eTrex Vista Hcx queries...

[contango]

Sorry - yes, GMAPSUPP.IMG.

I make no apology for spelling disc correctly.

Wasn't it always disk from back in the days when it was short for diskette?

[andyoxon]

That shouldn't be a problem.

Dez suggests applying a small piece of sellotape to over-ride the write protection.

That works.     Cheers Dez - thanks wowb.

[andyoxon]

You should have a CD of 'Trip & Waypoint Manager' supplied with your GPS.  If you haven't, contact your supplier ...

T&WM is a very cut-down Mapsource, so I think Mapsource should install over it.

Another way, apparently, is to install Garmin Training Centre first, then Mapsource. (Never done this myself)

A point to note, if you haven't got a software CD with your GPS - you DO need the Garmin 'USB driver' which is on that disk.  The USB driver is obtainable free from the Garmin Website, as is 'Garmin Connect' which allows you to connect with BikeHike or BikeRouteToaster direct.
Install both those, to improve the usability of your GPS.
NB that Garmin Connect won't work with an Etrex Legend or Vista, unless you have already installed the USB driver.  (This is often overlooked, because for most users who bought an Etrex new, the driver installed invisibly when they put the CD in ...)

Thanks for this.  I have the T&WptM CD so installing this. 

edit.  Installed and also the web downloaded new mapsource software, so far so good.   

[Sergeant Pluck]

Thanks for all the tips above - I've just obtained Openfietsmaps for my copy of Basecamp. The installer for BC on a Mac is incredibly straightforward to use; the maps just appear in Basecamp and that's it.

I haven't done the same for my HCx as I have Garmin mapping on that - getting a bit out of date now I suppose. Speaking of which, I see the OFM maps are dated about 1 year ago. How often do you check for updates?

Basecamp is rather good compared to Mapsource by the way, and there was a fairly substantial update for the Mac recently.

[andyoxon]

In Basecamp, I imported a couple of gpx routes (from mapmyride). I can see them in OFmapping, and apparently 'send to device' (with unit attached via USB cable) by clicking on icon... but where can these transferred routes be found on the Vista HXc itself?

[Kim]

If they're routes, they'll be in the routes menu.  If they're tracks (which they probably are, if you downloaded them from mapmyride), they'll be in the tracks menu.

In Garmin speak, a 'route' is a linked list of waypoints that can be navigated.  A 'track' is a list of arbitrary sets of coordinates, of the sort created by the unit when it logs your journey.  The eTrex is capable of navigating along either.  Tracks allow for much higher resolution (500 points vs 50 or so for routes), so are generally preferred for this sort of thing.

[andyoxon]

I tried again - transferring to unit, the message "track truncated" appears on hcx?

[frankly frankie]

Good of it to let you know!  Track limit is 500 points max. (But you can store 20 of them)

In the Tracks menu, make sure they're coloured, and check that they are set to 'show on map'.

Re the 4Gb card - it depends on how up to date the GPS firmware is.  You can apply the latest update (but I tend to avoid doing this unless something actually seems to be wrong) - there's a Garmin 'Webupdater' to download, somewhere.  Early HCx could only handle 2Gb max, non-HC.
Note the card only holds the maps (and any archived ridden tracks) - it doesn't hold your uploaded tracks and routes, they go straight into the Garmin memory.
Garmin basic setup
3 ways to beat the trackpoint limit

[andyoxon]

Thanks. I've tried a mapmyrun downloaded gpx file into mapsource this time - sent to unit and it comes up as Route, with 287 points (as opposed to a truncd tack in basecamp).   I'm struggling a bit, more than I thought really, I don't even know how I'd 'load' a route/track at the start of a ride, in order for the unit to give me the route....

[frankly frankie]

Didn't you read the bit about a 'learning curve'? 

Routes have a maximun of 250 points
(unless you want them to 'autoroute or 'follow road' in which case the limit is 50 - which is plenty, by the way.)
You can store 50 Routes.
Tracks have a max of 500 points.  You can store 20.

Basically there's a disconnect between the capabilities of the software, and the capabilities of the GPS.  Even when they are both Garmin.

There's also a lot of confusion between 'route' (a way of going from A to B) and 'Route' (a list of Routepoints, do be visited in order) and 'Track' (a list of Trackpoints).  (And there is also 'Course' which means nothing to an Etrex HCx)
In other words, people (and software and online sites) often use the word 'route' when they mean 'Track'. And sometimes vice versa.
BikeHike, for example, invites you to 'download route' when what you actually get is a Track.  Technically correct, but confusing.

[frankly frankie]

Start by drawing a short route (small r) from your home to somewhere say half-a-mile away, involving 2 or 3 turns at least.

Then see what you get, see how it works.  That way you won't hit any limits.   You'll find out if your software (whatever you use) is generating a Route or a Track, and you'll see how effective it is (or not) on the GPS.  Use this to decide on whether you want to persist with Routes, or with Tracks.  Each have their enthusiastic proponents here.

[andyoxon]

Ok, will do.    What governs whether some saved in say bikehike - will be designated a Route or a Track? 

[Ningishzidda]

Question Frank.

A Route can be only two Waypoints. Start and finish. Built on Mapsource. Drop and drag the route on mapsource creates 'Viapoints' between the two Waypoints. These are not seen on the Waypoint list on the eTrex.
There can be a total of 16,000 Viapoints within all the routes on the unit?

50 routes total.
IIRC, that is 100 Waypoints, and 15,900 Viapoints, or thereabouts.

Is this how I remember?

Downside. You cannot name a Viapoint. You cannot delete or move a Viapoint on the Unit, only on Mapsource. ?? Is this the case?

The more Viapoints are within the routes, the less can be utilised to build a saved Track. ?? Is this correct ?

Cheers.

[Somnolent]

Ok, will do.    What governs whether some saved in say bikehike - will be designated a Route or a Track?

bikehike gives you the option of saving something you've planned as a Track or as Route.   The way it does Routes is pants IME.

You cannot name a Viapoint.

Yes you can - but not in Mapsource or bikehike.

[Somnolent]

Start by drawing a short route (small r) from your home to somewhere say half-a-mile away, involving 2 or 3 turns at least.

Then see what you get, see how it works.  That way you won't hit any limits.   You'll find out if your software (whatever you use) is generating a Route or a Track, and you'll see how effective it is (or not) on the GPS.  Use this to decide on whether you want to persist with Routes, or with Tracks.  Each have their enthusiastic proponents here.

Good advice!

One way to really understand the difference is to use Ben T's gpxeditor.co.uk site.
Right-click to start creating a track.
When you've finished you can tell it to make a route out of it.

[Ningishzidda]

Start by drawing a short route (small r) from your home to somewhere say half-a-mile away, involving 2 or 3 turns at least.

Then see what you get, see how it works.  That way you won't hit any limits.   You'll find out if your software (whatever you use) is generating a Route or a Track, and you'll see how effective it is (or not) on the GPS.  Use this to decide on whether you want to persist with Routes, or with Tracks.  Each have their enthusiastic proponents here.

+1

Time in reconnaissance is never time wasted.

Define
Measure
Analyse
Improve
Control

[frankly frankie]

Ok, will do.    What governs whether some saved in say bikehike - will be designated a Route or a Track?

bikehike gives you the option of saving something you've planned as a Track or as Route.   The way it does Routes is pants IME.

In fact all it does, as far as I can see, is save a Track but repurpose it as a (dysfunctional) Route.  It just gives Routes a bad name.

Right, I've got a bit more time now - Andy -
on the model of GPS you've got, basically in order to get 'navigational' bells and whistles (turn warnings, little bleep, backlight comes on, unhelpful message displayed) - you have to be following a Route.
(Before anyone else says it - yes it is possible to navigate a Track, but frankly its more trouble than its worth, on these older Etrexes.)

A Track, on the other hand, is a lowest-common-denominator format that can be seen as a 'just works' sort of thing, as long as you don't expect too much of it.  That's why they are quite popular, espeially for sharing and distribution.  By colouring the Track and setting it to 'show on map' you are effectively getting a scrolling electronic version of a paper map that has been gone over with a highlighter pen.  No prompts or anything - you just keep to the line on the map.  Again - this is a modus operandi that a lot of people understand and are comfortable with.
I can (have done) give someone a GPS preloaded with Tracks from one end of France to the other, with instructions to "switch it on in the morning, and off at night, follow the green line" - and that is all they need to navigate an approved route through France, having never seen a GPS before in their lives.

Most online planners work best as Track planners (BikeHike and BikeRouteToaster are actually optimised for Courses - which are a bit like Tracks on steroids, but anyway not usable on your Etrex) - you just let the 'follow road' stuff do its thing and then download the result as a Track, using the option to reduce it to 500 points.  Quick and easy.

Or - but nobody does this do they? except me - turn the 'follow road' stuff off and then plot a 'join the dots' from turn to turn - this can then be downloaded as a Route (BikeHike only - BRT doesn't do Routes) and (provided there are fewer than 250 points) it should work on your GPS and generate prompts as each waypoint approaches.  Less is more incidentally, when plotting this type of Route - don't use more points than you have to.
If the route has <= 50 points, you can opt to put your GPS into 'follow road' mode for a more satnav-like navigational experience.
   
250 points, at a very rough average of 1 per Km which is about right for laney UK conditions - will get you 250Km.
Likewise if autorouting, 1 point per 5Km is probably a safe average to use, in rural conditions - again 50x5 == 250Km.
A Track - 500 points is just about good for 100Km at a stretch.  Although the Track you lay down while riding will be much denser - around 1 point per 60m.  So will a Track generated by a Planner, be denser.  So to stretch a Track like this to longer distances you have to downsample.

[frankly frankie]

Question Frank.
A Route can be only two Waypoints. Start and finish. Built on Mapsource. Drop and drag the route on mapsource creates 'Viapoints' between the two Waypoints. These are not seen on the Waypoint list on the eTrex.
There can be a total of 16,000 Viapoints within all the routes on the unit?
50 routes total.
IIRC, that is 100 Waypoints, and 15,900 Viapoints, or thereabouts.

Not quite that many.  From trial-and-error, suck-it-and-see, you can have well over 5000 of these 'via' points in a HCx model - I got bored at 5160 but I think someone else carried on and got near 7000.  Certainly not 50x250.  Fewer in the older models - Cx and C (I took an ancient C to 2438 points before it complained). 
But - in practice, that is loads.  I've done some very big multi-week tours and never gone even near 2000 points.

The more Viapoints are within the routes, the less can be utilised to build a saved Track. ?? Is this correct ?

No.  The Track memory is completely protected from everything else.  You can always have 20x500 Trackpoints PLUS 10,000 more in your 'active' Track, regardless of anything else.

[andyoxon]

Ok, will do.    What governs whether some saved in say bikehike - will be designated a Route or a Track?

bikehike gives you the option of saving something you've planned as a Track or as Route.   The way it does Routes is pants IME.

In fact all it does, as far as I can see, is save a Track but repurpose it as a (dysfunctional) Route.  It just gives Routes a bad name.

Right, I've got a bit more time now - Andy -
on the model of GPS you've got, basically in order to get 'navigational' bells and whistles (turn warnings, little bleep, backlight comes on, unhelpful message displayed) - you have to be following a Route.
(Before anyone else says it - yes it is possible to navigate a Track, but frankly its more trouble than its worth, on these older Etrexes.)

A Track, on the other hand, is a lowest-common-denominator format that can be seen as a 'just works' sort of thing, as long as you don't expect too much of it.  That's why they are quite popular, espeially for sharing and distribution.  By colouring the Track and setting it to 'show on map' you are effectively getting a scrolling electronic version of a paper map that has been gone over with a highlighter pen.  No prompts or anything - you just keep to the line on the map.  Again - this is a modus operandi that a lot of people understand and are comfortable with.
I can (have done) give someone a GPS preloaded with Tracks from one end of France to the other, with instructions to "switch it on in the morning, and off at night, follow the green line" - and that is all they need to navigate an approved route through France, having never seen a GPS before in their lives.

Most online planners work best as Track planners (BikeHike and BikeRouteToaster are actually optimised for Courses - which are a bit like Tracks on steroids, but anyway not usable on your Etrex) - you just let the 'follow road' stuff do its thing and then download the result as a Track, using the option to reduce it to 500 points.  Quick and easy.

Or - but nobody does this do they? except me - turn the 'follow road' stuff off and then plot a 'join the dots' from turn to turn - this can then be downloaded as a Route (BikeHike only - BRT doesn't do Routes) and (provided there are fewer than 250 points) it should work on your GPS and generate prompts as each waypoint approaches.  Less is more incidentally, when plotting this type of Route - don't use more points than you have to.
If the route has <= 50 points, you can opt to put your GPS into 'follow road' mode for a more satnav-like navigational experience.
...
250 points, at a very rough average of 1 per Km which is about right for laney UK conditions - will get you 250Km.
Likewise if autorouting, 1 point per 5Km is probably a safe average to use, in rural conditions - again 50x5 == 250Km.
A Track - 500 points is just about good for 100Km at a stretch.  Although the Track you lay down while riding will be much denser - around 1 point per 60m.  So will a Track generated by a Planner, be denser.  So to stretch a Track like this to longer distances you have to downsample.

Thanks for this very helpful.  I'm still not totally sure about the via points vs waypoints distinction. 

Seems I have the earliest v2.20 0 firmware (from start up screen) is it worth updating - probably let sleeping GPSs lie...  http://www8.garmin.com/support/download_details.jsp?id=3709

Can one follow a GPS calculated route to a postcode on HCx? 

What's the procedure for going for an 'unplanned' ride and getting the GPS unit to log the route taken..?  Just tracklog set to on?

[Kim]

What's the procedure for going for an 'unplanned' ride and getting the GPS unit to log the route taken..?  Just tracklog set to on?

Unlike those Edge thingies where you have to remember to 'start' a ride, I don't think it's even possible to turn track logging off on a Vista HCx.

Anyway, what you want to do is go to the track setup menu, tweak the interval and method to taste (I recommend Auto/Most often, unless you need 1 per second for some reason).  Then set it to wrap when full, and turn on logging to the SD card.

At this point, you can safely do whatever you like to the tracks in the internal memory, and be sure that your every move is going to be saved to a GPX file on the card for later retrieval.  I'm extremely annoyed that this idiot-proof behaviour isn't reproducible on the new eTrex.


(Wrap when full is important, because otherwise if you manage to fill the current track memory on the unit, it simply stops recording *even to SD card*.)

[Wowbagger]

What's the procedure for going for an 'unplanned' ride and getting the GPS unit to log the route taken..?  Just tracklog set to on?

Unlike those Edge thingies where you have to remember to 'start' a ride, I don't think it's even possible to turn track logging off on a Vista HCx.

Anyway, what you want to do is go to the track setup menu, tweak the interval and method to taste (I recommend Auto/Most often, unless you need 1 per second for some reason).  Then set it to wrap when full, and turn on logging to the SD card.

At this point, you can safely do whatever you like to the tracks in the internal memory, and be sure that your every move is going to be saved to a GPX file on the card for later retrieval.  I'm extremely annoyed that this idiot-proof behaviour isn't reproducible on the new eTrex.


(Wrap when full is important, because otherwise if you manage to fill the current track memory on the unit, it simply stops recording *even to SD card*.)

You can turn off the track logging. It's a toggle at the top of the "tracks" menu.

[Kim]

You can turn off the track logging. It's a toggle at the top of the "tracks" menu.

Ah, ok.  I've evidently considered it so useless that I've mentally blocked it out.  Logging to SD card, and the Vista's sensible reset button mean that I've not really spent a lot of time in there.

[andyoxon]

Thanks Kim/Wowb. 

When I create a track in bikehike it doesn't seem to have any elevation data.  Is this right?

If I want to follow a track I've made, do I simply zoom into the map, and follow the coloured line?   Need to get on the bike (when I'm over the lurgy) and test this out!

I've discovered that I can set the trip computer and tracks page to the main page sequence list - which is handy.

[Specializta]

I've discovered that I can set the trip computer and tracks page to the main page sequence list - which is handy.

It's what is so contradictory about these units. They are so well thought out and can be organised about your own preferences to such an extent that the complexity can be a bit unsettling at first. If you think to yourself 'wouldn't it be great if it could do so and so', a lot of the time when you look under the hood it will actually do it.

[andyoxon]

Seems true Spec.  Beginning to see my way around a bit better now.

Unit now on bike...       


P1160533 by ao, on Flickr



P1160534 by ao, on Flickr


PS - the bell's staying.