Author Topic: New cycling strategy for London  (Read 8802 times)

Re: New cycling strategy for London
« Reply #25 on: 07 March, 2013, 03:31:34 pm »

I guess it all depends how well the various changes are implemented. I'm not as against segregated cycle lanes, in some cases, as I once was: the police have no inclination or ability to enforce the law and drivers are largely free to do as they like without any fear of being brought to justice.
Based on previous records, some of it will be good, some ok, some frankly appalling.

I don't expect much from Boris, I won't be disappointed. Equally, cycle lanes don't upset me.

clarion

  • Tyke
Re: New cycling strategy for London
« Reply #26 on: 07 March, 2013, 03:34:03 pm »
There are any number of ways you could redirect the significant envestment a segregated system would require (even though we all know that, like the LCN+, it will be canned when half-done), which would improve safety and the general experience for cycling overall.  We all know stupid bits of segregated paths.  There are three I use passing through Sutton town centre where I am guaranteed to find illegal parking, pedestrians walking in the segregated portion where I can't avoid them, and bad surfacing (I don't mean bad surface, I mean bad - dangerous - engineering in the first place).  I do not look forward to that being extended across London.

Priorities for improving cycling in London should be:

20mph except on Red Routes and other significant through roads
Play streets
Shared spaces in town centres.
Finish LCN+
ASLs for all Red Route junctions
24hr bus lanes on Red Routes
Increase permeability

That lot would make cycling better, cost a damn sight less, and mean we don't get driven off the road in punishment passes when we're not on the pathetic lanes we'll end up with (for reference, see how the CSH scheme scaled down and did nothing for junction safety).
Getting there...

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Re: New cycling strategy for London
« Reply #27 on: 07 March, 2013, 03:34:16 pm »
Low-and-slow traffic non-segregated facilities (roads), plus the right sort of encouragement, will get people out of their cars - except for those who will always drive when they possibly can anyway.  I don't say this is politically easier than segregation, but we don't have to resort to what's easiest.
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Re: New cycling strategy for London
« Reply #28 on: 07 March, 2013, 03:34:31 pm »
It'll be a victory for the motorists, thanks to campaigners giving in to being told to "get off the road".
Exactly.  These plans are a load of expensive old wankflap, designed to put money into the pockets of infrastructure contractors whilst pretending to be all about the lovely cuddly green cyclists.

If Boris the Berk actually wanted to improve cycling in London, he'd make cycle training free at the point of use and roll out weekly cycling lessons to every London school child.  He'd plough the rest of the money into the Met Police, with specific instructions to prosecute dangerous drivers until they cried genuine tears of remorse.  The Met Police cycle task force would be quadrupled in size and a London-wide antitheft drive would make cycle crime a dim memory.

Accepting that the best place for a cyclist to be is on the road, he'd announce a presumption of a 20pmh limit on all London singe carriageways.  He'd make road surfacing a priority and remove as much extraneous signage as possible.  He'd widen the congestion charging scheme to the majority of zone one and rack it up to £25 a day, whilst dropping the daily cost for using a hire bike back down to a pound. 

But he's not going to do any of that because he's a mendacious, fuck-haired tory dick.

Might I humbly propose this post for POTD ?   On any number of levels.
Rust never sleeps

Re: New cycling strategy for London
« Reply #29 on: 07 March, 2013, 03:35:10 pm »
I agree with Charlotte's point of view mostly (except I'd like to see fuel prices rise instead of the congestion charge - it's not just a London problem).

I'm on a market stall tomorrow for our local Cycling Campaign. They have just released a stratagy based on the 'Go Dutch' prinicples (up to last year I thought this meant that gurls pay their half for tea & cakes at cafe stops  ;D). They were so focused on this issue that, until I reminded them, they forgot all about the issue of crossing the busy bypass that surrounds our city on 3 sides and cuts across all the NCN, Cycle Byways and council provided Cycle routes with nothing but 'Dismount' signs as provision.  >:( >:( >:(
If it ain't broke, fix it 'til it is...

Re: New cycling strategy for London
« Reply #30 on: 07 March, 2013, 03:36:46 pm »
driven off the road in punishment passes when we're not on the pathetic lanes we'll end up with

That aspect does worry me: it'll be a great excuse for the Daily Mail reading motorists.

Re: New cycling strategy for London
« Reply #31 on: 07 March, 2013, 03:44:20 pm »
In theory a lot of it looks great, but the practice will likely be a lot different.

When the Cycle Superhighways were first brought up, they sounded like a great idea, but in practice they've been much like many other cycle facilities, ill thought out, and expensive.  Now this latest initiative does seem to address some of that, by claiming it's going to spend money more selectively on specific junctions, so that may be a plus, but I'm not about to hold my breath.

Do we know where the money is going to come from?  I haven't read all of the releases and reports, but the amounts of money being mentioned are substantial, and Boris isn't noted for a history of finding money magically, something else is almost certainly going to lose out to provide this money, or it's all a dream, and will come to nothing with a lack of funding.

Unfortunately words are cheap, and there's certainly a history here of announcing grand plans that ultimately don't deliver most of what they claim they will.  Time will tell, and I hope I'm pleasantly surprised, but I'm not confident of that outcome.
Actually, it is rocket science.
 

Flynn

  • Fred Killah
Re: New cycling strategy for London
« Reply #32 on: 07 March, 2013, 03:45:34 pm »
On the plus side, Keith Peat probably crapped a pineapple today.
ap·a·thy  (p-th)
n.
1. Lack of interest or concern, especially regarding matters of general importance or appeal; indifference.

Re: New cycling strategy for London
« Reply #33 on: 07 March, 2013, 04:06:54 pm »
In theory a lot of it looks great, but the practice will likely be a lot different.

When the Cycle Superhighways were first brought up, they sounded like a great idea, but in practice they've been much like many other cycle facilities, ill thought out, and expensive.  Now this latest initiative does seem to address some of that, by claiming it's going to spend money more selectively on specific junctions, so that may be a plus, but I'm not about to hold my breath.

Do we know where the money is going to come from?  I haven't read all of the releases and reports, but the amounts of money being mentioned are substantial, and Boris isn't noted for a history of finding money magically, something else is almost certainly going to lose out to provide this money, or it's all a dream, and will come to nothing with a lack of funding.

Unfortunately words are cheap, and there's certainly a history here of announcing grand plans that ultimately don't deliver most of what they claim they will.  Time will tell, and I hope I'm pleasantly surprised, but I'm not confident of that outcome.

I'd take issue with the Cycle Superhighway soundinglike a great idea, to me they always sounded like a large bucket of paint and the reality has proven to be better. A long way off perfect, but still.

Can I suggest a really controversial idea here - that we possibly stop obsessing about the differences cyclists and motorists?

We know we are the same people: same shit cyclists same shit drivers, same good cyclists, same good drivers. But, you get more people onto bikes and I think you reach a tipping point somewhere that will take us to a place where we both just get on with our business of getting from A to B. More people have experience of cycling, more people will understand how to drive around cyclists more people will accept cyclists as part of the streetscape.




ian

Re: New cycling strategy for London
« Reply #34 on: 07 March, 2013, 04:40:22 pm »
I want more people to cycle. I've nothing against cars, I have one, they're quite handy. But places where people bike are quite simply nicer places to be. Cycling condenses the world to a human scale, where people have to interact. People in cars are horrible, they're removed from the ebb and flow of the world around them, dissociated in their little metallic bubble of solitude. They beep and rev and get angry because there's nothing but them (you see a similar phenomenon on the internet where people fling words at other like spittle, because they're protected by their computer, always one remove from actuality). On a bicycle, or walking, people are human again. They've no steel and aluminium carapace. Seriously, what can be more off-putting in an urban environments than areas carved up by speeding cars belching fumes. No one sane wants that. Even the mushiest brained speed-o-phile doesn't want cars speeding past their front door, past their child's school, and it's always someone's front door or school.

Yes, there are more people cycling. It's pretty impressive in London. But even in London, it's still a small subset of the people who could cycle. It's mostly young people in lycra. It doesn't seem an inclusive phenomenon. As a man rambling into his middle years, I'm viewed as mildly eccentric for riding around London, and quite frankly just getting places (and enjoying doing it). Seriously, when I turn up a meeting and tell them I cycled, I usually get the same look I'd get if I told them I'd been bungie jumping above a prickly pear plantation. I know so many people who would cycle, but don't and it's a small set of reasons why they don't. None of them are insurmountable. And they're trivial, really, if we had the will.

I cycled past a local school early and there were two bikes locked up. Two. That's sad and illustrates how far we have to go to make this a cycling city. I cycle in from zone 4. It's not a stage on the Tour de France. It takes a fairly leisurely fifty minutes and pretty much competes with the train–bus combination for time, yet is more comfortable, gets me some exercise, and racks up good excuses for cakes and beer. Yet, sometimes I can pretty much cycle half the way to work before I encounter another cyclist (and more often than not they do look like they think they're competing in the TdF).

Yes, I can cast a dim view over some facilities. I don't think I exactly complemented CS7 the other week (but just in case, for the record, it's shit). But, as cyclists, we can sulk and complain, moan that some driver once told me to get on the cycle path, or we can do something. And the very best thing we can do is cycle and get other people to cycle. Campaign for the things that get them cycle. By all means criticise the bad, but constructively. You want to change the attitude of motorists, more people cycling is the way to do it. They're not going to yell abuse out of the window if it might be their wife, husband, child on that bike. If they're cycling themselves it themselves, they can empathise. They only way you know what a close pass feels like is when it happens to you. You don't and won't ever get that from sitting in a car.

The same applies to politicians. They listen when it's in their interest to listen. Say what you want about Boris, but at least he's making the noises.

I'm fine with some segregation. Some roads suck and you can't pretty that up. A huge articulated lorry growling a metre behind your right shoulder is never going to be cuddly moment. Pretty much all non-cyclists are destined to remain non-cyclists because of traffic. Give them routes they can be confident on, then that's their number one reason not to cycle struck-through with a fat black marker pen. Quiet routes are also excellent – as an explorer of the LCN routes (and I'm not exactly recommending them other than as urban safari, but when they work, they offer a path to reasonable compromise, and as they stand are an opportunity missed). Sure, they need work, but simple interventions on a well-thought out off-main-road route are simple and inexpensive. Again, people get the confidence to get out there and cycle.

Sure, it might not happen, but it would definitely never happen without the vision. And at least there's something to hold up and say, hey, what happened to this? But, hey, if you'd rather keep cycling your exclusive preserve, then ignore this and campaign for things that won't happen. I'd vote for £25 congestion charge, I'd vote for have motorists who kill, maim, or merely drive like dicks, to be boiled in foetid kebab grease. Really, though, they're not going to happen.

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: New cycling strategy for London
« Reply #35 on: 07 March, 2013, 04:52:40 pm »
That's all the campaigners for segregation think about: the number of people cycling, without really caring about quality of cycling.

The second follows from the first...

places where people bike are quite simply nicer places to be.

d.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Kim

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Re: New cycling strategy for London
« Reply #36 on: 07 March, 2013, 05:51:49 pm »
While I enjoyed Charlotte's rant as much as anyone, and will take all things Boris with a very large pinch of salt (something which I expect will be notably absent from these new cyclepaths in winter), I can't dismiss all segregation as a bad thing.

Adequate quality (by which I mean the sort of thing most of us would be happy to cycle on if there wasn't a more convenient faster road route) segregated routes that go somewhere useful do encourage people (especially those who aren't young, middle class white men) to cycle.  A couple of high-profile ones crossing central London are therefore a Good Thing.  Will they cock it up?  Almost certainly.  Will they cock it up enough that people who haven't yet got on a bike yet will notice?  Probably not.

Yes, there are other ways to spend the money that are likely to be more useful, especially to those who already cycle.

Yes, the best way to encourage cycling is to get rid of, or at least slow down the motor traffic.

I'm more optimistic about the Quietways stuff.  That sounds suspiciously like the other half of the Dutch approach: reducing motor vehicle permeability and speeds, freeing up the back roads for cycle traffic and providing quality signage so you don't have to worry about navigation.

And if some real money gets thrown at junction design, that may well be a force for good.

Biggsy

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Re: New cycling strategy for London
« Reply #37 on: 07 March, 2013, 06:12:40 pm »
That's all the campaigners for segregation think about: the number of people cycling, without really caring about quality of cycling.

The second follows from the first...

So we get millions of people cycling at 5 mph on crap cycle tracks, take twenty years before there's enough money, then make them wider and smoother afterwards, ie. roads.  We've already got roads: physically an excellent cycling infrastructure.  It's what's on the roads that is the problem, not the roads.  I'd like to see more people cycling, too, but not if it discourages making the roads better for cycling and gives excuses for road cycling to be banned.
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Flynn

  • Fred Killah
Re: New cycling strategy for London
« Reply #38 on: 07 March, 2013, 06:19:05 pm »
I've argued all these points with the pro-segregationists, and especially the arseholes who call themselves the Cycling Embassy of Great Britain. They are not interested. Their stock argument is, "Would you let a seven year old cycle to school on British roads". So they won't be happy until we all ARE limited to 5mph on a track miles away from where we want to be.
ap·a·thy  (p-th)
n.
1. Lack of interest or concern, especially regarding matters of general importance or appeal; indifference.


citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: New cycling strategy for London
« Reply #40 on: 07 March, 2013, 09:16:53 pm »
So we get millions of people cycling at 5 mph on crap cycle tracks...

I can't be bothered to argue* with you but out of interest, where do you get this 5mph figure from?

d.

*these arguments have been done to death and it'll get us nowhere.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Biggsy

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Re: New cycling strategy for London
« Reply #41 on: 07 March, 2013, 09:30:31 pm »
I can't be bothered to explain what should and shouldn't be taken literally.

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Re: New cycling strategy for London
« Reply #42 on: 07 March, 2013, 09:32:31 pm »
That's two lots of 'Can't be bothered'

Ought we just Keep Calm and Carry on Cycling?  :D

FWIW / My 2p's worth:I'm not holding my breath....
I really, really, really would prefer to see some, any enforcement of the HC ( I get the impression there's currently none) with subsequent punitive measures for infringement thereof.
RLJs and pavement cyclists included, in equal measures to other road users.

Re: New cycling strategy for London
« Reply #43 on: 07 March, 2013, 10:19:16 pm »
Anyone who thinks it is possible to bully people out of their cars and on to bikes clearly hasn't been paying attention to what UK society is like.  You have got to encourage those who are willing but afraid to cycle.

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: New cycling strategy for London
« Reply #44 on: 07 March, 2013, 10:25:21 pm »
I can't be bothered to explain what should and shouldn't be taken literally.

Hyperbole, litotes, sarcasm... isn't rhetoric wonderful?

d.




"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

hellymedic

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Re: New cycling strategy for London
« Reply #45 on: 07 March, 2013, 10:32:31 pm »
It is the British cycle tracks that have pitifully low design speeds. When cycle tracks are 4 metres wide, as they are in The Netherlands, cyclists can ride as fast or as slowly as they like.
I don't think slow, narrow cycle tracks are acceptable. I hope Boris does not impose them on anyone.

Biggsy

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Re: New cycling strategy for London
« Reply #46 on: 07 March, 2013, 10:53:56 pm »
Cycle lanes cannot be 4 meters wide in most of the places where cyclists need most help unless roads and buildings are demolished, and it's unlikely that there will be the will or money in the UK to build them to road standards.

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David Martin

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Re: New cycling strategy for London
« Reply #47 on: 07 March, 2013, 11:00:32 pm »
This is where the design standards will have to be mandated. There is a lot to welcome in the proposals. They are predominantly not  for people who currently cycle. They are instead for the aspirant and future cyclist who currently doesn't. If (and it looks like there is a good possibility this might happen) the idea is to pick on the best of what is abroad and put serious money (and 900M is serious money, even in a mid-sized country like London) then this can be a serious dent in the motorpoly and a catalyst for a public outcry for more.

Safe routes to near where I need to be. That is what I want. I am capable (recent events notwithstanding) of making almost any route sufficiently safe in a manner in which I am comfortable. I can in no way pretend that projecting my attitude and ability onto the general population is a realistic option. The threshold of 'feeling safe' beyond which people will abandon the bike and revert to the car is much lower than many of us imagine. And the demand also much higher.

I'd be tempted to say that much of the reaction is kneejerk regarding the colour blue. This is serious funding, a serious proposal and from what little I have seen looks like an attempt to kick start London out of the dead end it has got into with cycling and Copenhagenise it.

If you are already cycling around London this is not for you. But that is absolutely no reason to criticise it for the 10x you that would be intended as potential users.
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David Martin

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Re: New cycling strategy for London
« Reply #48 on: 07 March, 2013, 11:02:49 pm »
Cycle lanes cannot be 4 meters wide in most of the places where cyclists need most help unless roads and buildings are demolished, and it's unlikely that there will be the will or money in the UK to build them to road standards.

I would suggest that the vision goes beyond trying to retrofit current main routes with additional lanes and is looking far more radically at appropriate solutions. Cycles are more permeable than motor vehicles - don't expect a solution optimised for road vehicles to map onto a suitable cycle network. Some will be segregation. Some will be a reversal of priviledge. Some will be mindworks.
"By creating we think. By living we learn" - Patrick Geddes

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: New cycling strategy for London
« Reply #49 on: 07 March, 2013, 11:03:08 pm »
I don't think slow, narrow cycle tracks are acceptable.

I don't think anyone does.

Unfortunately, as soon as you mention the S-word, the same knee-jerk responses are trotted out every time, regardless of what is actually being proposed. Yawn.

I credit Biggsy with at least enough intelligence to be aware that my difficulty with his statement was not an inability to recognise hyperbole when I see it.

Maybe the S-word topic should be placed on a high shelf out of reach of children along with the H-word topic.

d.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."