Author Topic: And now Ricco is out...  (Read 5559 times)

gonzo

And now Ricco is out...
« on: July 17, 2008, 02:34:27 pm »
Your views?

Is this good/bad for the sport?

Re: And now Ricco is out...
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2008, 02:40:24 pm »
Good... he's an arrogant little c**t, and disliked in the peloton because of it, according to Romain Feillu.

So much for his high haemocrit since childhood. If it is true that there is a test to detect 3rd gen Epo (CERA) then it may knock doping on the head for a while until something new comes out.

It makes you wonder if his team withdrew because they were afraid of other positive results.  If they thought they had a foolproof system they may have all been on the juice.

Re: And now Ricco is out...
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2008, 02:41:20 pm »
It saddens me as Ricco's arrogance in the mountains was great to watch.

Re: And now Ricco is out...
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2008, 02:44:38 pm »
Good - They're still catching them

Bad - They're still there to be caught


Seems the whole Saunier Duval team has pulled out unlike the other two teams involved this year
“There is no point in using the word 'impossible' to describe something that has clearly happened.”
― Douglas Adams

Re: And now Ricco is out...
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2008, 02:44:53 pm »
There is nothing as exciting as a drug-fuelled rampage up the mountains. Possibly one of the reasons why watching Evans is so dull.

Re: And now Ricco is out...
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2008, 02:49:41 pm »
Certainly bad for the sport, or at least how it's perceived.

Eg:

Me: "Can I change the channel so I can catch the Tour highlights?"
Family Member: "Why bother? It's just a bunch of druggies beating each other up on bikes. Watch Big Brother or The Test Match if you want genuine sport."

 ::-)

Re: And now Ricco is out...
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2008, 02:56:47 pm »
I think it's good in the long term. I'd much rather cheats were caught than have it all swept under the carpet like the old days. I don't understand how some still think they can get away with it though. I wish we could get to a stage where the consequences of doping far outweight the consequences of not winning. Teams need to take more responsibility in making sure the riders they employ are clean. How they would go about that I don't know.

I think Saunier Duval pulling out looks very suspect.

Short term and in the eyes of non cyclists it's bad, very bad, especially someone as high profile as Ricco with him winning a couple of stages and all. The press are going to have a field day.

gonzo

Re: And now Ricco is out...
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2008, 03:02:09 pm »
Interesting article written by a "doping expert" on cycling news

Basically, he doesn't reckon that they can accuse riders of being on the 3rd gen EPO stuff.

Presumably the team docs thought the same thing.

ChrisO

Re: And now Ricco is out...
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2008, 03:03:50 pm »
Trouble is it makes me cringe every time the commentators say something like "That's an amazing ride up the Col de Blah , I don't know where he gets his energy from..."

I wonder if it is actually some sort of code for them to indicate who they think is doping.

I feel sorry for all the clean riders too. If you crack on a stage because the pace is being driven by doped riders it affects the overall result.

Schleck followed two Saunier-Duval riders up the mountain with an "amazing" performance from 37 year old Piepoli. Last year Contador gained his winning margin by working with Rasmussen. Would Indurain have won again if Riis not been able to launch dope-powered attacks.


Blah

  • Not sure where I'm going
Re: And now Ricco is out...
« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2008, 03:04:15 pm »
There is nothing as exciting as a drug-fuelled rampage up the mountains.

Exactly. Which is why my overriding sentiment is that it's a shame Ricco, Piepoli and Cobo are out. The same as last year when Rasmussen was kicked out.

I guess we're just waiting for the yellow jersey to build up a bit more of a lead before he's kicked out too.

Blah

  • Not sure where I'm going
Re: And now Ricco is out...
« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2008, 03:05:14 pm »
"That's an amazing ride up the Col de Blah ,

You called? Not sure how to take that one...  ;)

Re: And now Ricco is out...
« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2008, 03:13:21 pm »
From the article linked to by Gonzo:

Quote
We can tell when someone's used it (CERA) but we can't declare them positive.

Hang on, this isn't something like medication for asthma or a cold that could somehow be mistaken for a banned substance. Is it not a chemical designed with the specific purpose of performance enhancement? Surely if they can tell someone has used it that in itself is enough.

Re: And now Ricco is out...
« Reply #12 on: July 17, 2008, 03:22:08 pm »
From the article linked to by Gonzo:

Quote
We can tell when someone's used it (CERA) but we can't declare them positive.

Hang on, this isn't something like medication for asthma or a cold that could somehow be mistaken for a banned substance. Is it not a chemical designed with the specific purpose of performance enhancement? Surely if they can tell someone has used it that in itself is enough.

I think that just means that there is no official WADA approved test for CERA/Micera.

From the article:

"
Well, you see synthetic EPO in urine in the form of bars on an electrophoregram. If a rider's taken Micera, the bars are located in a different place to those you see in a simple containing synthetic EPO.
"

So even though they can see the bars in the place they appear if the rider has been taking CERA/Micera there's nothing they can do since it isn't an official test yet.

They aren't in the place that the EPO test assumes they would be, so the rider cannot be found guilty of taking normal EPO.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

gonzo

Re: And now Ricco is out...
« Reply #13 on: July 17, 2008, 03:22:39 pm »
EPO has a legit medical purpose. Can't remember what it is though.

andygates

  • Peroxide Viking
Re: And now Ricco is out...
« Reply #14 on: July 17, 2008, 03:25:05 pm »
There is nothing as exciting as a drug-fuelled rampage up the mountains. Possibly one of the reasons why watching Evans is so dull.

Quoted for truth, alas.

EPO has a legit medical purpose. Can't remember what it is though.

Boosting red blood cell count for people with low red blood cell count.  Particularly, it's used in post-chemotherapy treatment to get people back up and hearty again. 

Bah, I was enjoying his performance.  I'll get back to rooting for Cav (who may make a record by getting stage wins AND the lanterne rouge!)
It takes blood and guts to be this cool but I'm still just a cliché.
OpenStreetMap UK & IRL Streetmap & Topo: ravenfamily.org/andyg/maps updates weekly.

Really Ancien

Re: And now Ricco is out...
« Reply #15 on: July 17, 2008, 03:28:45 pm »
Your views?

Is this good/bad for the sport?
Sport? surely TdF is a morality play, at its best a young man comes to his physical peak, alienating the strong elders who he needs to enlist to enable him to acheive his potential. He displays the impetuosity of youth and we see if his team can harness his raw energy to win the prize or if his character flaws will let our hero down. I blame the blurring of amateur and professional sport. Tdf should be part of a seperate tier, like WWF on wheels. The UCI should administer pure sport, Maybe this will happen if ASO win the Pro Tour battle. No bad thing in my opinion.

Damon.

Re: And now Ricco is out...
« Reply #16 on: July 17, 2008, 05:39:24 pm »
Good - They're still catching them

Bad - They're still there to be caught


Yep. My thought too.

EPO is used as part of cancer treatment.
Frenchie - Train à Grande Vitesse

Really Ancien

Re: And now Ricco is out...
« Reply #17 on: July 17, 2008, 05:52:18 pm »
Good - They're still catching them

Bad - They're still there to be caught


Yep. My thought too.

EPO is used as part of cancer treatment.

EPO is used when the red blood count is compromised, usually through kidney disease. Anemia in Kidney Disease and Dialysis
If the red blood count is lowered due to cancer treatments, then EPO is the treatment. So if you had been treated for cancer and your doctor said you had to be treated with EPO to bring up your red blood count, then that would be a legitimate medical treatment and allowable under UCI rules. I assume that the level of  Haemocrit would still have to be below the allowable level of 50% but of course this would be stabilised medically and not subject to variations. A strong link with a major drugs company would be useful.

Damon.

LEE

Re: And now Ricco is out...
« Reply #18 on: July 17, 2008, 06:06:58 pm »
The past 12 months I have been reading Bikeradar web site fo rnews and reviews.

It's been a constant barrage of "XYZ found positive and banned" and very depressing.

Last year's TdF (like most of them now) marked a turning point in drug use.  That was it, no more, they'd had enough, never again and so on.

Well, guess what, there's a week and a bit to go and a lab full of samples to be analysed yet.

The previous post was absolutely correct, "I don't know where he gets his energy from", well we do now.

Those poor bastards who do it by training hard are tarnished by association now.  Even if you feel strong it's best to make out you are knackered and try to win by a tiny margin.  Nobody wil lbelieve you if you win by miles now.

I hope that cheat Millar pulls a hamstring as well.  Sure he's clean now but his body was built using EPO.

Che

Re: And now Ricco is out...
« Reply #19 on: July 17, 2008, 06:59:35 pm »
Sure he's clean now but his body was built using EPO.

EPO is not a steroid, and it doesn't build bodies, however, I'm taking your statement in the narrow sense there, so let's rephrase.EPO gives you more RBCs, and it does have out-of-comp advantages, but it also has disadvantages. You don't boost your anerobic threshold, for example, by training with an artifically raised threshold, and then going to comp without it. Cav's an out-and-out sprinter with legs made of tree-trunks. Everything he does that is remarkable is in the anerobic regime. I would be profoundly sceptical of a claim that he's in materially better condition that he could have been, had he never doped.

People cheat. It's a very bad thing. If you think the correct response is a lifetime ban, then fair enough, but that has to be across the board. I don't think it's fair to ask whether a given former cheat may have a material advantage later on, and another not. So, let's not argue Cav's abilities in relation to former use of EPO, but let's ask what the penalty for doping ought to be. If you genuinely believe a lifetime ban to be the automatic response, then so be it. Otherwise, you really must conclude that he's served his time.

David Martin

  • Thats Dr Oi You thankyouverymuch
Re: And now Ricco is out...
« Reply #20 on: July 17, 2008, 07:33:38 pm »
I think you have mixed up Cav and Millar. Otherwise spot on wrt EPO. Steroid use in the off season is an effective way of building condition and recovering from injury. EPO may also help to build condition.

..d
"By creating we think. By living we learn" - Patrick Geddes

Justin(e)

  • On my way out of here
Re: And now Ricco is out...
« Reply #21 on: July 17, 2008, 07:40:10 pm »
So far these have all been 'A' positives.

I would be interested to see how many of those caught admit to doping.  My fear is that we may have a Salem witch hunt on our hands where some innocents are being thrown out with the bathwater.


David Martin

  • Thats Dr Oi You thankyouverymuch
Re: And now Ricco is out...
« Reply #22 on: July 17, 2008, 07:52:01 pm »
So far these have all been 'A' positives.

I would be interested to see how many of those caught admit to doping.  My fear is that we may have a Salem witch hunt on our hands where some innocents are being thrown out with the bathwater.

The standard of work in the Landis case (OK, two years ago now) does lead one to be somewhat concerned. One also gets the feeling that they decided that as there wasn't a WADA test for the new EPO variant that they could chance it. However I don't know if AFLD are bound by WADA rules, so they may take an unapproved (by WADA) test and run with it.

..d
"By creating we think. By living we learn" - Patrick Geddes

chris

  • (aka chris)
Re: And now Ricco is out...
« Reply #23 on: July 17, 2008, 07:52:14 pm »
I'm not bothered whether I watch the tour this year. In the past I used to watch it every night, but given the events of the last few years I just can't be bothered. If we have a few years of drug free no one getting caught for doping / high Haemocrit levels then I may get enthusiastic enough to start watching it again.

Re: And now Ricco is out...
« Reply #24 on: July 17, 2008, 09:12:06 pm »
Good.  Little sod looked to be flying the other day and when I heard his idol was Pantani - I was not surprised.  When are the Italians going to learn?
I hope they catch more and more of the cheating bastards.