Author Topic: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?  (Read 76662 times)

CrinklyLion

  • The one with devious, cake-pushing ways....
Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #25 on: January 28, 2013, 04:55:34 pm »
Another winner this weekend - Cauliflower Mash. It's more like couscous in texture, but really filling - masses of fibre, and very low carb.

I know nowt about all that theory - but on the recipe front, someone once recommended stir fried cauli (either shredded or grated, can't remember) as a rice replacement for card avoiders.  Apparently it is delicious.

Andrew

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #26 on: January 28, 2013, 04:59:12 pm »
My reading to date has suggested to me that about 25% of the brain's energy needs must come in the form of glucose, the other 75% can come from ketones (once adapted). The missing 25% is provided by the liver, which converts dietary protein into glucose through gluconeogenesis.

Thanks for the detail, I knew it were summat like that.

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Another winner this weekend - Cauliflower Mash. It's more like couscous in texture, but really filling - masses of fibre, and very low carb.

Agreed. It's a regular in this household. Used as a rice substitute, it works well with chilli sin carni, veg curries, etc.

Pippa

  • Audax and marathon widow
    • 2016 Tour Blog
Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #27 on: January 28, 2013, 04:59:57 pm »
It is interesting to hear how different people get on with the low carb approach. I've tried it a couple of times and both times lost weight but felt absolutely awful - dizzy and run down and generally a bit crap. My dad OTOH gets on with it really well and has stuck to it for protracted periods of time (until he is tempted away by a roast potato). Anyway, there was an article in the guardian today exploring the use of lab fitness tests to determine what sport you are most suited to. The following comment caught my eye:

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I also turn out to be a carb burner rather than a fat burner, which I'm taking as licence to eat more toast.

I wonder if this might explain why for example I don't get on very well with low carb but my dad does.....? Unfortunately the article didn't seem to expand on the concept....

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #28 on: January 28, 2013, 05:13:04 pm »
It is interesting to hear how different people get on with the low carb approach. I've tried it a couple of times and both times lost weight but felt absolutely awful - dizzy and run down and generally a bit crap. My dad OTOH gets on with it really well and has stuck to it for protracted periods of time (until he is tempted away by a roast potato). Anyway, there was an article in the guardian today exploring the use of lab fitness tests to determine what sport you are most suited to. The following comment caught my eye:

Quote
I also turn out to be a carb burner rather than a fat burner, which I'm taking as licence to eat more toast.

I wonder if this might explain why for example I don't get on very well with low carb but my dad does.....? Unfortunately the article didn't seem to expand on the concept....

Ah - Gatorade Sports Science. Purveyors of sugary sweet things for athletes. The cynic in me thinks they are never going to recommend zero/low carbs for athletes.

The "feeling dreadful" thing is common. Low-carb flu. We all have two chemistry sets to play with - one works on carbs, the other on fat. Switching from one to the other as a primary fuel source takes a few days/weeks to accomplish. One set of enzymes has to be shelved and another brought into action. While that's going on, you can feel like crap - and certainly, you're unlikely to get any PBs in the gym.

hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #29 on: January 28, 2013, 05:37:05 pm »
Most of us use both types of chemistry, switching to whatever's available.
I've not personally resorted to a ketogenic diet because I'm losing weight S-L-O-W-L-Y on a 'less of most things, most of the time' diet.

fboab

  • It's a fecking serious business, riding a bike
Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #30 on: January 28, 2013, 06:00:28 pm »
Any suggestions for vegetarians in your paleo diet books?
Forget it.
Hunter-gatherers mostly hunted. Vegetariansim is a recent morally based fad, nothing to do with what the body needs/is evolved to digest.

(I'm paraphrasing).
I remain sceptical as to the long-term health benefits of the ketogenic diet.
We're all going to die of something.
I don't think eating lots of fat and not a lot of carbohydrates is any less or more bad than eating a lot of carbohydrate and not a lot of fat.
TSS is not Total Sex Score, Chris!

clarion

  • Tyke
Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #31 on: January 28, 2013, 06:02:13 pm »
That's a paraphrase of nonsense, then, I'm afraid.  Silly unscientific book, I have to conclude.
Getting there...

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #32 on: January 28, 2013, 06:15:03 pm »
On my brief reading of info about the diet, one slight disadvantage is a huge increase in cholesterol in the body. Not a problem for some, but for those coming from genetic history with a predisposition to cholesterol problems, I think I'd give this diet a miss.
<i>Marmite slave</i>

fboab

  • It's a fecking serious business, riding a bike
Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #33 on: January 28, 2013, 06:19:58 pm »
That's a paraphrase of nonsense, then, I'm afraid.  Silly unscientific book, I have to conclude.
They're big on inuits, native american tribes of various descriptions and african nomads- all of whom eat masses of meat.

Having said that, gathering enough nuts, vegetables and fruits takes a long long time. 'We' didn't eat much carbs till we got agriculture. About the same time we developed writing, reading and all those other modern fads. There's also a seasonality- we eat fruits in autumn>the carbs make us fat>we need the fat for the winter.

People (generally) aren't vegetarian because they think it's healthier. They're vegetarian for moral reasons, and use 'it's healthier' as an after the fact justification. We've "done" vegetarianism before, here so I'd rather this thread didn't get sidetracked.

On my brief reading of info about the diet, one slight disadvantage is a huge increase in cholesterol in the body. Not a problem for some, but for those coming from genetic history with a predisposition to cholesterol problems, I think I'd give this diet a miss.
I don't know where you get that from, the evidence I've seen is that it lowers cholesterol? Although, obviously, from biased sources.
TSS is not Total Sex Score, Chris!

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #34 on: January 28, 2013, 06:41:35 pm »
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In adults, common side effects include weight loss, constipation, raised cholesterol levels

Probably because

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Besides its role in the synthesis of ketone bodies, HMG-CoA is also an intermediate in the synthesis of cholesterol.
<i>Marmite slave</i>

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #35 on: January 28, 2013, 06:46:02 pm »
It's 72g of glucose that the brain needs daily. But the body will break down fats into ketones for that. That's how we survived the ice age when there was'nt any carbs. What I was saying is that there are no carbs that are essential in the diet.

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #36 on: January 28, 2013, 06:58:34 pm »
On cholesterol specifically:

http://jn.nutrition.org/content/135/6/1339.full

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Prospective studies indicate that VLCDs improve the lipoprotein profile independently of weight loss. Although not as effective at lowering LDL cholesterol (LDL-C), VLCDs consistently improve postabsorptive and postprandial triacylglycerols (TAGs), HDL cholesterol (HDL-C), and the distribution of LDL-C subfractions to a greater extent than low-fat diets.

Most of the stuff I've read so far suggests a low-carb diet improves all the markers of metabolic syndrome; namely lipid analysis (HDL up, Triglycerides way down, LDL particulate size changes), lower blood pressure (more harmonious relationship with sodium), lower body fat, improved insulin sensitivity,

and also shows improved cognitive capacity (no more 4pm dozies) and improved endurance at moderate work-rates.

If you're getting constipated, you're doing it wrong; more fibrous veggies, more fat, less protein and much more water.

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #37 on: January 28, 2013, 07:02:06 pm »
Just throwing in a curveball. I'd much rather 7 teaspoons of sugar than a man made chemical called aspartame to sweeten!

What I am beginning to discover is that a lot of fat alternative products end up containing man made chemicals that even flies won't touch! There was an interesting docu on TV that had a bowl of butter and low fat spread on a garden table. Over 24 hours flies and all sorts went for the butter. Nothing went for the low fat spread!

It's an interesting thread this. Although not necessarily appropriate timing for me as I destroy an 8oz burger with chips and a pint of hobgoblin.

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #38 on: January 28, 2013, 07:04:38 pm »
Just throwing in a curveball. I'd much rather 7 teaspoons of sugar than a man made chemical called aspartame to sweeten!

Well quite. We're lucky - at least in Europe we (mostly) escaped the metabolic nightmare that is High Fructose Corn Syrup.

I eat small amounts of sucralose. It's sucrose, but with chlorine added which has the effect of distracting the gaze of the digestive tract, which is pretty sure it's sucrose, but can't be 100% sure, so leaves it un-processed.

I believe, if I were a lab rat, it might be harmful to me if I was force-fed a kilo of it a day.

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #39 on: January 28, 2013, 07:08:00 pm »
All diets of whatever proportion of nutrient bias require at some point a reduction in overall calories. The big plus about a low carb approach is that you don't feel hungry all the time. For a lot of people the hunger pangs can be a deal breaker.

fboab

  • It's a fecking serious business, riding a bike
Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #40 on: January 28, 2013, 07:51:37 pm »
Unlike Chris I won't do fake sugar. Except in ginger beer. And when I'm making crack cocaine raspberry cheese-fake-cake for him.

I think part of my problem in weight loss is a sweet tooth, a carb craving, and eating fake sugar wont help that.
TSS is not Total Sex Score, Chris!

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #41 on: January 28, 2013, 08:22:51 pm »
I just like to add that I'm not automatically against the diet, just think that all things need considering
<i>Marmite slave</i>

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #42 on: January 28, 2013, 08:53:25 pm »
That's a paraphrase of nonsense, then, I'm afraid.  Silly unscientific book, I have to conclude.
They're big on inuits, native american tribes of various descriptions and african nomads- all of whom eat masses of meat.

Having said that, gathering enough nuts, vegetables and fruits takes a long long time. 'We' didn't eat much carbs till we got agriculture. About the same time we developed writing, reading and all those other modern fads. There's also a seasonality- we eat fruits in autumn>the carbs make us fat>we need the fat for the winter.....
Writing & all that came much, much later. There was a longer time of agriculture without writing than there has been of writing.

Agriculture wasn't a sudden invention, BTW. It was a gradual process of encouraging plants we liked eating, at the expense of others, which eventually turned into planting them.
"A woman on a bicycle has all the world before her where to choose; she can go where she will, no man hindering." The Type-Writer Girl, 1897

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #43 on: January 28, 2013, 10:29:46 pm »
I just like to add that I'm not automatically against the diet, just think that all things need considering

I don't think boab and I are here to defend it necessarily - we're each conducting N=1 experiments based on some challenging thinking from Gary Taubes and others.

I find it very hard to understand why we evolved such a crappy fueling scheme as the carbohydrate/insulin/glycogen model - that at best gives you a few hours of activity before you have to eat again, or fall over - whilst sidelining a much more efficient, cleaner, and longer lasting fuel supply - in the lipid/ketone model.

Which leads me to think - perhaps our fixation with carbohydrate has in fact flipped us all around. That in fact, we evolved to primarily use the lipid/ketone system and subsist on minimal quantities of carbs (berries, nuts and leafy stuff - perhaps tubers), and our carb/insulin/glycogen fuel supply is actually an emergency supply for rapid response such as flight or fight, which requires fast acting energy input that only anerobic chemistry (glycogen) can provide.

The large quantities of carbs in the typical western diet has to be processed by insulin. If it's not used immediately for fuel, it's stored in the fat cells for later, and we get a bit fatter. Whilst this is going on, stored fat is preserved and you are fueled mainly  by dietary fat and glycogen.
If you've got obese, and want to lose body fat, you need to sideline insulin as much as possible, so as to free up the mobilisation of stored fat. Several forms of diet do this indirectly - even just cutting calories does, because proportionately you cut more carbs than anything else. Removing sugar and refined carbs also helps, as these give the biggest insulin response.

The problem with cutting calories but still eating a high carb diet is, you get hungry. Equally, if you exercise more - you get hungry. I've definitely found my appetite suppressed on a low carb diet, so it's much easier to run a calorie deficit. At the same time, my blood sugar is stable (5.0mmol/L - nearly all the time, it's the same) and insulin is sidelined - except for processing a little glucose from my liver, to my brain.

And as of yesterday - it would appear I can ride a 200km winter audax on next to no carbs too.

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #44 on: January 28, 2013, 11:54:02 pm »
In a time when we didn't have heating, quick energy sources that either got used or stored as fat are a great thing.
<i>Marmite slave</i>

simonp

  • Omnomnomnipotent.
Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #45 on: January 29, 2013, 01:24:05 am »

Re: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #46 on: January 29, 2013, 07:44:02 am »


http://weightology.net/?p=265

You don't have to look far to find Taubes haters. I'm not saying he's right. But he prompted me to think more about the problem.

clarion

  • Tyke
Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #47 on: January 29, 2013, 07:48:50 am »
Haters?  Odd choice of word.  It was a reasonable critique.
Getting there...

Re: Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #48 on: January 29, 2013, 08:05:24 am »
Haters?  Odd choice of word.  It was a reasonable critique.

Poor choice of words. Taubes is a science journalist. He looks for inconsistencies in research - and quite possibly makes his own as the critique alludes to - and this doesn't win you any friends.

I think there's a lot of mileage in what  Taubes has to say. It's why I'm experimenting.

ETA: By the way, that critique is of the book 'Good Calories, Bad Calories', which I haven't read, so I'm not in a position to know if it's a good analysis or not.

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #49 on: January 29, 2013, 08:44:57 am »
Haters?  Odd choice of word.  It was a reasonable critique.
Very reasonable. On first glance I was preparing to dismiss it (I have an irrational dislike and distrust of overly polished and smug looking young americans). But it is a reasoned and reasonable article, carefully backed by cross-references to fact sources.

This, particularly, is an interesting chart:
<i>Marmite slave</i>