Author Topic: AUK Website and online entry  (Read 53606 times)

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: AUK Website and online entry
« Reply #425 on: 05 March, 2013, 06:13:46 pm »
As for the GPX issue, any new event requires the organiser to submit a google map file of the event, this is much harder that actually generating a GPS file. Generating the google maps file can be a bit daunting the first time.
Is this right?  :-\

I've just tested:
Clicked on "duplicate event" - which is how I've started 90% of my events!
click "main edit" -> "setup controls"
... and then I have the much-loved old list of text-boxs
"C1; Builth  80km Ctrl
C2: Dolgellau 177km Info
etc ....

Can't see a "Google maps link" or similar. Am I doing it wrong?

M
That's because (in AUK's common sense system) you're duplicating an established event, not introducing a new event.
But it's the simplest way to create a new event - and I think is the recommended way!

So it's far from true that you need a google thingy to create a new event. As far as I can tell ...
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Manotea

  • Where there is doubt...
Re: AUK Website and online entry
« Reply #426 on: 05 March, 2013, 06:40:50 pm »
But it's the simplest way to create a new event - and I think is the recommended way!

So it's far from true that you need a google thingy to create a new event. As far as I can tell ...
No; duplicating an existing/previous route is recommended as the simplest way to register a new event on the AUK website event planner.

AFAIAA the process of gaining approval for a *new event/route* is a paper based process progressed through the regional event sec (yes, the process needs rationalising), and at some point this will involve somebody entering the controls into googlemaps to verify the distance, and it might as well be the event organiser, after all, they know where the controls are.

I have much the same issue/process with DIY Perms, requesting riders to provide a googlemap link showing the controls with their route application. This nails the distance issue before I get involved and enables me to automate the validation process. I provide a link offering guidence on how to use googlemaps - and why - when riders purchase Brevets, and most riders get it straight off, even *new* DIYers. Only one rider has reported any difficulty with this and that was mostly because they were registering loop-the-loop AAA routes and they've since got the hang of it. Meanwhile, I'm happy to support those few riders who are continuing to make postal entries, which just leaves those who haven't gotten around to reading the guidence notes and need a bit more, huh, care. It would be ungracious to name names though, mattc. 

London Edinburgh London

Re: AUK Website and online entry
« Reply #427 on: 05 March, 2013, 06:56:28 pm »
IMO, the pressure was by stealth, following a questionaire to members a couple of years ago.

The 'What can we do to surprise and delight?' marketing thing was crux of the whole questionaire.

You are wrong. I resent your tone too. The questionnaire was to try and establish why people were riding longer distances less. I should know too - I wrote the scope for the questionnaire as well as the questions.

Re: AUK Website and online entry
« Reply #428 on: 05 March, 2013, 07:02:55 pm »
IMO, the pressure was by stealth, following a questionaire to members a couple of years ago.

The 'What can we do to surprise and delight?' marketing thing was crux of the whole questionaire.

You are wrong. I resent your tone too. The questionnaire was to try and establish why people were riding longer distances less. I should know too - I wrote the scope for the questionnaire as well as the questions.

I apologise.

London Edinburgh London

Re: AUK Website and online entry
« Reply #429 on: 05 March, 2013, 07:06:56 pm »
Nice one, J.  :thumbsup:

Bianchi Boy

  • Cycling is my doctor
  • Is it possible for a ride to be too long?
    • Reading Cycling Club
Re: AUK Website and online entry
« Reply #430 on: 05 March, 2013, 07:36:56 pm »
I have just been to the Cyclosport.org website and spent some time reviewing the events. I assume these are all well organised, they certainly look it. They all have halls massive facilities, catering, timing chips and stuff like that, oh and hundreds of entrants. All the ones I reviewed appeared to either ran by companies or charities (companies who get people to volunteer) all the club ones appear to have disappeared.

The reason I mention this is that I do not understand the model that is being suggested for running larger events. On the one hand we have events organised by volunteers and the other ran by companies (I would include LEL in that) - note been ran as a commercial operation is not a negative point, just an observation.

Could someone please explain how these large fully catered high quality events are going to be organised and ran?

Almost certainly along the same lines as LEL. We've already sunk £1,500 into learning how to set up LEL, and that knowledge can be recycled. As can much from LEL, including beds, blankets, towels, rider tracking and good working relationships built up with county councils and police forces.
Sorry to harp back in this thread but what is meant by "along the same lines as LEL". This is an event ran by a company that has relied to a great extent on the free help of experienced audax riders.

Is that really what is being suggested?

BB
Set a fire for a man and he will be warm for a day, set a man on fire and he is warm for the rest of his life.

London Edinburgh London

Re: AUK Website and online entry
« Reply #431 on: 05 March, 2013, 08:07:00 pm »
Sorry to harp back in this thread but what is meant by "along the same lines as LEL". This is an event ran by a company that has relied to a great extent on the free help of experienced audax riders.

Is that really what is being suggested?

BB

Yes.

However while LEL2013 is a company (just like Audax UK), its directors, all experienced audax riders, work for free.

EDIT - I'd also like to point out that LEL2013 has several clauses in its articles that not only bar the directors from taking the profit, they also preclude from spending the surplus on anything other than the promotion of cycling.

Bianchi Boy

  • Cycling is my doctor
  • Is it possible for a ride to be too long?
    • Reading Cycling Club
Re: AUK Website and online entry
« Reply #432 on: 05 March, 2013, 08:17:41 pm »
Sorry to harp back in this thread but what is meant by "along the same lines as LEL". This is an event ran by a company that has relied to a great extent on the free help of experienced audax riders.

Is that really what is being suggested?

BB

Yes.

However while LEL2013 is a company (just like Audax UK), it's directors, all experienced audax riders, work for free.
OK now we have an understanding of how these new style events will be ran. There is some mileage in this idea, but I wonder how much. How much extra capacity is there in the network of helpers? I have tried to get helpers for club events and it takes a lot of effort, and every chicken must have a head! By that I mean every event needs a leader. We know who has lead LEL. Are there enough leaders to run this network for events?

What do others think? I really wonder if this idea can work on anything but a really big event.

BB
Set a fire for a man and he will be warm for a day, set a man on fire and he is warm for the rest of his life.

London Edinburgh London

Re: AUK Website and online entry
« Reply #433 on: 05 March, 2013, 09:07:52 pm »

OK now we have an understanding of how these new style events will be ran. There is some mileage in this idea, but I wonder how much. How much extra capacity is there in the network of helpers? I have tried to get helpers for club events and it takes a lot of effort, and every chicken must have a head! By that I mean every event needs a leader. We know who has lead LEL. Are there enough leaders to run this network for events?

What do others think? I really wonder if this idea can work on anything but a really big event.

LEL has been a tremendous learning experience for quite a few us. Sue and Keith, Roger, John, I think we've all learned an awful lot. I've found it's renewed my interest in running audax events; it was all starting to pall a bit for me. I see no reason why others can't learn along with us, and it's very much our plan to pass on everything we've learned as well as the stuff we've accumulated.

If AUK ran fewer events, and more organisers were prepared to work in teams, then I think we could easily run an event the size of LEL every year. And we could run SR series that attracted (low) hundreds of riders rather than (low) dozens. I really believe the market is out there, and if we made it appealing enough, we could switch on a lot of riders to our way of riding.

Mr Undulates, yleeg, keeff (and sue) have all shown they're able to do it. IanH will do so this year as will Nigel next year. The capacity is there, and so is the potential.

All we need is a strategy that has a vision (ie this vision), because without a vision all you have is a spending plan. Which is all we have at the moment.

(Sorry, I know you asked what others thought. I'll get off my soapbox now, and try and stay off it.)

Bairn Again

Re: AUK Website and online entry
« Reply #434 on: 05 March, 2013, 11:01:35 pm »

OK now we have an understanding of how these new style events will be ran. There is some mileage in this idea, but I wonder how much. How much extra capacity is there in the network of helpers? I have tried to get helpers for club events and it takes a lot of effort, and every chicken must have a head! By that I mean every event needs a leader. We know who has lead LEL. Are there enough leaders to run this network for events?

What do others think? I really wonder if this idea can work on anything but a really big event.
If AUK ran fewer events, and more organisers were prepared to work in teams, then I think we could easily run an event the size of LEL every year. And we could run SR series that attracted (low) hundreds of riders rather than (low) dozens. I really believe the market is out there, and if we made it appealing enough, we could switch on a lot of riders to our way of riding....

All we need is a strategy that has a vision (ie this vision), because without a vision all you have is a spending plan. Which is all we have at the moment.

(Sorry, I know you asked what others thought. I'll get off my soapbox now, and try and stay off it.)

I reckon that the future of a thriving AUK is largely as described by LEL with a sprinkling of helpful modern technology (mercurykevs suggestions come to mind) and some event management nouse.  As somebody who knows jack shit about technology but have organised lots of events involving attendees in the thousands, the key is teamwork. 

More events organised by teams, event facilities and organising teams subject to a minimum standard would all easily secure a thriving audax scene.  I know some have questioned the ability for certain events to expand but with enough pairs of hands and imagination I  reckon that almost every event thats been run in my name since 2009 could have had double the field.
 
I like a quirk as much as anybody, but if there is no future in having events that dont provide a minimum level of information in advance (let the Board decide what that is) and rely on the vagaries of an individual organiser who hasnt had to demonstrate any particular capability for the role

The scenario where people dip a toe in the water of audax and not liking what they experience, never to return, is one we should seek to avoid.  Unless we hate people.   ;)         

Fidgetbuzz

  • L sp MOON. 1st R sp MARS . At X SO sp STARS
Re: AUK Website and online entry
« Reply #435 on: 06 March, 2013, 08:29:15 am »
Sorry to harp back in this thread but what is meant by "alongethe same lines as LEL". This is an event ran by a company that has relied to a great extent on the free help of experienced audax riders.
Is that really what is being suggested?

BB

Just to make sure that there is absolutely no misunderstanding  - LEL is inside a company limited by guarantee ( my advice).

This company can not by legal restriction payout to the members ( just the three of us SS, DW and RJC ) and can only use any surplus to promote cycling events. The Directors have taken nothing from the event - and will not do so. I expect ( post event) to provide AUK Board ( who get a running financial report at each of their Board meetings) and Arrivee with a full summary of the accounts - and will be very happy to stand up ( in due course ) and explain what happened - why this cost XXX and what is going to happen to the surplus ( assuming that there is one) . Current prediction has a surplus of about $10,000 ie $10 per rider - but the nasty unknowns and unexpected  could still appear.

Why did I recommend a company limited by guarantee - same reason that AUK is a company limited by guarantee -4 years ago  the risk to the organisers if something went wrong financially was just too great for those individuals to risk losing some of their personal assets , when all they were trying to do was to put on a better ride experience than ever before.

I can only speak with certainty on my "skill" area - financially it has been interesting - I have learnt some things ( please dont talk to me about Paypal until late August ) and I am very prepared to pass what I have learnt on to anyone thinking of  running a largish event  -- foolishly I have even told DW that if he thinks of doing LEL again in 2017 and would like me to perform the same role - then I am up for it again.

So LEL is in a company -- BUT this is not a company where anybody is going to make money either  from their own efforts or those of some 400/500 volunteers
I was an accountant until I discovered Audax !!

Hillbilly

Re: AUK Website and online entry
« Reply #436 on: 06 March, 2013, 09:24:14 am »
Hmmm.  I've tried to hold back for many, many pages.

I think there is an over-emphasis on LEL in this thread.  AUK is, in my worldview, about more than filtering cyclists to ever longer events.  Whilst the LEL directors are doing a good job in respect of their own event, it is perhaps too early to be evangelical about the extent to which this should become the de facto model for other, more modest but equally valuable events that exist for the promotion of long distance cycling in all its forms.  LEL is simply one event and it remains to be seen the extent to which this truly expands the visibility of audax amongst UK cyclists, in a way that is sustained.  Personally I remain to be convinced, and more strongly take the view that to improve the scope of AUK there needs to be greater focus on well run, smaller scale (50 rider) events with a stronger regional (rather than national) focus.  Included in this is that I think having a sole regional secretary is perhaps something that needs to be revisited, despite the good job being done (thanks JP!) and possibly changed so that there is a local sub-committee responsible for promoting and co-ordinating AUK activity in their region rather than effectively administrering events.

I look forward to reading about what went well and what didn't with LEL, learning lessons applicable to my smaller scale events, and discarding those I don't think applicable.  This is, however, different from using LEL as the template for the future of AUK in anything other than the niche that is ultra distances.

Re: AUK Website and online entry
« Reply #437 on: 06 March, 2013, 09:43:57 am »
I can only speak with certainty on my "skill" area - financially it has been interesting - I have learnt some things ( please dont talk to me about Paypal until late August ) and I am very prepared to pass what I have learnt on to anyone thinking of  running a largish event  -- foolishly I have even told DW that if he thinks of doing LEL again in 2017 and would like me to perform the same role - then I am up for it again.

So LEL is in a company -- BUT this is not a company where anybody is going to make money either  from their own efforts or those of some 400/500 volunteers

Speaking as someone who has watched LEL grow, and has scanned newspapers for money-off vouchers, assiduously collected receipts, delivered supplies, ridden it three times and made DVDs and Youtube films about it, I'm very interested in how it will turn out.

A lot of my work involves deadline-driven project management. One of my reasons for riding Audaxes is to subject myself to regular doses of that, coupled with maintaining fitness. It's a touch of the 'Every journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step', Audax helps maintain the boldness muscle required to launch into a protracted project.

Both Heather and I have looked behind the scenes at PBP and the Semaine Federale, and seen how the volunteer ethos of those two events is interlinked. Semaine Federale is annual, so PBP plugs into a lot more experience. There is a lot of experience in LEL in the control organisation, but the main question is the change of scale. The methods used in previous years aren't 'scalable', so new solutions have to be found.

What is interesting is that there aren't any 'economies of scale'. It's possible to ride 'The Three Coasts 600', for an entry fee of £10, and pay a small extra sum for overnight accommodation at the hall in Mytholmroyd. But LEL is more of an international gathering, so the entry fee is only a small proportion of the total cost for foreign visitors. Those foreign visitors are placing themselves in an uncertain environment beyond just a 1400km bike ride, so the website and the nature of the provision along the route gives a more solid framework to their expectations. Those elements perform a similar function for newer participants.

For those of us who have done PBP and LEL multiple times, the interesting part is how different it will be as an experience from previous rides, and we won't know that until the start of August.

There's probably an intermediate market between the £10 '600' and the likes of the charity and commercial long-distance sportives. One possibility is an extension of the LEL company idea to stage a similar event every year. Another would be an organisation such as the CTC, organising tours with a validation element, as happens with the 'Manche to Med' ride.

The relevance of all this to the AUK website lies in the prominence given to specific rides in the calendar. How much should the website 'advertise' individual events, or project a single interpretation of what 'Audax' is about? The current arrangements make most sense to the Time Trialling community, where National Championships appear in the handbook next to local events, and the transition to online working was slow to happen.

shyumu

  • Paying my TV license by cheque since 1993
    • Balancing on Two Wheels
Re: AUK Website and online entry
« Reply #438 on: 06 March, 2013, 09:51:46 am »
Are posts being deleted?  This thread went up to 19 pages and is now back to 18.
a journal of bicycle rides I have enjoyed:

http://balancingontwowheels.blogspot.co.uk/

shyumu

  • Paying my TV license by cheque since 1993
    • Balancing on Two Wheels
Re: AUK Website and online entry
« Reply #439 on: 06 March, 2013, 10:20:23 am »
Oh I see.  They are being removed and put into separate threads.
a journal of bicycle rides I have enjoyed:

http://balancingontwowheels.blogspot.co.uk/

Re: AUK Website and online entry
« Reply #440 on: 06 March, 2013, 10:26:51 am »
I wish LEL every success, and I don't doubt for a second that the hard work and thoughtful approach from all of those involved will make for a smooth passage.

From a purely personal point of view I'd like more events like Mille Cymru to enter, but can't promise to help. Having said that I hugely appreciate the parochial nature of Audax as is and the loss of that would be tragic. I sat an 80 year old couple's living room on Sunday being fed soup, Jaffa cakes and tea.  It was a control.  I'd hate to see that charming experience disappear through either a drive for fewer larger events, or through weight of numbers.

I'm still of the view that people find their own way to audax. It is a tiny niche, not purely through lack of promotion, but mostly because of its nature.

Jaded

  • The Codfather
  • Formerly known as Jaded
Re: AUK Website and online entry
« Reply #441 on: 06 March, 2013, 10:31:37 am »
It is a bit weird, isn't it!
It is simpler than it looks.

crowriver

  • Крис Б
Re: AUK Website and online entry
« Reply #442 on: 06 March, 2013, 12:04:08 pm »
I'm still of the view that people find their own way to audax. It is a tiny niche, not purely through lack of promotion, but mostly because of its nature.

Yes. Cycling generally in the UK is a tiny niche, and Audax is a niche within that. It's easy to forget that riding a bike (let alone donning lycra) is seen as, at the very least, 'unusual' by most residents of this island. The very idea of riding several hundred kilometres on a bicycle is simply unimaginable to most people.

I imagine the healthy growth that audax has seen in recent years has come from members of the existing cycling community. That community, in relative terms, is still small in the UK. The majority of that community are driven by different concerns than riding long distances: the industry markets MTBs on the one hand, and aluminium/carbon road bikes on the other, to leisure riders. Tourers are a niche, and the 'light tourers' favoured by many audaxers a tiny subset of that niche.

At the shorter distances, we see club riders and cycling enthusiasts doing audaxes as group reliability tests, or cheaper alternatives to sportives. The longer distances appear to be the preserve of.....audax riders.
Embrace your inner Fred.

London Edinburgh London

Re: AUK Website and online entry
« Reply #443 on: 06 March, 2013, 12:22:02 pm »
I hugely appreciate the parochial nature of Audax as is and the loss of that would be tragic. I sat an 80 year old couple's living room on Sunday being fed soup, Jaffa cakes and tea.  It was a control.  I'd hate to see that charming experience disappear through either a drive for fewer larger events, or through weight of numbers.

I couldn't agree more. We lose that at our peril.

I've said it before, but I don't think this is a zero-sum game. Any growth through more ambitious events needn't be at the expense of smaller events if that is what others want to organise and ride. In fact, I think we should make it easier to organise them. At the moment we drape far too much regulation over 'events' that are really just group rides. So if teethgrinders wants to take 10 riders out on a 600km group per, he faces few requirements. But if he runs it as an 'event', he has to fill in loads of gubbins on the event planner, complete a risk assessment, get everything in place  at least three months in advance, and stick to an agreed date and time. That's a lot to ask of events that only attract small fields.

Why not move the dividing line nearer the larger events? So instead of 'events' and 'perms', we have 'events' and 'rides'? We could then reduce the burden of administration on small event organisations, giving them much more flexibility while supporting them through our calendar, publicity and so on.

So rather than have a perms sec, you'd have a 'rides' sec who would look after all our smaller events and perms. This would leave the events sec to focus on what is required to run a smaller number of larger events.

See how a vision then filters down to how we organise ourselves? It's not enough to just throw money at the problem. Instead we need to look a bit more creatively at how we can turn more people on to our way of riding. There are 1 million people in the UK who cycle on a regular basis. When I joined AUK I averaged 60 miles a week. I am certain that sportives and challenge rides are stuffed full of riders who would rather do it our way, if only they know more about us.

Re: AUK Website and online entry
« Reply #444 on: 06 March, 2013, 12:52:38 pm »
I like the principle of this, but I'm not sure it would work.  The risk is, surely, that a lot of organisers might effectively de-register the smaller rides and run them along the lines of a group perm. 

I am thinking of events like (and don't take this as a finger-pointing exercise, it is merely an example of an event type to illustrate my point) Gavin Greenhow's Droitwich events.  These are fairly low-key events (meet in the pub car park, leave your card at the bar at the end), with in my experience fairly modest fields, and Gavin rides along with us.  I'd hate to see events like this effectively removed from the calendar, to be ridden only by the cognosenti who know they are there.

That would make the calendar very thin, and probably less welcoming to the newcomer.

As an organiser, I don't think the rules placed upon us are overly onerous.  Just like any event, including perms, we have to get the route approved for minimum distance.  We have some added flexibility in the availability of infos denied to perms except (effectively) GPS perms.  We are not obliged to provide maps, or gps files, or much of the paraphanalia that many of us do in fact provide.  And given the nature of our pastime the rules generally seem fairly minimal.

I would rather see more encouragement (and help) given to organisers to get their events better attended.  I don't think that is a subject for this thread, which has already deviated more than enough.

London Edinburgh London

Re: AUK Website and online entry
« Reply #445 on: 06 March, 2013, 12:57:29 pm »
Ah, but what if the calendar too was more flexible? Why not have a calendar free of Arrivée publishing requirements, that also included rides/group perms?

Gavin's rides would be perfect for that sort of thing, and Gavin's the sort of organiser who would welcome liberation from many event requirements.

Manotea

  • Where there is doubt...
Re: AUK Website and online entry
« Reply #446 on: 06 March, 2013, 01:31:55 pm »
Thing is, LEL, we already have everything you are suggesting except the ability to list 'group perms' in the calendar. Everything else is simply a matter of making what we have a bit more 'joined up'.

FWIW I really don't like the nomenclature of events and rides. Refering to events with smaller fields, group and solo perms trivializes them.

One of my conundrums, which also relates to your proposal, is how to support chaps who organise traditional perms.

A rider new to audax asked if they could ride the ditchling devil starting from home using a gpx track as pop. Playing things by the book, I'd explain about collecting receipts and how to apply by post with SAEs, the while nine yards.

What I wanted to say was that the simplest thing to do was ride it as a diy perm so he could apply online and use his gps, but that would be abusing the access I have as a diy perm org.

What I did say was yes, use your gps and apply online by printing, completing, scanning and email me the entry form, and make payment by paypal to me at...

Not great, is it?

Our basic structures are sound; the need is to get the supporting processes and systems up to scratch. Everything else will follow from that.

frankly frankie

  • I kid you not
    • Fuchsiaphile
Re: AUK Website and online entry
« Reply #447 on: 06 March, 2013, 02:54:52 pm »
I'd also like to point out that LEL2013 has several clauses in its articles that not only bar the directors from taking the profit, they also preclude from spending the surplus on anything other than the promotion of cycling.

And - something I learned only recently - AIUI AUK is bound over (by ACP) not to promote or encourage events which are intended to make a profit.

I think there is an over-emphasis on LEL in this thread.  AUK is, in my worldview, about more than filtering cyclists to ever longer events. 
...
Personally I remain to be convinced, and more strongly take the view that to improve the scope of AUK there needs to be greater focus on well run, smaller scale (50 rider) events with a stronger regional (rather than national) focus....

Well, but there's a lot of wiggle room between 1400km and 100km.  AUK is certainly about moving 'more' cyclists to ride 'further' - that much is stated in print.

I don't really undertand the advantages of going regional.  AUK have resisted this for 30 years and the country hasn't grown any bigger.  Once you get up to distances of 400km plus, the events tend to cross several regional boundaries anyway.   
Is this about event clashes, or 'seeding' to spread them around -
or is it about reducing travel - or what.
when you're dead you're done, so let the good times roll

Re: AUK Website and online entry
« Reply #448 on: 06 March, 2013, 04:01:27 pm »
And - something I learned only recently - AIUI AUK is bound over (by ACP) not to promote or encourage events which are intended to make a profit.
Ooops, that rather puts a dark-grey mark against the National400 which was traditionally used to plough monies back into CTC treasure chest.
where you have a concentration of power in a few hands, all too frequently men with the mentality of gangsters get control. History has proven that. Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Euan Uzami

Re: AUK Website and online entry
« Reply #449 on: 06 March, 2013, 04:04:54 pm »

I've said it before, but I don't think this is a zero-sum game. Any growth through more ambitious events needn't be at the expense of smaller events if that is what others want to organise and ride. In fact, I think we should make it easier to organise them. At the moment we drape far too much regulation over 'events' that are really just group rides. So if teethgrinders wants to take 10 riders out on a 600km group per, he faces few requirements. But if he runs it as an 'event', he has to fill in loads of gubbins on the event planner, complete a risk assessment, get everything in place  at least three months in advance, and stick to an agreed date and time. That's a lot to ask of events that only attract small fields.

Would that not, serendipitiously, blow the 50% rule clean out of the water?
If I can organise a calendar ride with minimal red tape then I might as well put all my DIYs through the calendar and I have effectively got a loop hole.