Party Councillor

Re: Sometimes cyclists are the baddies....
« Reply #7 on: 26 October, 2011, 02:31:57 pm »
So, you actually have no idea about the status of any particular cycle track/path/lane?  I'm almost certain that this is not the case in the Royal Parks, with cyclists required to give way at all times under the Parks code of use.
Your Royal Charles are belong to us.

Biggsy

  • A bodge too far
  • Twit @iceblinker
    • My stuff on eBay
Re: Sometimes cyclists are the baddies....
« Reply #8 on: 26 October, 2011, 02:33:50 pm »
She doesn't "exactly feel welcome in the cycle lane" because cyclists ring their bells.  ::-)  She's just paranoid.

I've cycled in Hide Park when cyclists outnumbered bladers and when bladers outnumbered cyclists, with no trouble, seeing no trouble, and feeling no trouble, except sometimes I'm worried that someone might skate sideways into me when they might not have noticed me, so I flip my dingaling if I have one, or click my Campag freehub if I don't.
●●●  My eBay items  ●●●  Twitter  ●●●

Wowbagger

  • Stout dipper
    • Stuff mostly about weather
Re: Sometimes cyclists are the baddies....
« Reply #9 on: 26 October, 2011, 02:36:52 pm »
I read that article with a view to starting a thread on it but concluded that it was just a space-filler and wasn't worth the effort.

@Reg: for all practical purposes I'd say that pedestrians and skaters are entitled to use cycle paths. You'd never get anything enforced in cases where they are not.
Quote from: Dez
It doesn’t matter where you start. Just start.

Regulator

  • That's Councillor Regulator to you...
Re: Sometimes cyclists are the baddies....
« Reply #10 on: 26 October, 2011, 02:42:09 pm »


@Reg: for all practical purposes I'd say that pedestrians and skaters are entitled to use cycle paths. You'd never get anything enforced in cases where they are not.

Oh indeed, I agree that enforcement is rare - but that's very different to saying that you have entitlements which you may not have.

If the author of the article is going to berate cyclists for imagined slights, then she should at least know what she's talking about.   :demon:
Quote from: clarion
I completely agree with Reg.

Green Party Councillor

Re: Sometimes cyclists are the baddies....
« Reply #11 on: 26 October, 2011, 02:43:51 pm »
She doesn't "exactly feel welcome in the cycle lane" because cyclists ring their bells.  ::-)  She's just paranoid.

I've cycled in Hide Park when cyclists outnumbered bladers and when bladers outnumbered cyclists, with no trouble, seeing no trouble, and feeling no trouble, except sometimes I'm worried that someone might skate sideways into me when they might not have noticed me, so I flip my dingaling if I have one, or click my Campag freehub if I don't.

I'm not surprised that an excellent rider like you never has any trouble, and that's the case for most people I expect.  OTOH I suppose it's all in the way the bells are rung - sometimes the ringing of bells is extremely pushy and aggressive.  It's pretty obvious she means the latter, and describes such a manner of riding too.

For example, should we really be defending c0cks like this rider?  He is the sort of person I'm sure the article refers to, and the sort of person I've had swear at me.  There are loads of great cyclists, but also a minority of silly and aggressive ones who I won't be defending.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/d6-2hUF2kms&rel=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/d6-2hUF2kms&rel=1</a>


And for Regulator:
http://www.royalparks.org.uk/about/cyclingtips.cfm

Quote
Pedestrians have priority over all other users of pathways, even in areas designated and marked for other purposes. You are asked to use these pathways considerately, especially when passing.

I'm not quite sure that says anything about what relative priorities cyclists and skaters have, but I would expect them to be treated similarly since they are both HPVs and tend to move at somewhat similar speeds, more than pedestrians and less than motor vehicles.  I'm also not sure what the law is backing up the code above, but the spirit and intention seem extremely clear to me.  As a skater or a cyclist I'd expect to give way to pedestrians regardless of whether they were in the cycle path or not.
Your Royal Charles are belong to us.

Re: Sometimes cyclists are the baddies....
« Reply #12 on: 26 October, 2011, 02:46:02 pm »
She doesn't "exactly feel welcome in the cycle lane" because cyclists ring their bells.  ::-)  She's just paranoid.

I've cycled in Hide Park when cyclists outnumbered bladers and when bladers outnumbered cyclists, with no trouble, seeing no trouble, and feeling no trouble, except sometimes I'm worried that someone might skate sideways into me when they might not have noticed me, so I flip my dingaling if I have one, or click my Campag freehub if I don't.

Yeah, that's the part of the article that rang false (as it were) to me.  Ringing a bell is far less aggressive than sounding a horn, and tends not to be used as a rebuke because it's not a very effective one. 

Re: Sometimes cyclists are the baddies....
« Reply #13 on: 26 October, 2011, 02:46:23 pm »
I doubt very much the slights are imagined.  There are quite a few skaters who I know personally who've had a bad experience from aggressive and pushy cyclists. It's obvious similar complaints have come from pedestrians going by how much re-work the Parks are doing to defuse the situation.

It's very obvious to me that there are a minority of utter arseholes on bikes - I spend a lot of time in the park and I get to see a lot of cyclists.
Your Royal Charles are belong to us.

Re: Sometimes cyclists are the baddies....
« Reply #14 on: 26 October, 2011, 02:47:14 pm »
Yeah, that's the part of the article that rang false (as it were) to me.  Ringing a bell is far less aggressive than sounding a horn, and tends not to be used as a rebuke because it's not a very effective one.

See the video example above - that was extremely aggressive ringing, and riding.  Sadly it's not that uncommon, although it is a minority of riders who ride like this.
Your Royal Charles are belong to us.

Biggsy

  • A bodge too far
  • Twit @iceblinker
    • My stuff on eBay
Re: Sometimes cyclists are the baddies....
« Reply #15 on: 26 October, 2011, 02:57:11 pm »
It's true that bicycle bells can sound alarmingly loud when you're close to one.  I suppose this can be mistaken for aggression even when none is intended.

With most bells, you can minimise the volume by giving the lever only a gentle push/pull, or mute it by touching the dome.
●●●  My eBay items  ●●●  Twitter  ●●●

Biggsy

  • A bodge too far
  • Twit @iceblinker
    • My stuff on eBay
Re: Sometimes cyclists are the baddies....
« Reply #16 on: 26 October, 2011, 03:04:19 pm »
For example, should we really be defending c0cks like this rider?

No.  I mean I've never noticed deliberate aggression from cyclists towards skaters.  Of course there are too many cocks about that pose a danger to everyone and themselves.  Usually it seems to me to be caused by ignorance and lack of foresight, rather than deliberate aggression
●●●  My eBay items  ●●●  Twitter  ●●●

Regulator

  • That's Councillor Regulator to you...
Re: Sometimes cyclists are the baddies....
« Reply #17 on: 26 October, 2011, 03:08:30 pm »
For example, should we really be defending c0cks like this rider?

No.  I mean I've never noticed deliberate aggression from cyclists towards skaters.  Of course there are too many cocks about that pose a danger to everyone and themselves.  Usually it seems to me to be caused by ignorance and lack of foresight, rather than deliberate aggression

Indeed.  Just as there are cock drivers, there are cock cyclists, cock skaters and cock pedestrians.

To do as the author of the article did and paint all cyclists as being cocks is the sort of shoddy journalism that seems to be beginning to pervade the pages of the Grauniad on a startlingly frequent basis.
Quote from: clarion
I completely agree with Reg.

Green Party Councillor

CrinklyLion

  • The one with devious, cake-pushing ways....
Re: Sometimes cyclists are the baddies....
« Reply #18 on: 26 October, 2011, 03:11:14 pm »
I saw a bloke really holler at a kid on the path through Kensington Gardens the other day - he'd just come in from the road at the gate near the memorial playpark and was riding along Broad Walk (I think that's what it's called) and a kid walking along drifted sideways so he swerved round and proper shouted.  I thought it was a bit out of order (and I'm quite bolshy with my kids about NOT walking on cycle paths/NOT riding on pavements/watching out for other road and path users wherever you happen to be) since it appeared to be a shared use path and was a few metres away from an outdoor cafe and a popular kids play area - surely he must expect to see unpredictable small people there?

However I also saw hundreds of other cyclists (including plenty of boris-bikers and several hipsters on fixies so bling that even I noticed them enough to think I really wasn't keen) and pedestrians and the odd skateboarder although, thinking about it, no skaters.  All mingling in a perfectly non-stressful way.  There certainly didn't appear to be a significant problem to this country bumpkin.

Re: Sometimes cyclists are the baddies....
« Reply #19 on: 26 October, 2011, 03:13:22 pm »
Oh, no, I've spent enough time in the park, seeing thousands of cyclists coming through to easily tell the difference between the majority of great cyclists and the few bad ones.  Excellent cyclists like yourself and Regulator, and I imagine just about everyone on this board, have a distinctive way of ringing that isn't aggressive at all.  It's a ting or three from further back, and usually accompanied with a little slowing down and care.

You guys are just so nice I suspect you find it hard to imagine how badly some cyclists can behave.  The few bad ones are much like the one in the video I linked - multiple loud dinging right up to them, no slowing down, and riding at the pedestrians/skaters/other to make them jump out of the way, often shouting at them too.  Perhaps you come across fewer bad ones too, as you're riding along with the flow, whilst I'm often teaching in one spot so have a flood of cyclists come past, from which the few bad ones are very obvious.

Put it this way, her article rings a bell with my own experience, so I find it much easier to accept the truth of it.  I don't think we should be defending the bad cyclists and pretending that they don't exist, even when I don't like what it says about us as cyclists.  I think we should accept that they exist, just as there are bad drivers humans too.
Your Royal Charles are belong to us.

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Sometimes cyclists are the baddies....
« Reply #20 on: 26 October, 2011, 03:15:51 pm »
It's true that bicycle bells can sound alarmingly loud when you're close to one.  I suppose this can be mistaken for aggression even when none is intended.
You have to be right next to someone, and in a very quiet area. And the someone needs to turn their iPod off.
Some people are deaf, or chatting on the phone, or have iPods set to 11 - the only option sometimes is to keep ringin until they notice you.
So unless you deliberately creep upto someone silently, and THEN ring your bell I can't see any need for offence to ever be taken.

But of course it will be!


Anyhoo, I'm sure we can all agree there are knobs using every transport type. Is that all this thread is about? :(
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Biggsy

  • A bodge too far
  • Twit @iceblinker
    • My stuff on eBay
Re: Sometimes cyclists are the baddies....
« Reply #21 on: 26 October, 2011, 03:24:42 pm »
The article writer is not even complaining of bad cyclists exactly.  She just has a (I think somewhat paranoid) perception that cyclists are aggressive.  She revealed that her feeling comes from a lack of hive-fives and one incident where several cyclists rang bells.  That's it.  No nearly getting hit, nothing like that.

"I'm not saying that I've ever witnessed any wheel-on-wheel hostility, far from it. But when I first got on my rollerblades I was expecting to find a multi-wheeled fraternity of spontaneous high-fives and lycra. And overall we do get on."

"Or perhaps I just need to get over one particular incident. It was my first outing on the cycle path along the Serpentine. It was early in the morning and cyclists, lots of cyclists, were coming at me, in front of me and behind me. I kept getting bells chiming in my direction - and they weren't playing Happy Birthday."

Of course there are bad cyclist, but this article isn't about bad cyclists.  It's about not feeling loved enough.  It's quite a tall order to expect love from strangers all the time.
●●●  My eBay items  ●●●  Twitter  ●●●

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Sometimes cyclists are the baddies....
« Reply #22 on: 26 October, 2011, 03:33:17 pm »
Now you mention, it is shocking just how few cyclists give you a high five these days. The off-roaders started the rot, but the MAMILs are even worse.    >:(
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: Sometimes cyclists are the baddies....
« Reply #23 on: 26 October, 2011, 03:45:18 pm »
I have seen cyclists "kicked off" their bikes accidentally by skaters in the past. To be fair, this was in Chicago, not here, but it could just as easily happen here which is why I'm dead wary about passing skaters without letting them know I'm behind them and coming through.

How does a skater kick a cyclist off their bike?

Skaters don't "walk" along the path with their feet moving backwards and forwards like a runner, their feet come back and out to the sides. If they are moving quite fast, they can counterbalance this as well by leaning out to one side or throwing their arms out. A skater might therefore move in a long S shape with quite deep side kicks. If they use up all of the path doing this, then they can be impossible to pass safely.

If they're wearing headphones as well, then it can be quite irritating trying to find a way past.

Disclosure - I used to skate almost every lunch hour up in Hyde Park

AndyK

Re: Sometimes cyclists are the baddies....
« Reply #24 on: 26 October, 2011, 04:32:54 pm »
Intolerance of skaters, obv. a subject close to my heart:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/bike-blog/2011/oct/25/cyclists-rollerbladers

I've experienced this also from a few cyclists when skating in Hyde Park.  They are just as bad as the drivers who beep and don't tolerate cyclists on the road.  Skaters are perfectly justified in using a cycle lane.

If they're not riding a bicycle/tricycle/'bent, then they should not be in the cycle lane. I am one of those who finds skaters/bladers/skateboarders etc' a bloody dangerous nuisance in cycle lanes, and when passing I WILL ask them 'Where's your bicycle?'

This argument differs quite a bit from motons' 'cyclists shouldn't be in the road' because roads are not called 'car lanes' and are not built specifically for cars.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/l1JIRn0UPyE&rel=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/l1JIRn0UPyE&rel=1</a>