Author Topic: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...  (Read 7899 times)

Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
« Reply #50 on: December 18, 2012, 09:02:29 pm »
Garmin is full of  previous dopers, and managed by a self-confessed doper. That means nothing when it comes to judging whether Hejedal doped to win the Giro.

You've been sucked into the tin-foil hat hysteria that is the Cyclingnews forum.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
« Reply #51 on: December 18, 2012, 10:00:27 pm »
Quite possibly I have, but that forum has repeatedly managed to gather various fragments of doping evidence that have subsequently underpinned doping convictions. There are some folk on there with real knowledge and connections.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
« Reply #52 on: December 18, 2012, 10:28:05 pm »
Such as? For the life of me, I can't think of one example where Internet generated rumour has been cited in any doping case. Any of the stuff that had been mentioned there didn't come from there, it was already in the public domain. I heard about 'motoman', for example, maybe 8 or 9 years ago. If I could know about this then anyone could. Those guys on that forum are the wankers Wiggins was talking about, and they are wankers. What is interesting is that the only people on there with real-life knowledge and expertise (as opposed to Internet experts) aren't joining in the mass-hysterics over Sky.

All that stuff you mentioned about Sky does not add up to equal Wiggins being a doper. Like I said, Garmin is stuffed to the brim with doping history. In pro cycling, experience (and the quality that brings)= contact with doping, in one form or another. That accounts for Yates, Geert Leinders, and a fair few on the team roster.


LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
« Reply #53 on: December 18, 2012, 10:59:16 pm »
Maybe you are right but I'll wait a few years to make sure.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
« Reply #54 on: December 18, 2012, 11:11:17 pm »
Quite possibly I have, but that forum has repeatedly managed to gather various fragments of doping evidence that have subsequently underpinned doping convictions. There are some folk on there with real knowledge and connections.

There are also a great many who claim that they 'have sources with inside knowledge' which turn out to be a mate who once spoke to a pro at a race. Plenty come out with a vast array of facts and figures which 'prove' that rider/team X must be doping because 'its obvious'. When challenged they usually retort with something along the lines of 'well if you don't understand I'm not explaining it' or 'you must be so naive'. God help any Brit who believes Sky to be clean, they will be dismissed as believing that no Brits ever dope.
There are certainly some people on there with expert knowledge, usually the ones who give facts and figures with cogent arguments (Jonathan Vaughters for one, whatever his past he understands the science) but the vast majority just regurgitate Google and claim 'its obvious'. 'Race Radio' appears to have credibility wrt sources, but I take 95% of the posts on there as hot-aired ego feeding. Its entertaining though. FWIW I do believe that Sky are clean. If I'm wrong I'm wrong. Big deal, I shan't lose sleep.
Working my way up to inferior.

David Martin

  • Thats Dr Oi You thankyouverymuch
Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
« Reply #55 on: December 18, 2012, 11:18:52 pm »
The cyclingnews forum is populated by some very eloquent and outspoken posters who spin a very convincing line for those who are unused to the construction and evaluation of scientific hypothesis and proof. There are some on there who have real expertise in the field  and who are shouted down by the cheerleaders. It is almost funny to watch the delusion taking hold.
"By creating we think. By living we learn" - Patrick Geddes

Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
« Reply #56 on: December 19, 2012, 06:15:08 am »
It is delusion and mass hysteria. The signal to noise ratio is about 1:1000. Very occasionally somebody has something interesting and informative to say but the rest is the constant shrill repetition of received wisdom and self-generated 'truths' that become a mantra, and to the jerks that post on there are undeniable proof.

You've also got the usual forum pecking order stuff going on with that utter penis who calls himself 'the hog' who's so at one with himself that he doesn't need evidence, because he just knows. You've got the minions squealing his tune, and eagerly piping up with 'so did Lance' examples ,although they didn't spot that Wiggins had started wearing black socks...just like Lance...incontrovertible proof in my eyes, and possibly even a secret signal from Wiggins to let us know.

Very occasionally, some of them let slip the real motivation behind their Sky phobia, with hatred of Wiggins hairstyle, or tastes in music and well, just hatred. No coincidence that many of them are Australians, bitter at having their predominance usurped by the weedy and sportingly useless English.

Wiggins was spot on about them.

TimC

  • Bike pilot
Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
« Reply #57 on: December 19, 2012, 08:07:47 am »
'Isn't even a whisper' is overstating the situation. You have a DS who was on a doping team, a team doctor from Rabobank, several teammates who had previously doped, a team that was easily strong enough to control the race from end to end (despite being comprehensively blown away in previous years) and a rider who was superstrong throughout the season at an age when riders would usually start thinking of retiring due to waning powers.

Doesn't any of that give you even the slightest concern? Obviously not, so enjoy watching the racing. I'll hold off for a few years, giving some time for rumours and any corroborating evidence to surface.

I will. And if it subsequently turns out that some of the participants were cheating, I will still have enjoyed the racing - as I did in the days of Armstrong, Ulrich and Pantani. You can't take that away from me. You, on the other hand, will no doubt celebrating your self-righteousness having enjoyed none of the racing. Remind me; why do you watch it?

Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
« Reply #58 on: December 19, 2012, 08:24:34 am »
Forgot to say, the biggest giggle about 'The Clinic' is that they actually believe that they are at the forefront in the fight against doping.

It doesn't occur to them that the only reason that they are provided with their own sub-forum is to keep all the crap in one place, like a toilet bowl.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
« Reply #59 on: December 19, 2012, 08:30:53 am »
TimO, I occasionally still watch because I am an engineer and I like to know how things work. I'm having real problems in working out how a rider with generally poor stage racing and climbing results wins every stage race from the beginning of the year. Peaking multiple times a year or maintaining peak performance for months at a time is not normal.

DM, weren't you the fellow who correctly identified on the previous place that Landis' positive result was a stitch-up? His performance was still a joke and pretty obviously so. The truth eventually came out.

Flatus, yes the signal to noise on The Clinic is even worse than here but there is some truth buried in there. How do you explain Mick Rogers? He was going to Freiberg and his good performances came when he was at T-Mobile and now again at Sky. He left Sky very late this year, too late to transfer his points to the new team. Any thoughts?
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
« Reply #60 on: December 19, 2012, 09:06:51 am »
Sorry, but how can Rogers dodgy past be cited as evidence of Wiggins doping? The only way it could be is if you are implying there is a team wide system of doping. That Rogers has jumped before being pushed runs contrary to that.

As for Wiggins, you've said he won 'every stage race'.  He didn't. By all means subject the guy to some scrutiny, but if you are going to question his integrity at least bother to find out some facts first. Oh, and I mean actual facts, not Clinic 'facts'.

citoyen

  • Cat 6 Racer
Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
« Reply #61 on: December 19, 2012, 10:54:57 am »
I'm having real problems in working out how a rider with generally poor stage racing and climbing results wins every stage race from the beginning of the year. Peaking multiple times a year or maintaining peak performance for months at a time is not normal.

You're being disingenuous. He didn't really switch his focus to road racing until 2009, riding mostly as a domestique or concentrating on the track until then, so you can't really consider his performances in those years as being meaningful indicators.

In 2009, when he shed 6kg of trackie muscle and really turned his attention fully to road racing for the first time, he finished 7th, 5th and 10th in three of the biggest mountain stages of the Tour de France, and came fourth third overall. He had a stinker in 2010 but there are plenty of well-documented reasons to explain that. In 2011, he won the Dauphiné (making mincemeat of Evans in the process) and looked like a strong contender for the Tour until his crash.

An evaluation of his wins in 2012 also needs to take into account the absence of Contador and the relative performance of his other main rivals - Evans, Basso and Schleck were all major disappointments throughout the year. Hesjedal might have made life tougher for him in the Tour if he hadn't crashed out. The only real competition he had was Nibali, who suffered from having poor team support. There was no Joaquim Rodriguez either. He might have had more competition from BMC if they'd decided to back Tejay instead of Evans.

Not to mention the fact that he won Paris-Nice and the Tour de Romandie without being anything near his peak.

d.

Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
« Reply #62 on: December 19, 2012, 11:06:00 am »
...wait a few years....

How are the w, a, i, t, f, e, y, r and s keys on your keyboard? I'm amazed they still work the amount of use they get...
Those wonderful norks are never far from my thoughts, oh yeah!

David Martin

  • Thats Dr Oi You thankyouverymuch
Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
« Reply #63 on: December 19, 2012, 12:09:36 pm »
DM, weren't you the fellow who correctly identified on the previous place that Landis' positive result was a stitch-up? His performance was still a joke and pretty obviously so. The truth eventually came out.

Yes. I didn't say he didn't do it but I did say that the data did not support the conclusions and that the due process had not been followed. It was of considerable interest to me as I analyse mass spectrometry data for fun and profit.

We could take apart Wiggins performance, the way that team sky rode and put this in context if you wish (hint, calculating VAM over a climb where two reknowned climbers are attacking each other in traditional style will not give results that are consistent with 'tempo' riding of a well drilled team) . None of it hits the incredulity of the postal era - the numbers don't add up. The data analysis abilities of most of the posters in the clinic are best described as 'clutching at straws' or 'drunks and lampstands'.

There are two other people on there with a proper science background, both physiologists and they are most certainly not in the shrill pigsty.
"By creating we think. By living we learn" - Patrick Geddes

Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
« Reply #64 on: December 19, 2012, 02:31:21 pm »
...wait a few years....

How are the w, a, i, t, f, e, y, r and s keys on your keyboard? I'm amazed they still work the amount of use they get...

Totally agree!

Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
« Reply #65 on: January 02, 2013, 01:08:30 pm »


Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
« Reply #67 on: January 02, 2013, 01:21:43 pm »
As is this.

It appears Wiggins was neither old nor quick when compared
with the other winners on what was considered the perfect course for him.

Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
« Reply #68 on: January 02, 2013, 06:27:05 pm »
This is interesting.
Kimmage unconvinced by Sky and Wiggins

Well, there is another angle to this isn't there...

It's his job.

Or rather it was his job. He's currently without work and in a bit of a panic as to what to do. I suppose he needs to get himself a bit of exposure and back in the headlines given that the Armstrong cash-cow has dried up.

He thought he was going to be the embedded reporter with Sky during the TdF this year, but Wiggins said no.  Who can blame him...he had enough on his plate.

I think Kimmage might just be a tad annoyed with Sky, and in particular Wiggins, after they have pulled the rug out from under his feet.

Sky do have a few questions to answer convincingly, mind you, not least the Leinders stuff. Hard to believe they didn't know who he was before they appointed him.  Kimmage has the easy position though.....he can never be proved wrong because there will always be people like LWaB who say "just wait another ten years"

We'll see. If the parallel's with Armstrong are apt then we can start to expect the first credible whispers in the coming year.

Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
« Reply #69 on: January 02, 2013, 10:30:57 pm »


He thought he was going to be the embedded reporter with Sky during the TdF this year, but Wiggins said no.  Who can blame him...he had enough on his plate.

I think Kimmage might just be a tad annoyed with Sky, and in particular Wiggins, after they have pulled the rug out from under his feet.


Don't know if it makes any difference but it was 2010 when Kimmage was supposed to be embedded with Sky and BW pulled the plug. There was no question of his tagging along with Sky in 2012.  More's the pity. 

What's happened with his counter-suit against UCI?  Legal cogs still grinding slowly into place?

LEE

Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
« Reply #70 on: January 02, 2013, 10:49:29 pm »
Geert Leinders will haunt Dave Brailsford for ever now, and, by association, Wiggo.

A truly bad error of judgement to employ him, guilty of involvement in doping or not.

Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
« Reply #71 on: January 03, 2013, 09:28:20 am »
I've just finished Wiggo's latest book. He talks about Kimage, they don't really get on that well. Brad thinks that every interview with Kimage is always being twisted around by Kimage to the subject of doping and it it just gets boring and irritating for the interviewee.
I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that.

Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
« Reply #72 on: January 03, 2013, 09:40:53 am »
Kimage's main issue seems to be that Sky riders didn't have a bad day.  That was the whole point of their plan for the TdF. There bike computers told them at what vmax they were riding at and they stuck to a target value worked out previously specifically so they didn't have a bad following day. That's way they were criticized for lack of panache, it was all very cold and calculated. Its also why Wiggo was cross with Froome when he attacked on stage 11, doing so was going well into the red and would jeopardize the next day.
I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that.

Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
« Reply #73 on: January 03, 2013, 11:31:29 am »
Why stop at Wiggo, let's condem the whole of the Sir Dave's men and women, afetr all, they are so dominant!

I prefer to believe, and afetr reading Wiggo's latest book I can understand how they have revolutionised the approach to cycling without the use of performance enhancing substances etc.

Re: Wiggo ain't going gracefully...
« Reply #74 on: January 03, 2013, 11:49:29 am »
The aesthetics of Wiggo are interesting, he's an interesting man, riding in a dull and systematic way. We don't have pictures of Brad buckling swash on some big climb, we have footage of him swearing on stage, standing on a podium or playing guitar.
The actual work of cycling is reduced to a statistical exercise, which can be quite pleasing to techno-freaks.
Brad is actually quite good at carrying on the tradition of Tommy Simpson, he's a good mimic, and he's become a modern version of 'The Gentleman'.
If you look at the history of time-trialling in the UK, the sole anecdote to emerge from it is Beryl Burton giving Mike McNamara a licorice allsort. So Brad's off-bike exploits are good for cycling, because it's difficult to generate much excitement from what he does on the bike.