Exterior Wall Cladding ??

[andrewc]

I live in a 1930's brick built flat, one of a complex of 280 . The flats are self managed with the leaseholders electing a committee and the committee appointing a managing agent who is responsible for maintenance etc.

The complex was renovated in the 1980's but some of the brickwork is likely to need costly repointing etc in a fairly short time.

The agent & committee have been talking to a company that specialises in insulation work and who have offered to add external cladding to the entire complex.  They claim this will reduce the need for external repairs & cut heating bills for tentant by approx 25%

http://www.wall-lag.co.uk/insulation/exterior-cladding

The cost of the work (£millions) would be met by one of the government schemes.

We've all got to vote on this.

I'm all in favour of saving energy & money, but I don't like the artists impressions I've seen.  The external cladding looks like the stuff you see on the outside of temporary buildings.

I'm also suspicious of the reduced maintenance costs,  I'd think the cladding could conceal ongoing problems & make them harder to fix when discovered.

Has anyone on here had any experience of such cladding or opinions good or bad ?

 

[mrcharly-YHT]

Well from that link the first layer of the cladding is a mortar render - that's going to stop brick deteriorating, fill in pointing. I'm not sure about the insulation claims - I guess if it is a whole wall (and particularly if it is solid brick rather than cavity) then it might work well.

Appearance - well, there is a lot of shoddy cladding being done these days. The worst of it is is timber. Cheap timber with cheap paint and within 2 years it is a peeling warping mess.

The cladding done by this company is synthetic so shouldn't suffer from those problems.

[Quisling]

If it's being funded through the Energy Company Obligation then the standard of work and the energy saving claims should be transparent.  In particular, in order to claim they have met the ECO requirements, the big energy companies will have to demonstrate their savings calculations follow a methodology set out by (I think) Ofgem.

Check exactly how it's being funded (through which "government scheme", as they are mostly specified by the government but funded by the energy companies though a levy on your bill) and ask on what basis the claimed energy savings are made.  Is it an averaged figure or a specific calculation for your project?

[Wombat]

Wot 'e sed...

Its not in a CSCO area, is it?  If it is, that would explain why it is free, as getting decent external wall insulation done under the others streams of ECO can be easier said than done, althugh we are managing it on a few of our blocks that are classed as "hard to treat".  External wall insulation is a normal and commonplace way to improve the energy efficiency of tricky buildings.  Usually a combination of fancy insulation slabs and a render with clever additives.

I'm not expecting you to know if you are in a CSCO area (however, knowing if you are is a good idea), but just ask the proposed supplier who will know how it is being funded.

by the way, these "Government schemes" are of course not funded by the Government at all, but by the energy companies, who of course in turn get their funding from you and me.  What the head of customer relations of SSE said on the telly last night when they were being attacked for putting their prices up (as all the others will shortly do) is true, they don't actually make a vast profit margin, and some of what they do make is covering their arses over what trick the Govt are going to pull next, re: getting them to fund everything.  So don't shoot the energy companies, (no, I don't work for one!) feel free to exact your punishments on Greg Barker and all the other ministerial muppets.

[Polar Bear]

Depends on your definition  of 'vast' really.   Hundreds of millions is vast enough for me, and don't forget, this is clear profit, not running costs.

[Bledlow]

Hundreds of millions on many billions of turnover isn't vast. Proportions are what matter, not absolute amounts. If the margin is too small, they can't invest. Can't build up reserves, can't issue new shares to raise money (nobody will buy if they can't see how they'll get a return), can't borrow because can't pay it back. If they don't invest, the lights will go out eventually.

[Polar Bear]

Hundreds of millions seems adequate to me to have an investment programme as well as to pay reasonable investment returns.   It seems to me that the energy companies want guaranteed profits which is vulgar as well as absurd.   

Just my POV you understand.

[Polar Bear]

Sorry, I underestimated.   A quick google reveals that they made 1.4 billion profit for 2012/13 and represented the 14th year on year increase in profits for SSE.   Not bad for a company struggling...   

[Hot Flatus]

I had my house fitted with it a couple of years ago as my house is single brick, rather than cavity. It consists of large foamy boards bolted onto the house and then coated with a water repellant render.

The difference in insulation was staggering. An unanticipated benefit was the sound insulation,; we no longer hear much traffic noise. In fact we noticed the difference in warmth as soon as they'd screwed the boards onto one side of the house.

[Canardly]

These systems are pretty standard these days for upgrading thermal properties of a solid wall construction. Not so common on cavity walls though.

[Snakehips]

I know two builders who stick it on every house they own. I assume the building regs people must love it.

[mrcharly-YHT]

I had my house fitted with it a couple of years ago as my house is single brick, rather than cavity. It consists of large foamy boards bolted onto the house and then coated with a water repellant render.

The difference in insulation was staggering. An unanticipated benefit was the sound insulation,; we no longer hear much traffic noise. In fact we noticed the difference in warmth as soon as they'd screwed the boards onto one side of the house.

That's really interesting.

Would you mind posting a pic so we can see what it looks like?  Does it need planning permission (since it changes appearance of the house).

[Hot Flatus]

Planning permission depends on house. Looks like flat render, really neat.

[Kim]

This seems like a good time to introduce something I like to call "The Brick Theory":

Sit in a traffic jam in any modern city, and you'll see buildings of all ages and states of repair.  Disregard anything built in the last 10 years or so.  Of the remainder, mentally sort them into the ones that look good and the ones that look naff (note I'm specifically referring to overall aesthetic naffness, rather than specific indicators like dirt, stains or disrepair).  Observe the high correlation between naffness and non-brick surfaces.  Marvel at how the shabbiest old brick wall with water damage and peeling paint still manages to be more aesthetically pleasing than UV faded plastic cladding or stained 60s concrete.

The lesson, I think, should be obvious...

[andrewc]

[Moleman76]

On the west shore of the Atlantic, these "Exterior Insulation and Finish Systems" (EIFS) have gone through a few phases:

1, Great enthusiasm and application on many buildings
2, Widespread disillusion and legal action against those who installed it
3, Buildings completely scaffolded and tented so that the failed material could be completely removed
4, Addition of various belts and suspenders to mitigate the problems
5, Cautious renewal of use.

Now, be aware that most of the installations over here have been on framed wall construction, not over solid masonry walls or even veneered walls with a drainage cavity.  EIFS began in Germany as a covering for solid masonry walls which, due to their very mass and thickness, were unlikely to have moisture penetrate through them.

The question which you need to ask is "is this a barrier system or a drainage system?"

Barrier systems rely on absolutely no leaks.  How likely is that to be installed?  There is absolutely no chance that somewhere, something won't quite stick right and there will be a way for water to get in.  Since everything else is pretty well sealed, it will take a long time to get out.

Drainage systems (in their best form) create a rainscreen effect.  Like a brick cavity wall, there is a place where the moisture which gets in can drain down and out.  If the exterior wall of your building has nooks, crannies, innies and outies, a proper installation will need drainage provisions at the bottom of each "drip" edge.  That is, at every window and door head, at the lower edge of every major offset, etc.  It can be done.  Over here, there are a few workmen who can get it done right.  It costs more, of course, to do it right.

Personally, I wouldn't do it.  Like Kim said, you'll be trading the brick aesthetic for a bland, stucco-ish wall.  You definitely will get better insulation, but that's about the only benefit.  Looking at your photo, there are a lot of places to be very carefully treated at those balconies, etc.

[disclosure: I'm an architect, and a picky one at that]

[jsabine]

I had my house fitted with it a couple of years ago as my house is single brick, rather than cavity. It consists of large foamy boards bolted onto the house and then coated with a water repellant render.

The difference in insulation was staggering. An unanticipated benefit was the sound insulation,; we no longer hear much traffic noise. In fact we noticed the difference in warmth as soon as they'd screwed the boards onto one side of the house.

That's really interesting.

Would you mind posting a pic so we can see what it looks like?  Does it need planning permission (since it changes appearance of the house).

The flats at the top of my road had it done recently - one 30s brick 3 story block, half a dozen 50s 8ish story towers, half a dozen 50s 3-4 story blocks. They all (apart from the 30s block which looked tidy anyway) now look enormously better than they did before.

My wife's mother has also had it done on her 70's brick bungalow - again, looks fairly tidy as it's simply white render. She's seen a huge improvement in comfort, though as she also had ground-source underfloor heating fitted at the same time it's impossible to know how much is attributable to the insulation.

A brief look at the links above suggest we might have a fighting chance of getting some money to do it here - single-skin Victorian semi, with an enormous gable wall that's ripe for insulating. No real point in doing the front as it's half window, and I don't much care if the side and back are render rather than brick.

[Hot Flatus]

@mole man

I appreciate your point, but in my case the house was already rendered. The render was knackered and needed redoing, totally, with a degree of urgency. The cost of this would have been around £6000.

The insulation cost £8000, however the local energy savings trust were running a pilot scheme offering grants for people with single brick wall houses to have this insulation fitted. They were in a hurry to offload the cash they had.

At the time, after calculating that the insulation option would cost thus £2000, I didn't particularly give a shit about the energy savings claimed by the salesman, although to be fair he didn't really push them. It wasn't really a factor in the decision. As it turned out, I was astounded by the difference the insulation made, and the house looks much better now than it did with its shitty render.

[Bledlow]

Hundreds of millions seems adequate to me to have an investment programme as well as to pay reasonable investment returns.   It seems to me that the energy companies want guaranteed profits which is vulgar as well as absurd.   

Just my POV you understand.

Whether hundreds of millions (or £1.4 billion) is grossly over the top or hopelessly inadequate depends on the size of the firm, & the capital intensity of the business. Electricity generators are very capital intensive indeed.

SSE had a turnover of £31.724 bn. That means profits were moderate by the standards of most businesses. It invested £1.707 bn.

Normally, I'd agree that it's absurd for a business to expect the state to guarantee it profits, but electricity & gas supply businesses aren't normal. The trouble with the energy sector is that everything in it is very heavily dependent on state policy. Profits of generators, returns on investment - the lot. The government has targets (e.g. enough electricity to avoid blackouts), & it wants firms to meet them, but whether it is rational in business terms for firms to co-operate depends on the rules they operate under. It's therefore reasonable for the firms to expect the state to set the rules so that they make profits (but not too much), as long as they co-operate with government aims & run their businesses efficiently. The last is entirely within their own control, of course.

[Asterix, the former Gaul.]

If the bricks are Ok, surely repointing is the way forward?  Other solutions sound like a bodge to me.  I can still remember the stone-cladding disasters of the last century!

Well built and maintained brick walls are simple and effective, mess with them and who knows what might happen.  Good pointing lasts for decades.

[Polar Bear]

We've decided to fully renovate Bear Towers and as part of the job we're considering external insulating cladding.   The solid wall construction of our pre 1876 home is apparently about 1/3^rd less efficient at heat retention than a cavity wall.   The rendered finish would be quite attractive and we're considering what colour to paint.

In terms of cost it is projected to take nearly 30 years to reap the overall financial benefit but we're looking at keeping warmer now as well as watching money in the bank losing real value due to interest rates vs inflation.   Also, the recent pricing trends are well and truly inflation busting, a trend I don't see changing in the medium term.   

We went to see a property near us that has been externally insulated yesterday.   The chap was enthusing about the extra noise insulation as well as heat and enthusing about how he hasn't needed to put his heating on yet this autumn.   Well, neither have we but we're mid-terrace and he's on an exposed end of terrace.   Also, we're not prone to whacking on the heating just like that though I suspect that as we age our resistance will weaken.   

If nothing else, it will add real value to the house.   

[matthew]

My sister and brother-inlaw have just done this. They have a single skin brick house where the existing render was failing on some walls. As they bought the property to renovate (he's a builder by trade) they have been able to get the insulation installed for a similar cost to just repairing the render.

The added benefit is that as this is the government / energy firm scheme the installers have to be registered so he hasn't had to do this job. Yes it has cost them money but while the energy firm had all the scaffold up he has been able to access and repair the roof.

ETA: I should also add that they are already noticing the reduced heat loss. When I visited on Saturday they were using the wood burning stove to heat the whole house and dry some plaster work.

[ian]

This seems like a good time to introduce something I like to call "The Brick Theory":

Sit in a traffic jam in any modern city, and you'll see buildings of all ages and states of repair.  Disregard anything built in the last 10 years or so.  Of the remainder, mentally sort them into the ones that look good and the ones that look naff (note I'm specifically referring to overall aesthetic naffness, rather than specific indicators like dirt, stains or disrepair).  Observe the high correlation between naffness and non-brick surfaces.  Marvel at how the shabbiest old brick wall with water damage and peeling paint still manages to be more aesthetically pleasing than UV faded plastic cladding or stained 60s concrete.

The lesson, I think, should be obvious...

Whilst I mostly agree, bear in mind that most of the shoddy brick buildings have been rendered over for just that reason. Render, like brickwork, needs periodic maintenance. One thing I noted during my recent house viewing odyssey is that while people are willing to page vast sums for property, they're generally not inclined to paying those small sums to maintain it.

Mind you, I reserve a special ignoble distinction for pebble-dashing, which just looks like a dinosaur ate Wolverhampton and then threw up on a house.

[Hot Flatus]

@pb

Wrt to painting the special render...you don't need to. You can choose the colour

[tatanab]

I've been  interested because I live in a 1930s 9" walled house.  I've seen the following:-
1.  Down the road from me a house has been clad.  The cladding seems to be at least 4" thick and has been finished with coloured render.  It looks a little odd cut around gas meters etc hung on the outside of the house.
2.  A housing association is working on council houses that might be from the same period.  The cladding they are using looks to be about 2" thick and they seem to be covering it with conventional render that can be painted.

I am a bit wary because I recall in the early 80s there were a number of companies pushing wall coatings (still available) which claimed to have some weather proofing and insulating properties.  I recall hearing first hand of failed adhesion and sub standard repairs. 

I think I'd want to wait a number of years to see how well they cope in our particular climate.  They could easily fall out of favour just as polystyrene ceiling tiles did (to use an extreme example).  I understand that the current subsidies are an attraction.  I was told that the house down the road cost something like £20k to cover but only £10k was paid by the householder.