Climbing hills

[JohnR]

20% or steeper is an utterly different proposition. Steeper than 33% and you do need to be out of the saddle, leaning as far forward over the bars as possible.

I have to concede to this point if only for safety's sake. Last week I cycled to Marple and on the way back i decided to do a hill climb to make the ride worth the effort and rode up cowlishaw road which leads onto werneth low road from Marple Bridge to Hyde which is a 20% hill which has a 23% bit at the top. I more than always sit down for hills and did so for this one which meant my front wheel felt really light, so much so that I leaned forward so much my face was well over the 'bars to stop me doing a wheelie. Should have stood up and transferred weight over the 'bars to keep the wheel down as i was going so slow it was difficult to keep in a straight line on this narrow lane.

[Wascally Weasel]

Steeper than 33% and you do need to be out of the saddle, leaning as far forward over the bars as possible.

I find that while I do need to be out of the saddle, I don't need to lean forward over the handlebars at all.  It makes it too difficult to walk uphill that way...   

[caerau]

Steeper than 33% and you do need to be out of the saddle, leaning as far forward over the bars as possible.

I find that while I do need to be out of the saddle, I don't need to lean forward over the handlebars at all.  It makes it too difficult to walk uphill that way...   

Indeed, not that there are many climbs in the UK, outside of hairpins on Hardknott pass that are 33% for any appreciable length.*  I'm walking on anything beyond 25% unless it's very short. 


*Unless you go off-road I suppose

[velosam]

So I went back to Richmond park, in fact am here now.  So I did it again, my legs feel like death and my knees hurt but I did do it.  It wasn't perfect and I struggled, really struggled on the last 80 metres where I was grunting like a pig and thinking can't stop now.


So not bad but technique could be better.  Definitely needed the triple and thanks for all the advice.

[contango]

Anyone who says you can sit and spin up any hill has not ridden up anything really steep. Try that on some hills and you'll lift the front wheel and start to tip backwards.

I got up a hill that was somewhere north of 20% with a rear pannier and stayed seated the entire time. Admittedly it took several goes to get started again after stopping for a breather, but it worked. Other hills in the area signposted between 15-18% were also defeated while seated.

I don't tend to spin much though, when dealing with a hill like that I'm in the granny gear with a cadence of probably about 40.

[contango]

Now I have read all the advice re climbing hills but yesterday it all went to pieces.  I went around Richmond Park and tried to climb up Sawyers Hill anticlockwise. 

First attempt middle chainring, lowest gear - struggled and had to get out of the saddle for the last 50m or so and it was stop start.

Second attempt no better despite smallest front chaining - I have a triple and practically lowest rear gear.

It was just pathetic and my quads were killng me on the way home.

Is it just down to not enough strength or technique, but I just could not spin any more.

Cheers

Remind me, is Sawyers Hill the one you go up if you go in through the Kingston gate and turn right at the little roundabout?

No, the climb after the roundabout you describe is known as Dark Hill. The one after that you descend if continuing anticlockwise is Broomfield Hill (the one with the long sweeping bend).

Sawyer's Hill is the one between Roehampton and Richmond gates.

Ah yes, I remember now.

Broomfield Hill is the fun one (at least if you're going anticlockwise).

Sawyer's Hill caused me some aggro too when I started cycling, until I realised that there was no rule against getting in a low gear and just keeping the pedals turning even if I am going only just fast enough to not tip over sideways.

[contango]

Finally - if you want some real little hills to practice on - go to somewhere really hilly or come up here to visit the Peaks; once you have done several 250-350m climbs  at 4-8% and more back to back the n I suspect 40m in Richmond park will give you no problems whatsoever and you will have no fear of any hill.

Indeed; the thing that improved my hill-climbing more than anything else was not living in London.

The first time I cycled outside of London I thought I was in reasonably good shape - I could cope with just about any of the hills within about 20 miles of home. Then I saw some proper hills and ended up walking most of them. A year later I rode more or less the same route (partly because my friend invited me again, partly because it was a nice route, and partly because I wanted to see if I could do the entire route without walking anything) and found myself constantly thinking "there's a big hill around here somewhere, where is it?" shortly before realising I had just finished climbing it.

My issue for a long time was that I'd find a hill that was difficult and look for ways to avoid it. After my first utter failure to cope with hills outside London I decided I needed to tackle hills, so I planned routes to take in as many as I could. There aren't all that many in London, so sometimes my routes were a bit tortuous as I sought to take in as many as I could sensibly get to. Then I looked at the map and worked out how to get to the Surrey Hills...

Agreed: Honking is fine for railway bridges.  It's occasionally useful as an arse-break.  But for proper hills I find it only works at power levels I can't sustain, and tends to cause asthma attacks.  If you're not asthmatic, it's probably good training, thobut.

Your power:weight ratio may vary.

The ones I really hate are the ones that are concave, then convex, then concave. So from the bottom it looks like a short sharp hill but having used sheer brute force to get to the "top" you realise it wasn't actually the top and the hill continues for a mile after you've blown up.

[velosam]

Sawyer's Hill caused me some aggro too when I started cycling, until I realised that there was no rule against getting in a low gear and just keeping the pedals turning even if I am going only just fast enough to not tip over sideways.

I have a mental block because unless I have the cadence up to around 60 I think I am going to wreck my knees.  I also have a mental block with that hill because I see it rising up towards me and just want to finish it.  I do wonder how much of my aggro is mental.

[Otto]

Sawyer's Hill caused me some aggro too when I started cycling, until I realised that there was no rule against getting in a low gear and just keeping the pedals turning even if I am going only just fast enough to not tip over sideways.

I have a mental block because unless I have the cadence up to around 60 I think I am going to wreck my knees.  I also have a mental block with that hill because I see it rising up towards me and just want to finish it.  I do wonder how much of my aggro is mental.

We have a hill near where I live like that Kidds Hill .. localy known as The Wall.. it goes in a straight line straight to the top ... When I ride up I don't worry about cadence or speed I just plonk it iin the lowest gear and ride up sometimes so slowly the garmin switches off..

Don't over think things don't worry about cadence or attack speed or anything else just ride what feels comfortable and get to the top....

[LEE]

I'm not familiar with Richmond Park hills.  (Though I think I swooped down one on a FNRTTC ride once).

We have some hills in Hampshire that are quite steep though.

When I first rode up them they were very difficult, now when I ride up them they are still very difficult .. but now I know I'll get up OK....eventually. 
I don't get filled with dread as I approach Combe Gibbet any more, I know that 1st gear and time will get me up it.

Just keep riding up them, pacing yourself, and eventually fitness will kick in.  Even if you are forced to dismount simply try to get a little further next time.
I've walked a few hills in my time, most recently on my Single-Speed where the ratio of Gravity:MyThighMuscles on Watership Down eventually shifted too far to the left.

Pick a low gear, sit up and push.

Never has "No Pain, No Gain" been more appropriate than for cycling up hills.

[Ningishzidda]

I have a 22/44 chainset and a 27 - 12 cassette.

If there's going to be a >30% on the route, I might fit the riveted group from a MTB n - 32 cassette.

The 22 to 27 will get me up a 30%, with slow and deliberate full circle pedal action. About 60 rpm at 5 kmh.

[mrcharly-YHT]

Anyone who says you can sit and spin up any hill has not ridden up anything really steep. Try that on some hills and you'll lift the front wheel and start to tip backwards.

I got up a hill that was somewhere north of 20% with a rear pannier and stayed seated the entire time. Admittedly it took several goes to get started again after stopping for a breather, but it worked. Other hills in the area signposted between 15-18% were also defeated while seated.

I don't tend to spin much though, when dealing with a hill like that I'm in the granny gear with a cadence of probably about 40.

Try that on hills steeper than 30%.

[LEE]

I'm certain I wouldn't re-gear my bike for a 30% climb. 
I'd walk if necessary because there really aren't that many 30% climbs about and MTB gearing would most likely mess up the rest of my ride.

[Ningishzidda]

I'm certain I wouldn't re-gear my bike for a 30% climb. 
I'd walk if necessary because there really aren't that many 30% climbs about and MTB gearing would most likely mess up the rest of my ride.

Riding in an extremely low gear is kinder on the ankles and Achilles than walking a bicycle up a 1:3 gradient.

[Si_Co]

Anyone who says you can sit and spin up any hill has not ridden up anything really steep. Try that on some hills and you'll lift the front wheel and start to tip backwards.

I got up a hill that was somewhere north of 20% with a rear pannier and stayed seated the entire time. Admittedly it took several goes to get started again after stopping for a breather, but it worked. Other hills in the area signposted between 15-18% were also defeated while seated.

I don't tend to spin much though, when dealing with a hill like that I'm in the granny gear with a cadence of probably about 40.

Try that on hills steeper than 30%.

Only if you have a burning desire to find out how on earth you unclip from a bike that's above you^*. BTDTGTTS.

*Its actually trickier than you think

[mrcharly-YHT]

I'm certain I wouldn't re-gear my bike for a 30% climb. 
I'd walk if necessary because there really aren't that many 30% climbs about and MTB gearing would most likely mess up the rest of my ride.

Riding in an extremely low gear is kinder on the ankles and Achilles than walking a bicycle up a 1:3 gradient.

Agreed. And if you have a laden bike, it is actually really difficult to push up such a steep slope.

[Ningishzidda]

A long, long time ago, there was a bloke with a pair of donkeys at Porlock who would charge cyclists to ride a donkey holding their bikes across the donkey.


"Clovelly's High Street drops 400 metres in elevation over the course of it's 800 metre length - which is a 50% gradient!"
Tourists could pay to ride down Clovelly on a bread basket ( sled ) restrained by a donkey, and then be towed back up behind the donkey.
Bicycles aren't allowed. There's a Landrover taxi these days.

[CrazyEnglishTriathlete]

Sawyer's Hill caused me some aggro too when I started cycling, until I realised that there was no rule against getting in a low gear and just keeping the pedals turning even if I am going only just fast enough to not tip over sideways.

I have a mental block because unless I have the cadence up to around 60 I think I am going to wreck my knees.  I also have a mental block with that hill because I see it rising up towards me and just want to finish it.  I do wonder how much of my aggro is mental.

My younger son has a similar problem of wanting to see the finish of a hill.  We were in Ireland on holiday last week and, having manfully got most of the way on the road that goes through the middle of Clare Island (reaching 100m from 50m) he saw that the summit he had set his heart on was in fact very slightly lower than the actually highest point.  Seeing the tarmac stretching up, albeit very slightly, he got off and walked.  I've done much the same thing a long long time ago. 

If you ride all the time in very big gears with a low cadence you may damage them, but on the occasional hill, using a low cadence is not going to do any damage.  On the other cycle ride we did on our Irish holiday I was almost stumped by a hill on a little lane in Clew Bay that reached a maximum height above sea level of 27m.  The problem was that it did this straight up the side of a drumlin hill, so reached this princely height 100m away from the sea.  I can tell you now that my cadence (even with a triple chainring and with most of the monster climbs in the Alps done last year) was a lot lower than 60 as it is on any hill which I find hard (which is more than some people might think).

Oh, and chapeau for beating the hill.  Contrary to some advice above, if I've struggled up a hill I felt I ought to have done better, I'll seek it out when I next get the chance, even if it is on a far flung Audax event, if only to confirm that it was diabolical as I first thought.

[Kim]

I also have a mental block with that hill because I see it rising up towards me and just want to finish it.  I do wonder how much of my aggro is mental.

My younger son has a similar problem of wanting to see the finish of a hill.  We were in Ireland on holiday last week and, having manfully got most of the way on the road that goes through the middle of Clare Island (reaching 100m from 50m) he saw that the summit he had set his heart on was in fact very slightly lower than the actually highest point.  Seeing the tarmac stretching up, albeit very slightly, he got off and walked.  I've done much the same thing a long long time ago

I find having studied the contour map properly (or having contours displayed on my Garmin) helped a lot with that, when I was less good at pacing myself when climbing than I am now.  YMMV.

[caerau]

When it comes to spotting the true summit of a climb, nothing in my experience, beats having the profile in advance on a GPS device.  Very handy for telling you not to put all effort into a false summit.


Of course, I've said it before and I'll say it again, it's a double edged sword.  Some climbing profiles on them look like a an infinite wall of death which can be extremely demoralising.  I suspect climbs like that don't really exist in the southeast though I could be wrong.

[Ningishzidda]

For going climbing hills on a bicycle, its handy to know at what exercise intensity you suffer microtrauma. This is done by riding simulations on a turbo and experiencing tenderness or stiffness the following day.
Most recreation cyclists are afraid to do this.

Repeating this over and over eventually makes climbing up hills less uncomfortable at the same speed or equally as uncomfortable at a faster speed.

[CrazyEnglishTriathlete]

When it comes to spotting the true summit of a climb, nothing in my experience, beats having the profile in advance on a GPS device.  Very handy for telling you not to put all effort into a false summit.


Of course, I've said it before and I'll say it again, it's a double edged sword.  Some climbing profiles on them look like a an infinite wall of death which can be extremely demoralising.  I suspect climbs like that don't really exist in the southeast though I could be wrong.

There aren't many hills in the South East with a total elevation of more than 150m, however, the definition of an infinite wall of death is probably a variable one.  El Supremo found one in Kent which climbed 160m in about 5km, which to CET Junior (with 80km in his legs at age 12) was akin to an infinite wall of death.  My definition of an infinite wall of death is the Col du Galibier.  However, by process of accumulation it is possible to generate some very hilly rides in the South East - there is a circuit of Ashmansworth - East Woodhay - Combe Gibbet & Faccombe on the Hampshire - Berkshire border which has 500m ascent in 21km, which is similar to some of the hard sections of the Cambrian Series perms.  After a few circuits of this, a speed bump can feel like a mountain.

In my experience, it is rarely the climb with the most horrible profile that gets me but one that I didn't expect.  So a recce on GPS profiles (or in my Luddite case Ordnance Survey maps) is helpful.  But it is still possible to be caught out (like the hill near Llangollen that has no Ordnance Survey arrow, a little sign at the bottom warning of a 13% gradient and a 120m elevation in 700m.....) 

[caerau]

When it comes to spotting the true summit of a climb, nothing in my experience, beats having the profile in advance on a GPS device.  Very handy for telling you not to put all effort into a false summit.


Of course, I've said it before and I'll say it again, it's a double edged sword.  Some climbing profiles on them look like a an infinite wall of death which can be extremely demoralising.  I suspect climbs like that don't really exist in the southeast though I could be wrong.

There aren't many hills in the South East with a total elevation of more than 150m, however, the definition of an infinite wall of death is probably a variable one.  El Supremo found one in Kent which climbed 160m in about 5km, which to CET Junior (with 80km in his legs at age 12) was akin to an infinite wall of death.  My definition of an infinite wall of death is the Col du Galibier.  However, by process of accumulation it is possible to generate some very hilly rides in the South East - there is a circuit of Ashmansworth - East Woodhay - Combe Gibbet & Faccombe on the Hampshire - Berkshire border which has 500m ascent in 21km, which is similar to some of the hard sections of the Cambrian Series perms.  After a few circuits of this, a speed bump can feel like a mountain.

In my experience, it is rarely the climb with the most horrible profile that gets me but one that I didn't expect.  So a recce on GPS profiles (or in my Luddite case Ordnance Survey maps) is helpful.  But it is still possible to be caught out (like the hill near Llangollen that has no Ordnance Survey arrow, a little sign at the bottom warning of a 13% gradient and a 120m elevation in 700m.....) 

This is very true, back in the days a couple of years ago in the days when I first managed to ascend my local nasty climb (Caerphilly Mountain) in one go I designed a route to go over the famed Rhigos and Bwlch climbs in the Rhondda-Cynon-Taff.  Despite being far far higher than Caerphilly Mt both of those turned to to be a lot easier, I breathed a sigh of relief at the top of Bwlch knowing I'd done it all and it was all down hill home.


Except it wasn't - I'd routed home to Cardiff through Tonyrefail and it just happens to go through a village called Gilfach Goch - there is a blip on the climbing profile there I hadn't noticed - I know ALL about it it now      Worst climb on the ride (maybe excepting Caerphilly but that's early on) - 16% or more and fairly extended.  After 2000 m upwards already this was not good - it still gets me to this day when I do the ride, although now I'm expecting it, it's lost its real bite.

[Ningishzidda]

If a cyclist calculates their gears in ‘Development’ instead of the Olde English ‘inches’ they can work out the amount of rise per pedalstroke for a gradient.
Obviously, when the gearing development is low, the rise is low and Newtons per meter per second is low.
If a cyclist’s ‘all day’ riding capability is 125 Watts average, 125 Newtons per meter per second can be back-calculated to give a gear development for gradients.

For instance, climbing a steady 8 % on a 22 ring and 25 sprocket takes me approx. 125 Watts at 4 mph.
At this speed, the half mile 8 % of Old Wyche Road, Great Malvern takes me less than ten minutes. At the top, I lift the chain onto the big ring, drop it onto a smaller sprocket and ride along Jubilee Drive as if Old Wyche Road never happened.
 

[Legs]

"Clovelly's High Street drops 400 metres in elevation over the course of it's 800 metre length - which is a 50% gradient!"

I felt I had to check this out.  The really steep bit is from just before the hairpin to Temple Bar Cottage, which is about 170m, over the course of which the elevation drops from 100m to 40m (so still a fairly lethal average gradient of 35%).  Even Higher Clovelly is only 200m above sea level.

If a cyclist’s ‘all day’ riding capability is 125 Watts average, 125 Newtons per meter per second can be back-calculated to give a gear development for gradients.

Newton.metres per second, surely?