Why don't the British like an improved urban environment?

[AndyK]

Why can't we accept changes for the better without a ton of whinging and whining?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-16839016

Exhibition Road has reopened as a shared space, and I am seeing all the same whines we heard in Southend when our 'shared space' opened. How will I know where the road is? How will I cross the road? It's too daynnnjeruss! Etc...


(I have to say Exhibition Road looks a thousand times better than Marine Parade)

[Ham]

....while cars are slowed by a 20mph speed limit.

That'll do it.

[Jaded]

Good timing. I believe the architect of this died this week. 

[arabella]

It was discussed on the radio.  Blind/partial sight and shared space don't work very well as a combination.  I'm not sure if thats space shared with vehicles only or any open space where there aren't obvious routes that people follow (eg across a space in the middle of a pedestrian precinct).
I've already forgotten what the level of consultation with such people was.
I do remember that corrugated/dimpled paving could have been better placed though to de-mark ped-only and shared spaces.

[Sergeant Pluck]

It's all good except for one single thing - motorists are not made aware that the space is any different to a normal road (edited) that there is any requirement to behave differently, so they see no reason to drive differently. As a cycist I preferred it the way it was before, purely for that reason. I really like the scheme, especially at the South Ken tube end, but on Exhibition Road itself it's crap.

It's a bit like that space in front of Sloane Square tube - there is a kerbless road (Holbein Place) running across there, which pedestrians amble across as you'd expect. Vehicles (especially black cabs) carry on just as they did prior to the changes so there is a lot of conflict. There is no indication or requirement for black cabs to make allowances for other people, so as is the way of black cab drivers, they don't.

It's a bit like when Kensington and Chelsea experimented with making certain one-way streets two-way for cyclists - no-one told the drivers 

[AndyK]

It was discussed on the radio.  Blind/partial sight and shared space don't work very well as a combination.  I'm not sure if thats space shared with vehicles only or any open space where there aren't obvious routes that people follow (eg across a space in the middle of a pedestrian precinct).
I've already forgotten what the level of consultation with such people was.
I do remember that corrugated/dimpled paving could have been better placed though to de-mark ped-only and shared spaces.

I've heard this argument several times from British blind groups, but visually impaired people seem to cope perfectly well with shared space on the continent. Again, it appears it is only in the UK where people go out of their way to oppose improvements to the urban environment.

[Sergeant Pluck]

it is only in the UK where people go out of their way to oppose improvements to the urban environment

It is only in the UK that the authorities are too scared to ask drivers to alter their ways to allow the shared space to work.

[AndyK]

it is only in the UK where people go out of their way to oppose improvements to the urban environment

It is only in the UK that the authorities are too scared to ask drivers to alter their ways to allow the shared space to work.

I accept that is part of the issue, but what I can't understand is why pedestrians, and some cyclists, also complain when the changes are almost entirely to their benefit?

[why1040]

Perhaps because no one actually shows us what the benefits are a lot of the times?

I haven't seen any information on what to do in shared spaces and had I not frequented this forum, I wouldn't really know what they were about!  And if drivers don't change how they behave-whether due to arrogance or lack of information, then they're not beneficial for other road users because they become more dangerous than normal spaces.

[Cudzoziemiec]

Because some of them don't feel the changes are to their benefit.

I'd also add that I think there is more consultation and publicity around these changes in UK than in much of "the continent", where they just draw up a plan and do it, so we simply have more opportunities to whinge about each change.

I'm not sure what I think about "shared space". I've never experienced it as such, the nearest I can think of is Stroud High St, which doesn't have much traffic because it's closed at one end, and various Indian streets where it's the norm to have no pavement. The latter suggest it becomes easier to cross the road, because you're already in the traffic flow, but harder, less pleasant and more dangerous to walk along it, for the same reason. But as I said it's the norm, which makes a huge difference, and also I'm not blind.

[Eccentrica Gallumbits]

I accept that is part of the issue, but what I can't understand is why pedestrians, and some cyclists, also complain when the changes are almost entirely to their benefit?

Because an awful lot of people don't think of themselves as pedestrians and don't value anything which benefits themselves as pedestrians because it inconveniences them as motorists.

[SlowCoach]

The centre of Durham leading from the Market Place to the Cathedral (the site of the UK's first congestion charging scheme - beat London by several months) was converted into shared space last year. Because the streets are narrow traffic has to give way i.e. there are several parts where two vehicles cannot pass. It all used to be controlled by traffic lights to make a single stream of traffic at any one time.

When the shared space scheme was introduced the traffic lights were removed. It was assumed that drivers would treat the area in a considerate manner and use a little common sense. What resulted was a series of incidents such as vehicles getting jammed in shop doorways or disappearing down flights of steps as a result of "car jousting".  The traffic lights have been reintroduced. It would appear that the Council have now acknowledged that the words "driver", "considerate" and "common sense" should not be included in the same sentence.

[Cudzoziemiec]

I don't think it's just that, or quite that simple. I would never describe Indian traffic as showing much "common sense" but it does seem to be relatively "considerate" at least in as far as road rage just doesn't happen despite behaviour which would blow a British motorist's head gasket. How about stopping in a busy single-lane road to buy a coconut from a roadside vendor, holding up all the traffic behind you while you select, haggle the price, pay, get change, vendor cuts the top out and puts in a straw... It's just taken as normal - but considerate driving in this case certainly doesn't mean safe. So I'd say "car jousting" ( ) is just a symptom of a wider inability to cope with others at one's own expense throughout British society.

[Regulator]

I think that the evidence for shared space is fairly robust.  Several places in Germany introduced it and they had just as 'car-obsessed' a culture as the UK.  It took time to bed in but now works very well indeed.  It is common place elsewhere in Europe.

I think changes like this will take time to bed in.  But where it has it makes life so much more pleassant for everyone.

[Efrogwr]

Because an awful lot of people don't think of themselves as pedestrians and don't value anything which benefits themselves as pedestrians because it inconveniences them as motorists.

This goes some way to explaining why car parks are so crap once you get out of the car.

[Freya]

I think changes like this will take time to bed in.

Hmmm I seem to recall that relaxing the licensing hours to combat binge drinking has had time to bed in...

No sign of it working as yet.

[benborp]

Because an awful lot of people don't think of themselves as pedestrians and don't value anything which benefits themselves as pedestrians because it inconveniences them as motorists.

This goes some way to explaining why car parks are so crap once you get out of the car.

This impresses me every time I see a car park that has no pedestrian provision. It is a place for people to leave their cars. Virtually every car will disgorge one or more people. Therefore it must be a place where cars go, just cars.

[Regulator]

Because an awful lot of people don't think of themselves as pedestrians and don't value anything which benefits themselves as pedestrians because it inconveniences them as motorists.

This goes some way to explaining why car parks are so crap once you get out of the car.

This impresses me every time I see a car park that has no pedestrian provision. It is a place for people to leave their cars. Virtually every car will disgorge one or more people. Therefore it must be a place where cars go, just cars.

Debry Hospitals NHS FT please take note.  Your car parks are crap in this context, as I found out yesterday...

[clifftaylor]

Debry Hospitals NHS FT please take note.  Your car parks are crap in this context, as I found out yesterday...

You might have dropped into Pathology to say hello 

[Buzz]

It will work but in order to make it work it will take some pedestrian deaths post change over and some hefty custodial sentences before the message sinks in with drivers that they have to share.

One problem with shared space is going to be that some local authorities will not consult properly on it's implementation and simply try and copy what they see other authorities doing, this will lead to blind and partialy sighted people finding that tactile paving slabs and corduroy paving slabs have been used in the wrong place.

One denotes traffic, the other denotes a step, I have seen plenty of incidences of them being sited incorrectly.

[alexb]

It's all good except for one single thing - motorists are not made aware that the space is any different to a normal road (edited) that there is any requirement to behave differently, so they see no reason to drive differently. As a cycist I preferred it the way it was before, purely for that reason. I really like the scheme, especially at the South Ken tube end, but on Exhibition Road itself it's crap.

Except that there are 20mph signs, the road has gone from 2 lanes in each direction, narrowing randomly to one in places, to a single wide lane in each direction, and visually it looks completely different from other roads.

I use it every day and I much prefer it from the scrum at every "pinch" point that it used to be.

The traffic is slower and it is actually getting slower as well as time goes on. I just wish that they'd pushed all of the parking right up to the North end of the road and left us with the wide open spaces around the Museums that would have made for such great opportunities for open air science activities and al fresco dining.

As for blind/partially sighted people. There was a hell of a lot of consultation, but it was so negative. There were problems before and they seem to have been forgotten. Cromwell Road killed and injured a lot of pedestrians over the years. I "rescued" at least one disorientated blind person who had gotten himself "turned around" and was about to step into the traffic stream thinking that he was about to go down the steps into the subway. His problem was the sheer amount of noise made it really difficult to work out where he was.

It's a bit like when Kensington and Chelsea experimented with making certain one-way streets two-way for cyclists - no-one told the drivers 

Except that they were clearly signposted. No entry sign, with the "Except cyclists" sign underneath. They needed special permission from the DoT to install those signs. They are still open to expanding that scheme too.

No. Overall the scheme looks better and the traffic hasn't come back. It's still all over Queensgate, where it can travel at 30mph, but simply staggers along at 10-15mph, crushed under its own volume.

[Regulator]

Debry Hospitals NHS FT please take note.  Your car parks are crap in this context, as I found out yesterday...

You might have dropped into Pathology to say hello 

Sorry - I will next time I'm up there. 

I was stuck in a meeting at the Medical Education centre.

[The Seldom Killer]

I haven't seen any information on what to do in shared spaces

The necessary information is there, namely the 20mph signs and visual/tactile demarcation between the roadway and pedestrian only sections. These are the only rules that you are obliged to abide by, the rest is supposed to be intuitive and down to the driver to subconciously interpret how they should behave in that area.

It's worth pointing out that there are a number of places where shared space has already happened to a degree without being designed specifically for that. Two examples come immediately to mind. One you're likely to know and the other probably less so.

The one that you are likely to know is Covent Garden. As Southampton Street approaches from the south you'll notice a distinct change in character as it reaches the main area. The surface changes, the kerb diminishes and although there is a barrier it serves more to ensure the sanctity of the no parking regulation than to prevent the unapproved appropriation of car-free space. That's probably a function more of the continuous train of deliveries rather than an expectation that drivers are hell bent on hegemonising everything in site as a driving place. The road continues in the vein until it reaches the end of the main space on Henrietta Street and through all of this space I think it's well accepted that pedestrians will utilise the road space at any time for any reason. It's well bedded in to the local conciousness that any new driver will still more or less abide by the local rules of the place. I'll concede that the barriers aren't wholly conduicive to the free flow of pedestrian traffic, but foot is still more dominant than wheel in the area.

The other one is the Woodshaw Estate in Royal Wootton Bassett. The kerbs and demarcation between road space and pedestrian are quite strong in this place, but the rest of the environment is pretty soft and the near complete absence of road markings and any long lines of sight in a residential area mean that vehicular traffic usually caters very well to what is mostly the dominance of the pedestrian. There's no expectation that people will cross the road at a certain place/time and wait for their turn. Both of these places work pretty well as share space with little to no objection from anyone.

There will always be some drivers that abuse the nature of the place that they are in but I think that the once a local character has been established this will pretty much only be the ones that would also abuse traditional road places. How we deal with these people in society is a different, broader matter, that needs addressing beyond just how they act in one small place.

As for why people moan, I think that once we establish a functional pattern of behaviour, no matter how well or safely it works, we hold tightly to what we know. The reaction to what is quite a significant change will, in some form often follow the five stages of grief and I can see that happening here.

[andygates]

People always moan about change.  Especially if it affects them; especially if it looks expensive.

There is a skill to project management (ptui!) in determining what part of the moaning is this, and what part is actual faults.