Author Topic: Met Police buying mobile device data extraction devices  (Read 6923 times)

Charlotte

  • Dissolute libertine
  • Here's to ol' D.H. Lawrence...
    • charlottebarnes.co.uk
Met Police buying mobile device data extraction devices
« on: May 17, 2012, 04:23:39 pm »
They're going to start routinely slurping data from suspects' handsets using a lovely shiny new toy that's being installed in borough HQs.

http://boingboing.net/2012/05/17/london-cops-want-to-suck-your.html


Quote
The new system being used by the Met is Radio Tactics' ACESO data extraction system across 16 boroughs in the capital.

Ostensibly, the system has been deployed to target phones that are suspected of having actually been used in criminal activity, although data privacy campaigners may focus on potentially wider use.

The deployment is expected to substantially reduce the costs associated with traditional, outsourced methods of processing evidence, which can lead to months of delays, particularly for "low level criminal cases", said the Met.

The ACESO kiosk data extraction system comprises of an intuitive, fully-guided touchscreen desktop data acquisition tool, and will be used by dedicated officers responsible for tackling street crime and burglary.

(Clicky for computerworld article)

What do you think the chances are that this gets illegally abused in the first year of use?
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David Martin

  • Thats Dr Oi You thankyouverymuch
Re: Met Police buying mobile device data extraction devices
« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2012, 04:26:56 pm »
It does require a warrant unless the phone has been seized as evidence?
"By creating we think. By living we learn" - Patrick Geddes

Clare

  • Is home
Re: Met Police buying mobile device data extraction devices
« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2012, 04:39:21 pm »
What do you think the chances are that this gets illegally abused in the first year of use?

I'd be surprised if they got one day's use out of it before anything illegal happened.


Cudzoziemiec

  • Waking up now, put the kettle on!
Re: Met Police buying mobile device data extraction devices
« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2012, 05:02:17 pm »
What do you think the chances are that this gets illegally abused in the first year of use?
If the Met are just buying it, I'd assume some criminal gangs have already been using it for a year or more.

As for the police themselves misusing data they find - just the same as names, addresses and numbers they used to get from good ole paper, like the Filofax.
Days become simply the spaces between dreams, spaces between the shifting floors of time...

Re: Met Police buying mobile device data extraction devices
« Reply #4 on: May 17, 2012, 05:31:00 pm »
OK, so I'm not known for my deep thinking - shallow as a puddle, that's me. 

Which is probably why I don't understand what the issue is here.   Likewise, I don't understand why people object to CCTV and ID cards etc.  If I've done nothing wrong sucking on my phone or techy devices will just prove I spend way too much time here and on the likes of Facebook.  All your CCTV cameras will prove is that I frequently get lost and am sometimes a little unsteady on my feet when leaving a pub.

If, on the other hand, I have done something wrong why not gather evidence against me by whatever means?  If I am suspected of doing something wrong then please gather as much evidence as you like as the more you have the easier it should be to prove I'm innocent.

Or am I being hopelessly naive? Now then, where's my puddle?

[Small splash]




plum

Re: Met Police buying mobile device data extraction devices
« Reply #5 on: May 17, 2012, 05:37:05 pm »
OK, so I'm not known for my deep thinking - shallow as a puddle, that's me. 

Which is probably why I don't understand what the issue is here.   Likewise, I don't understand why people object to CCTV and ID cards etc.  If I've done nothing wrong sucking on my phone or techy devices will just prove I spend way too much time here and on the likes of Facebook.  All your CCTV cameras will prove is that I frequently get lost and am sometimes a little unsteady on my feet when leaving a pub.

If, on the other hand, I have done something wrong why not gather evidence against me by whatever means?  If I am suspected of doing something wrong then please gather as much evidence as you like as the more you have the easier it should be to prove I'm innocent.

Or am I being hopelessly naive? Now then, where's my puddle?

[Small splash]




You're certainly not alone. ID cards, phone taps, internet tracking, do the lot. And the hell with warrants, let the people doing the job make the decisions, not the lawyers. I've got nothing to hide and I'll happily prove it by being the first to sign the consent form. More genetic fingerprinting too, ideally get everyone done at birth. Stick the whole lot on a big computer and compare it with the dna collected from every crime ever committed past and future. Sort this country's problems out overnight it would.

Dibdib

  • Fat'n'slow
Re: Met Police buying mobile device data extraction devices
« Reply #6 on: May 17, 2012, 05:54:59 pm »
OK, so I'm not known for my deep thinking - shallow as a puddle, that's me. 

Which is probably why I don't understand what the issue is here.   Likewise, I don't understand why people object to CCTV and ID cards etc.  If I've done nothing wrong sucking on my phone or techy devices will just prove I spend way too much time here and on the likes of Facebook.  All your CCTV cameras will prove is that I frequently get lost and am sometimes a little unsteady on my feet when leaving a pub.

If, on the other hand, I have done something wrong why not gather evidence against me by whatever means?  If I am suspected of doing something wrong then please gather as much evidence as you like as the more you have the easier it should be to prove I'm innocent.

Or am I being hopelessly naive? Now then, where's my puddle?

[Small splash]

Because they who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.

Edit:  Apologies, that was flippant. But still, I have a right to a private life and I intend for it to stay that way. Ultimately, this doesn't achieve anything the police didn't already have the power to do; all it does is give another tool for bad cops to harass people who don't know their rights a little bit more easily than they could before. What the police needs, IMO, isn't more intrusive powers or gizmos - but more resources.

In short: without reasonable suspicion and a signed court order, there's no way my phone is going near one of these machines.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Waking up now, put the kettle on!
Re: Met Police buying mobile device data extraction devices
« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2012, 06:21:27 pm »
I guess what worries people is not that data gathered this way can be used to investigate crimes, but that dodgy coppers (and others) can eg find out that when you said you were riding the Norfok Normal 400, you were actually at Trixie's House of Tricks, which may not in itself be illegal, but we can make sure Mrs OD never finds out if you just help us with... etc
Days become simply the spaces between dreams, spaces between the shifting floors of time...

Re: Met Police buying mobile device data extraction devices
« Reply #8 on: May 17, 2012, 06:25:15 pm »
Firstly, I haven't been to Trixie's for a long time. Secondly, I flattered you think I can ride a 400. Thirdly, I do nothing wrong no-one can catch me out by whatever means.

Dibdib

  • Fat'n'slow

Re: Met Police buying mobile device data extraction devices
« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2012, 07:16:20 pm »
It's all fine as long as your definition of nothing wrong matches with everyone in powers definition of nothing wrong.
Stropping rocks

Re: Met Police buying mobile device data extraction devices
« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2012, 07:28:28 pm »
To avoid having anyone discover information from your phone, don't use it for these sort of functions.  If you don't use the Internet browser, or GPS, on your phone, then there's little for them to see on the phone.

If you can remember telephone numbers, then you won't need to store those on the phone either, but remember, the moment you call someone, or use an Internet browser (even if you immediately clear the history, cache etc), you've transmitted this information over the air, and with the appropriate level of technology and/or access to the network, that information can be retrieved without requiring any physical access to your phone.

I've got an Ironkey USB drive now, that is cryptographically secure in hardware.  If the wrong password is used too many times, it will physically self destruct, supposedly rendering itself unusable (expensively secure, it's an £80 4GByte USB drive!)  I can think of mechanisms that could be used to access the data, but they're complex, expensive, and difficult, so unless I'm clearly the mastermind of some vast terrorist conspiracy, then anything I store on there is probably safe from anyone accessing it.

Of course, RIPA would allow me to be jailed for refusing to provide the password to it, but they certainly can't trivially gain access to the data.
Actually, it is rocket science.
 

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Met Police buying mobile device data extraction devices
« Reply #12 on: May 17, 2012, 07:59:23 pm »
TBH, this seems like a perfectly reasonable piece of technology for the police to have.  It might actually help them fight crime, and will, presumably, mean that those who have their phone seized for potential evidence and released without charge will actually stand a chance of seeing it again before it's obsolete, which has to be a good thing.

Sure, it'll be abused, but that's the usual police overstepping boundaries issue, not a technology one.  The technology isn't really gaining them anything other than a more efficient way to process evidence.

As they need to have physical access to the phone, it's only really a privacy issue if you're searched by the police or something you want to keep private is on the phone of someone else is searched by the police.  In other words: the standard friendface problem.
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

andygates

  • Peroxide Viking
Re: Met Police buying mobile device data extraction devices
« Reply #13 on: May 17, 2012, 08:50:28 pm »
But when so much of your life is synced, there's a crossover issue: this isn't your phone device, it's potentially your cloud data too.  I'm concerned.

I'm especially concerned because I can see "stop and slurp" becoming a standard and then it's data mining and fishing expeditions and anyone not current normal better look out.  Your phone has contacts with funky ideas of normal?  You're on a list, sonny.  Even though you were stopped for a bald tyre.

I forsee a market for a thermite phone jacket.  Prototyping commences!
It takes blood and guts to be this cool but I'm still just a cliché.
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Cudzoziemiec

  • Waking up now, put the kettle on!
Re: Met Police buying mobile device data extraction devices
« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2012, 09:47:07 pm »
There is someone credible on this forum (not me!) who tells of having been internally examined at Dover or somewhere similar because of having "too many foreign names" in his address book.
Days become simply the spaces between dreams, spaces between the shifting floors of time...

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Met Police buying mobile device data extraction devices
« Reply #15 on: May 17, 2012, 09:55:09 pm »
But when so much of your life is synced, there's a crossover issue: this isn't your phone device, it's potentially your cloud data too.

I think we had all those concerns already.  They don't really need your phone to go fishing in the cloud, it just makes things a bit easier.
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

tonycollinet

  • No Longer a western province of Númenor
Re: Met Police buying mobile device data extraction devices
« Reply #16 on: May 17, 2012, 10:04:58 pm »

You're certainly not alone. ID cards, phone taps, internet tracking, do the lot. And the hell with warrants, let the people doing the job make the decisions, not the lawyers. I've got nothing to hide and I'll happily prove it by being the first to sign the consent form. More genetic fingerprinting too, ideally get everyone done at birth. Stick the whole lot on a big computer and compare it with the dna collected from every crime ever committed past and future. Sort this country's problems out overnight it would.

The problem with that, is that (eg) DNA is not foolproof. It can give false positives. If everyone is profiled, there is a significant to high chance that a completely random innocent person will be false postived for every crime (say false positive rate is around 1 in 30 to 60 million - average 1 false positive per crime). Now you've been id'd at the scene by dna evidence, and as everyone knows, that is foolproof. Off to the slammer for you, my lad.

andygates

  • Peroxide Viking
Re: Met Police buying mobile device data extraction devices
« Reply #17 on: May 17, 2012, 10:28:12 pm »
But when so much of your life is synced, there's a crossover issue: this isn't your phone device, it's potentially your cloud data too.

I think we had all those concerns already.  They don't really need your phone to go fishing in the cloud, it just makes things a bit easier.

I'd say an order of mangitude easier: beforehand they'd have to at least guess what services you use and go ask nicely.  It's the casual harvesting that concerns me, because I'm a distrustful fuck -- growing up with that biased age of consent for bummers made a suspicious, twitchy criminal of me at a tender age, all while I wasn't doing anything wrong.  And big data is easily shared, so heaven forfend if you have an Arabic-sounding name, the bloody Yanks will be glomming you.
It takes blood and guts to be this cool but I'm still just a cliché.
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Wowbagger

  • Dez's butler
    • Musings of a Gentleman Cyclist
Re: Met Police buying mobile device data extraction devices
« Reply #18 on: May 17, 2012, 11:53:07 pm »
OK, so I'm not known for my deep thinking - shallow as a puddle, that's me. 

Which is probably why I don't understand what the issue is here.   Likewise, I don't understand why people object to CCTV and ID cards etc.  If I've done nothing wrong sucking on my phone or techy devices will just prove I spend way too much time here and on the likes of Facebook.  All your CCTV cameras will prove is that I frequently get lost and am sometimes a little unsteady on my feet when leaving a pub.

If, on the other hand, I have done something wrong why not gather evidence against me by whatever means?  If I am suspected of doing something wrong then please gather as much evidence as you like as the more you have the easier it should be to prove I'm innocent.

Or am I being hopelessly naive? Now then, where's my puddle?

[Small splash]

As we know, OD, the Met are whiter than white and none of them have ever entered into dodgy arrangements with criminal gangs or taken bribes and your data is safe with them.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/jfI40CF9_yw&rel=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/jfI40CF9_yw&rel=1</a>
Eating's a serious business. Don't bollocks around wagging your tail.

Re: Met Police buying mobile device data extraction devices
« Reply #19 on: May 18, 2012, 07:32:19 am »
TBH, this seems like a perfectly reasonable piece of technology for the police to have.  It might actually help them fight crime, and will, presumably, mean that those who have their phone seized for potential evidence and released without charge will actually stand a chance of seeing it again before it's obsolete, which has to be a good thing.

Sure, it'll be abused, but that's the usual police overstepping boundaries issue, not a technology one. The technology isn't really gaining them anything other than a more efficient way to process evidence.

As they need to have physical access to the phone, it's only really a privacy issue if you're searched by the police or something you want to keep private is on the phone of someone else is searched by the police.  In other words: the standard friendface problem.

I think Kim's post is entirely reasonable and the text I have highlighted sums up the issue in my view.  What we're saying is that the technology is fine, its the people who use the technology and have access the info it produces who can't be trusted. 

So, what do we do?  Ban the technology on the basis that we can't find anyone trustworthy enough to use it?  Or, ensure the agencies who want to use these gadgets are grown up enough to use what could be very useful tech that could keep us all safer?

I suppose I am being a bit naive and my naivety is based on being white, tall, male, able-bodied, no criminal record, heterosexual, middle class etc.  I can see how someone that didn't tick all those boxes, either by choice or accident of birth might be more wary of this latest development.

Re: Met Police buying mobile device data extraction devices
« Reply #20 on: May 18, 2012, 07:42:36 am »
I've been pondering this from a DPA and such point-of-view. People's business Blackberries may well have emails containing confidential customer data, or projects which have required the signing of Non-Disclosure Agreements. How would that work with this device? Legally with the DPA I am forbidden from passing on customer data, and if I breach an NDA then I can lose my job.

Not that I actually *have* a blackberry, so this is hypothetical...
Have you seen my blog? It has words. And pictures! http://ablogofallthingskathy.blogspot.com/

andygates

  • Peroxide Viking
Re: Met Police buying mobile device data extraction devices
« Reply #21 on: May 18, 2012, 07:47:33 am »
There is good reason to be concerned that the mark will be overstepped.  Compare and contrast tasers: the initial worry was that they'd be used as compliance-enforcement devices -- the easy-to-deploy billy club that leaves no scars -- not as the "firearm lite" they were pitched as.  And lo, it happened right away. 

The agencies who use tech will always be driven to use their tech to the maximum. 

There is an essential tension between the ease with which the police can work and how police-statey the place is.  If you can get locked up for not handing your phone over for slurping at a routine traffic stop: that's way, way too far.  Once the kit is roadside, I'd be staggered if slurps were not coerced with the threat of a night in the cells -- but only to the wrong people. 

I've been pondering this from a DPA and such point-of-view. People's business Blackberries may well have emails containing confidential customer data, or projects which have required the signing of Non-Disclosure Agreements. How would that work with this device? Legally with the DPA I am forbidden from passing on customer data, and if I breach an NDA then I can lose my job.

Good point.  You could try using that as grounds for refusal.  Lol.
It takes blood and guts to be this cool but I'm still just a cliché.
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frankly frankie

  • I kid you not
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Re: Met Police buying mobile device data extraction devices
« Reply #22 on: May 18, 2012, 08:51:06 am »
... when you said you were riding the Norfok Normal 400, you were actually at Trixie's House of Tricks, ...

Hence the invention of the Brevet Card.  Come to think of it, Trixie's rubber stamp might be quite entertaining.
It's not dark yet but it's getting there.

Re: Met Police buying mobile device data extraction devices
« Reply #23 on: May 18, 2012, 08:56:00 am »
... when you said you were riding the Norfok Normal 400, you were actually at Trixie's House of Tricks, ...

Hence the invention of the Brevet Card.  Come to think of it, Trixie's rubber stamp might be quite entertaining.

One evening, in the pub (suffice to say) we came up with the idea of the Sex Shop Audax.  Somehow, the conversation got round to the fact that there is a sex shop by the side of the A1 (I think it used to be a Little Chef).  Apparently (although this may not be true), its open 24 hours.  Some bright spark suggested it would make a good control.  Then, another bright spark (possible me) suggested we design a route where all the controls were sex shops and you had to make a purchase in each as proof of passage. 

I commend this idea to The House.

Valiant

  • aka Sam
    • Radiance Audio
Re: Met Police buying mobile device data extraction devices
« Reply #24 on: May 19, 2012, 07:33:56 pm »
Problem with this sort of system is that it will be abused. You can bet that anyone brought in for anything will have their phones searched. In an ideal world it'd be a good move but sadly we're far from it.
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