Author Topic: Novice running  (Read 8095 times)

Re: Novice running
« Reply #25 on: January 05, 2015, 11:12:01 pm »
There is online resource, couch to 5k.   

Thanks for this and for all the affirmations. Maybe I'll have another go and start even slower next time.

fboab

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Re: Novice running
« Reply #26 on: January 06, 2015, 12:20:47 am »
I did zombie running build up to 5k- more interesting than couch to 5k because you have a story.
I still got broken by running because I am too fat to run.
(I have wear and tear arthritis in my knees. I had had knee  trouble before and thought it would be OK if I built up slowly enough. No it wasn't. I could possibly run if I was 50kg and under 30.)
TSS is not Total Sex Score, Chris!

Re: Novice running
« Reply #27 on: January 06, 2015, 08:33:52 am »
I did zombie running build up to 5k- more interesting than couch to 5k because you have a story.
I still got broken by running because I am too fat to run.
(I have wear and tear arthritis in my knees. I had had knee  trouble before and thought it would be OK if I built up slowly enough. No it wasn't. I could possibly run if I was 50kg and under 30.)

I'm 144KG and 34 so bigger and older than both of those problems and I've probably run around 2500KM now in the 4 years since I started. I've re done c25k about 3 or 4 times after breaks from running for various things and I'm ramping back up to half marathon distance now as part of operation loose loads of weight before my wedding.

The one thing I did was barefoot running not because it's mechanically better (which it is btw) but because I had to start again but modify how I ran so that I landed toes first rather than heel first, I now do this automatically and my running is loads more comfortable with shin and knee pain a thing of the past.

Just takes a while to teach yourself to walk and run differently but after a while it comes quite naturally.

D.
Somewhat of a professional tea drinker.


Re: Novice running
« Reply #28 on: January 06, 2015, 10:50:43 am »
My recommendation is to forget logging distance, log duration.

To start with, under 5min. Total. Not 5 min + warm up, just jog for 5min, no more, and go slow.

Do that no more than 3 times a week for at least a week.

Then up it to 7-10min. Go slow. Even job walk jog walk. Feel the front of your shins every day; if there is any tenderness, have a gap of at least 2 days before doing *any* running then drop back to previous duration.

After 2 weeks of that, you can increase to 15min and go a little faster.

At all times, try to be kind to the earth. Don't pound it. Run soft.

I used to teach track and field to 11 year olds. Every single one of those kids could run a mile without stopping, including Downs syndrome kids with asthma.
<i>Marmite slave</i>

Re: Novice running
« Reply #29 on: January 06, 2015, 11:11:19 am »
Splendid post, Mr C !

Re: Novice running
« Reply #30 on: January 06, 2015, 11:25:59 am »
Hmm, this thread is semi-convincing me it might be good to try running again.

It was convincing me of the opposite.   ;D

It's done a fairly good job of convincing me that buying some running shoes, going round the park a couple of times, then finding my local parkrun would not be a good idea.

Quote
The only running I do these days is running away.

I try not even to do that.

Yep, it has convinced me that with my existing wear / damage in my hip running would be a bad idea and a rapid route to a hip replacement. I'll stick to cycling as it is low impact articulation of the joint and apparently better for it.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Novice running
« Reply #31 on: January 06, 2015, 11:33:48 am »
If I need to build up to running any worthwhile distance THAT slowly, there is no way I would reach the enjoyable stage before giving up due to lack of progress.

I'll stick with riding. I enjoyed riding within a couple of hours of first getting on a bike.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Novice running
« Reply #32 on: January 06, 2015, 01:06:42 pm »
There is a lot of caution in beginner prgrams (litigation anyone?), but everyone is individual. Fundamentally, humans are built to run, but the lack of use our sedentary lifestyles encourage mean that there is usually a time to adjust.

My biggest prblem with running is that I like to run fast and my weight and current conditoin mean that One of) my achilles suffer when I rush at intervals too early and too hard. That's a 'feeling younger than your age' problem and a 3+ month fix. Cycling seems able to continue even when my ankle was crocked, and tis year I'm aiming to focus on the bike by choice.

Biggest thing with running is learning to listen to your body. I agree with the poster above about barefoot and associated running approaches, but again the adaption required from most of our starting point does demand a bit of care/patience.

The other thing is that running really is fun for short runs around the block and you can still go for a bike ride later.

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Novice running
« Reply #33 on: January 06, 2015, 01:16:53 pm »
The one thing I did was barefoot running not because it's mechanically better (which it is btw) but because I had to start again but modify how I ran so that I landed toes first rather than heel first, I now do this automatically and my running is loads more comfortable with shin and knee pain a thing of the past.

Just takes a while to teach yourself to walk and run differently but after a while it comes quite naturally.

You mean I've been doing it right all this time?  Cor.

I walk/run on my toes, moreso without shoes (though I avoid going without shoes), because my feet are unbearably sensitive and it minimises contact with cold/rough surfaces.  It's not a tendon issue, so it either means I'm autistic, or actually was a cat in a previous life.   ::-)
To ride the Windcheetah, first, you must embrace the cantilever...

Re: Novice running
« Reply #34 on: January 06, 2015, 01:32:41 pm »
In between the frivolity (which is entirely welcome) there is a lot of really helpful stuff here. Thanks all.

I am taking it easy but not as easy as some advise. I'm 49 and 14+ stone, but I seem to be able to manage comfortably about 20 minutes of slow, easy jogging (punctuated with 2 or 3 walking breathers) every other day. I'm really not one for overdoing this kind of thing.

I'm going to invest in some shoes and an assessment of the type needed here.

The other thing is that running really is fun for short runs around the block and you can still go for a bike ride later.

I ran this morning before cycling to work. I'm going to need a new smug-ometer; mine only goes up to 10.

 ;D
L'enfer, c'est les autos.

Re: Novice running
« Reply #35 on: January 06, 2015, 01:41:25 pm »
The one thing I did was barefoot running not because it's mechanically better (which it is btw) but because I had to start again but modify how I ran so that I landed toes first rather than heel first, I now do this automatically and my running is loads more comfortable with shin and knee pain a thing of the past.

Just takes a while to teach yourself to walk and run differently but after a while it comes quite naturally.

You mean I've been doing it right all this time?  Cor.

I walk/run on my toes, moreso without shoes (though I avoid going without shoes), because my feet are unbearably sensitive and it minimises contact with cold/rough surfaces.  It's not a tendon issue, so it either means I'm autistic, or actually was a cat in a previous life.   ::-)

Landing heel first is really bad for you and is the reason why a lot of people get buggered knees and shin splints because of the thumping impact up the leg. It's also the reason we see loads of shoes with cushioning for sports, cos buying shoes is easier than spending 6 months teaching yourself to run properly. As I'm fat no amount of cushioning did the trick so I spent the time.
Somewhat of a professional tea drinker.


Re: Novice running
« Reply #36 on: January 06, 2015, 01:56:13 pm »
The one thing I did was barefoot running not because it's mechanically better (which it is btw) but because I had to start again but modify how I ran so that I landed toes first rather than heel first, I now do this automatically and my running is loads more comfortable with shin and knee pain a thing of the past.

Just takes a while to teach yourself to walk and run differently but after a while it comes quite naturally.

You mean I've been doing it right all this time?  Cor.

I walk/run on my toes, moreso without shoes (though I avoid going without shoes), because my feet are unbearably sensitive and it minimises contact with cold/rough surfaces.  It's not a tendon issue, so it either means I'm autistic, or actually was a cat in a previous life.   ::-)

Landing heel first is really bad for you and is the reason why a lot of people get buggered knees and shin splints because of the thumping impact up the leg. It's also the reason we see loads of shoes with cushioning for sports, cos buying shoes is easier than spending 6 months teaching yourself to run properly. As I'm fat no amount of cushioning did the trick so I spent the time.


Whilst I am inclined to agree with you, I don't think there's much actual evidence to support this contention. Heel strikers don't generally suffer a thumping impact, but roll from raer to front of foot and the pronation does the job it's intended too - provides shock absorbtion for the lower leg. Also worth bearing in mind that most people don't have a single gait, but their biomechanics actually vary with speed, tiredness and mood. However, there's evidence all around that we'd rather spend money than put in time and effort to get better at stuff - even cycling isn't immune.

You're right though that with an investment in time to learn to run well - barefoot, chi, alexander etc - then most people will do much better and be less injured.

An interesting set of studioes done on achilles tendinopathy concluded that the only reliable indicator was calf strength, not gait. Weak calves induced significantly more achilles injuries than strong. I suspect this also relates to the onset of achilles injury during interval work - the weakness is probably relative to the load applied.

Mike - the forefoot striking cat;)

Re: Novice running
« Reply #37 on: January 06, 2015, 01:58:54 pm »
I've run more miles barefoot than I have with shoes on.

On hard surfaces I naturally land heel first. To do otherwise kind of contradicts the construction of our bodies. However this doesn't mean thumping heels down, it's a more rolling gait than with a shoe, heel touches, little impact and weight, increasing weight as toes come down, toes push off, almost 'flicking' behind you.

On rough surfaces such as boglands, tussocky grass or lakeland rocky paths (or ice), I ran and walk toe down, just like Kim described.
<i>Marmite slave</i>

Re: Novice running
« Reply #38 on: January 06, 2015, 02:09:41 pm »
I've run more miles barefoot than I have with shoes on.


Barefoot or with 'barefoot' shoes? Just interested.

I think your gait analysis is correct - no need to thump and actually a range of gaits work and can be efficient.

Mike

Re: Novice running
« Reply #39 on: January 06, 2015, 02:20:12 pm »
barefoot

I've done this in Australia and the UK, on roads, pavement, dirt tracks, rocky surfaces, snow and ice.

Worse surface was a road covered in plastic bottle tops from waterbottles during the Great North Run.
<i>Marmite slave</i>

Re: Novice running
« Reply #40 on: January 06, 2015, 02:54:35 pm »
The other thing is that running really is fun for short runs around the block and you can still go for a bike ride later.

This ^^^

As a running newbie I'm finding that running and cycling are complementary. I can get up, go for a 30 minute jog, come home and get showered, have breakfast and then cycle into work. To get 30 minutes hard cycling in (hard enough to work up a sweat) before breakfast just isn't going to work. It would take too long to get the bike out, find my windproofs, faff with lights etc.

If I want to go out for a couple of hours to work off some energy - I'll cycle. If I want to go out for 30 minutes, I'll run. If I want to get from A to B efficiently and its more than 15 minutes walking (and under, say, 6 miles), I'll utility cycle. That's the theory this week. I do retain the right to change my mind about this in a few months time, though.

Re: Novice running
« Reply #41 on: January 06, 2015, 06:21:25 pm »
Hmm, this thread is semi-convincing me it might be good to try running again.
It was convincing me of the opposite.   ;D
Three year's ago I would have totally agreed with you, Kim! But the grind of hotel-drive-work-nowhere to go at lunchtime-drive-hotel, mostly in the dark, convinced me I had to try something and I found I actually enjoy running (which hadn't really happened the previous times I'd had a go).
Mind you, if you'd asked me about gardening 20 years ago (something else you're not keen on) I'd have been against that as well.
"No matter how slow you go, you're still lapping everybody on the couch."

mattc

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Re: Novice running
« Reply #42 on: January 06, 2015, 06:27:06 pm »
That's a slippery slope - before you know it you'll be recommending G*lf.
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: Novice running
« Reply #43 on: January 06, 2015, 06:29:23 pm »
There is a negative chance of that ever happening!  ;D
(Apart from anything else, playing golf together was one of the things MrsC tried with her ex when their relationship was getting rocky.)
"No matter how slow you go, you're still lapping everybody on the couch."

simonp

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Re: Novice running
« Reply #44 on: January 06, 2015, 06:57:48 pm »
I managed to do a nasty injury in late 2010 - peroneal tendinitis caused by doing too much too soon. I went from almost nothing to 10k very quickly. I was ok until I did an interval session (400m intervals) and my ankle stopped working and I had to limp for 2 miles to get back to the office.

+1 to getting gait analysis. I’ve bought the same make of shoes ever since.

I’m playing football a lot at the moment - used to play indoors and stopped because of knee trouble. I now play on 3G Astroturf and it’s massively easier on my joints. I doubt I cover more than 5-6km in an hour but I don’t get sore. Running on tarmac is a lot harder on my body - much more so than a treadmill also.


Re: Novice running
« Reply #45 on: January 06, 2015, 11:09:02 pm »
Emphasizing duration over distance was a good way for me to start. Avoiding asphalt/tarmac/paved surfaces in favor of dirt, gravel, etc. when possible can save a lot of wear on the joints.

CrazyEnglishTriathlete

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Re: Novice running
« Reply #46 on: January 07, 2015, 06:53:49 am »
Loads of good advice above - especially on gait and shoes and not trying to do to much.  I was a reasonably good runner at school but cross-country was the only sporting activity which made me even more uncool than I already was so I gave up age 14 and didn't run seriously again until the age of 48 (two years ago).  Ten years before that I develop a persistent groin injury from playing indoor cricket and had got to the point where I wouldn't even run for a bus.  However, in the meantime I had discovered cycling and then long distance cycling, which kept me v. fit. 

The captain of our cycling club gave me some very good advice.  DON'T RUN TOO OFTEN.  I had more aerobic fitness than most runners from my cycle training.  And half the muscles I needed for running were like steel springs.  The other half, including the dodgy groin, were feeble.  Any engineering student will tell you this is a recipe for damaging the week muscles.  I took his advice and started gradually and only run once a week (that might be a bit extreme for some, who would like to get out more often).  Sometimes it would be two weeks between runs.  This way I was able to transfer my cycling fitness to running, adapt my body to running without injury. 

I went from zero to a half marathon in 5 months, and the following year did 2 marathons and this year a marathon and a 46-mile ultra-marathon (as well as 6 other marathons in training).  I'm giving up the serious running now as I don't have enough time to do this and cycling and I ENJOY CYCLING MORE. 

Two other bits of advice. 

1) I do stretch and cool down properly after every run (which I don't necessarily do after cycling). 
2) I'd echo the advice about running off road, especially if you get to longer distances.  If you run predominantly off-road its better to invest in a pair of trail running shoes rather than regular running shoes.  These have a little more ankle support and much better grip in the mud which will reduce the risk of twisting and slipping injuries.
Eddington Numbers 125 (imperial), 168 (metric) 518 (furlongs)  111 (nautical miles)

Re: Novice running
« Reply #47 on: March 06, 2017, 09:48:40 pm »
And here it is again.

Despite all the advice I overdid it last time. I was fairly good, but one morning I thought I was ready to run to work and I did. I actually walked about half of it, but it was still too much too soon*. I had painful shins and knees for several weeks and just decided it wasn't for me.

It might have stayed that way too if it weren't for a colleague suggesting a (short) triathlon this year.

So, I'm following the couch to 5k thing. It's not hugely different to my ad hoc approach, but I think I need the discipline.

I've also changed shoes. 2 years ago I invested in some proper shoes from a proper shop. They said I needed arches to push the inside of my feet up. I remember thinking it was weird at the time but assuming they knew what they were on about. However, I suspect that the shoes caused/contributed to the knee pains. I don't know, but I wonder whether it can be right to try to correct a foot after 50 years, especially when trying to teach that foot (and the other one) to run for the first time in ages.

So I got some neutral shoes last week and started running again on Saturday. The triathlon is in July. I'm two runs in. So far, so good.

(* let me know what colour/size you need for your 'Told You So' t-shirts)
L'enfer, c'est les autos.

Re: Novice running
« Reply #48 on: March 07, 2017, 08:35:03 am »
as a very novice runner with bad knees, the way I got through running every day in Feb was:
 - run / walk.  Start with 1:1 and build the run part up by 30 seconds a week so after 2 months you're at 5 mins run:1 min walk.  All your runs should be like that. I'm now at an hours running, still with walk breaks every 5 mins.
 - run slow on most of your runs.  Slower than that.  Get a GPS watch to check you're going slowly enough.
 - get a foam roller.  A lot of my knee pain turned out to be from tight connective tissue which is quite easy to fix : http://www.thekneepainguru.com/it-band-stretches-exercises-without-a-foam-roller/
 - shoes.. go to a shop with a treadmill and an expert to tell you what you need. 

triathlons are brilliant though, it's well worth getting through this bit!  [type 2 fun]

Re: Novice running
« Reply #49 on: March 07, 2017, 08:57:41 am »
Hi,  In a similar theme to the original post I have suddenly discovered I can run and that I enjoy it!  I agree that the simplicity of it really appeals rather than getting in and out of winter cycling kit.    Its also much easier to stay warm running this time of year than on a bike and you can give yourself similar punishment in a much shorter space of time.   As my partner is expecting it makes sense to switch to running for a while and minimize the time I am out of the house.   I have lost significant weight in the last year and stopped smoking so although I am still a big frame, its actually enjoyable to run now.   Its something I always wanted to do but never seriously felt I would be capable of. 

I was starting from the ground up with running and I am very conscious of injury so I started on the treadmill only with walk,run walk up to 5k.   I have been doing an hour or two of strengthening 3 or 4 times a week in the evenings in front of the tv.   Basic stability, kettle bell and body weight movements that focus on stability, especially for all the running specific muscles that cycling ignores..... http://www.runnersworld.com/training-video/ironstrength-workout.

In addition to that I fast walk 3-4 miles every lunch hour.

I have now progressed to 3 runs a week.

1. Interval run which is 3 x 8 minute intervals on the treadmill (lesser impact) and I am making them slightly quicker week by week
2. Out door 7 mile run which is a half mile warm up and warm down with a 6 mile tempo to run in the middle
3. Long run - which is at low intensity currently at 9 miles but will be increased by 10% each week

On the days I am not running I still walk and try to add some spin bike work to iron out my legs without impact.

My 10k time is down from 88 minutes to 57 minutes.   The thing that seems to be really working is the strength work in combination with the intervals.

Ive entered a marathon in October and im aiming for 4 hours.   I am also trying really hard to stretch daily and use a foam roller when I can stand it!

I have £40 running shoes from sport and soccer which matched my arch shape... I am going to our local running shop for my next pair with a gait analysis but while I am running in these without bother, or injury I am very hesitant to get rid of them. 

Does anyone know if a gait analysis also tells you how your foot strikes the ground?  I am trying really hard to run with a mid foot strike but would like some confirmation of that.