Author Topic: Base training  (Read 121586 times)

zigzag

  • unfuckwithable
Re: Base training
« Reply #1625 on: May 17, 2019, 10:06:36 pm »
since my big week in italy three weeks ago (1300tss) i haven't yet been on a turbo and only did a couple outdoor rides. pondering whether to do a ramp test this weekend or just resume at my previous level. i have got four weeks to train before my next longish break.

Re: Base training
« Reply #1626 on: May 18, 2019, 10:37:42 am »
since my big week in italy three weeks ago (1300tss) i haven't yet been on a turbo and only did a couple outdoor rides. pondering whether to do a ramp test this weekend or just resume at my previous level. i have got four weeks to train before my next longish break.

That's some training load - I trust your 320w FTP served you well up the slopey bits!


zigzag

  • unfuckwithable
Re: Base training
« Reply #1627 on: May 18, 2019, 11:20:29 am »
since my big week in italy three weeks ago (1300tss) i haven't yet been on a turbo and only did a couple outdoor rides. pondering whether to do a ramp test this weekend or just resume at my previous level. i have got four weeks to train before my next longish break.

That's some training load - I trust your 320w FTP served you well up the slopey bits!
thanks, no problem up the hills, only my right knee started aching towards the end, most likely from overuse (it happened before when going from typical few-hour rides to very long ones straight away). now two weeks later the knee feels fine again.

Re: Base training
« Reply #1628 on: May 18, 2019, 02:18:56 pm »
thanks, no problem up the hills, only my right knee started aching towards the end, most likely from overuse (it happened before when going from typical few-hour rides to very long ones straight away). now two weeks later the knee feels fine again.

Good to hear it's healed. I'm expecting similar sore bits (right knee being prime candidate!) when I do a ride across France in July. Cannot really prepare adequately for such a massive ramp up in volume and without recovery days. The main card I have to play is just to be as fit as possible so that the intensity of each day is generally low compared to usual riding.

simonp

  • Omnomnomnipotent.
Re: Base training
« Reply #1629 on: May 19, 2019, 06:55:33 pm »
Although Friday's training was ok, today's was not. Still got heavy legs - I'm going to do zone 2 rides only between now and next weekend.

zigzag

  • unfuckwithable
Re: Base training
« Reply #1630 on: May 19, 2019, 09:18:32 pm »
Good to hear it's healed. I'm expecting similar sore bits (right knee being prime candidate!) when I do a ride across France in July. Cannot really prepare adequately for such a massive ramp up in volume and without recovery days. The main card I have to play is just to be as fit as possible so that the intensity of each day is generally low compared to usual riding.

ride across france sounds fab, especially if there is no need to rush - the knees might be fine then? did a (poor attempt at) ramp test today, it was too hot in the room and the fan wasn't cooling much, so aborted fairly early which suggested an ftp of 292. i've updated it to 310 which feels about right.

Re: Base training
« Reply #1631 on: May 28, 2019, 09:43:29 am »
Ramp test today. Small increase to 251, which is the first time this year I've been above 250.
I think that doing the ramp test on the smart turbo is causing my to fail early because my cadence ramps with the effort, and I end up being limited by how long I can breathe at a high rate (to support a cadence > 105). My normal cadence is around 90, and so hitting 115 at the end of the ramp test is probably not ideal. I remember when I did it on the dumb trainer by shifting gears, my legs felt much more like they do at the end of a TT - just unable to generate power. The last few times I end up with OK legs and sore ribs! I'm gonna try to shift up every time I go above 100rpm next time and see what happens!
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/56564070-ramp-test

Re: Base training
« Reply #1632 on: May 28, 2019, 10:47:51 am »
Ramp test today. Small increase to 251, which is the first time this year I've been above 250.
I think that doing the ramp test on the smart turbo is causing my to fail early because my cadence ramps with the effort, and I end up being limited by how long I can breathe at a high rate (to support a cadence > 105). My normal cadence is around 90, and so hitting 115 at the end of the ramp test is probably not ideal. I remember when I did it on the dumb trainer by shifting gears, my legs felt much more like they do at the end of a TT - just unable to generate power. The last few times I end up with OK legs and sore ribs! I'm gonna try to shift up every time I go above 100rpm next time and see what happens!
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/56564070-ramp-test

For the last couple of Winters I have deliberately trained at a range of cadences on the turbo and worked on my spinning.   Most of my intervals are currently done in the 100-110 range.   When I was doing sprint efforts a few weeks back I was hitting 170RPM.   I believe it can be trained but I suppose you should concentrate on specific areas rather than trying to do everything.   I do the higher cadence reps sitting up, though, as I find the breathing a bit easier.

High cadence drills certainly help on the drag strip courses where you get a tailwind.

simonp

  • Omnomnomnipotent.
Re: Base training
« Reply #1633 on: May 28, 2019, 11:24:46 am »
Having struggled round 200, 400, 300 and 600 (in that order), I now have to work on fitness (but first my legs need to stop hurting) for PBP.

Not sure what plan to follow yet.

Re: Base training
« Reply #1634 on: May 28, 2019, 02:23:08 pm »
Ramp test today. Small increase to 251, which is the first time this year I've been above 250.
I think that doing the ramp test on the smart turbo is causing my to fail early because my cadence ramps with the effort, and I end up being limited by how long I can breathe at a high rate (to support a cadence > 105). My normal cadence is around 90, and so hitting 115 at the end of the ramp test is probably not ideal. I remember when I did it on the dumb trainer by shifting gears, my legs felt much more like they do at the end of a TT - just unable to generate power. The last few times I end up with OK legs and sore ribs! I'm gonna try to shift up every time I go above 100rpm next time and see what happens!
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/56564070-ramp-test

For the last couple of Winters I have deliberately trained at a range of cadences on the turbo and worked on my spinning.   Most of my intervals are currently done in the 100-110 range.   When I was doing sprint efforts a few weeks back I was hitting 170RPM.   I believe it can be trained but I suppose you should concentrate on specific areas rather than trying to do everything.   I do the higher cadence reps sitting up, though, as I find the breathing a bit easier.

High cadence drills certainly help on the drag strip courses where you get a tailwind.
I fully appreciate I need to practise my spinning (I can do spin ups to 150rpm or so, so I'm terrible), but I don't think the edge of the envelope of the ramp test is the right place to be putting it into action! My ribs hurt now! I don't do drag strips, but downhills are definitely an aera I can improve on.

simonp

  • Omnomnomnipotent.
Re: Base training
« Reply #1635 on: May 28, 2019, 02:31:14 pm »
My downhill spinning record is 67kph on a 65" gear. That was >200rpm and I could not manage it for long.

Re: Base training
« Reply #1636 on: May 28, 2019, 03:44:37 pm »
My downhill spinning record is 67kph on a 65" gear. That was >200rpm and I could not manage it for long.

Yeah, I hit the brakes well before that on the road.   At that cadence you're really just hanging on.

simonp

  • Omnomnomnipotent.
Re: Base training
« Reply #1637 on: May 28, 2019, 03:48:58 pm »
My downhill spinning record is 67kph on a 65" gear. That was >200rpm and I could not manage it for long.

Yeah, I hit the brakes well before that on the road.   At that cadence you're really just hanging on.

It was on the Brevet Cymru, west of Builth Wells on the A483, with a tail wind, with a roller-coaster dip and a timely gust.

I tried to match that speed at the same spot on Saturday on the 600k, with aero wheels, and gears, and could not quite match it.


Re: Base training
« Reply #1638 on: May 29, 2019, 10:37:43 am »
Ramp test today. Small increase to 251, which is the first time this year I've been above 250.
I think that doing the ramp test on the smart turbo is causing my to fail early because my cadence ramps with the effort, and I end up being limited by how long I can breathe at a high rate (to support a cadence > 105). My normal cadence is around 90, and so hitting 115 at the end of the ramp test is probably not ideal. I remember when I did it on the dumb trainer by shifting gears, my legs felt much more like they do at the end of a TT - just unable to generate power. The last few times I end up with OK legs and sore ribs! I'm gonna try to shift up every time I go above 100rpm next time and see what happens!
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/56564070-ramp-test

I think it depends on your trainer but I always end ramp tests at high cadences, because it is easier on my trainer (Tacx Vortex Smart).  I'm pretty comfortable at 110-115 (on flat pedals) and find myself up there on harder intervals, including the end of the ramp test.  I could try to lower my cadence but I'd have to stop sooner. 

I also find it a bit easier in higher gears.  But I try to always keep it in the same gear as I want a replicable test, not to cheat to get a high score!

simonp

  • Omnomnomnipotent.
Re: Base training
« Reply #1639 on: May 29, 2019, 10:49:00 am »
Lower cadence tends to be more muscular; higher more about heart and lungs. Intervals significantly above threshold are always >100 rpm for me, and sometimes >110.

Re: Base training
« Reply #1640 on: May 29, 2019, 04:26:30 pm »
Ramp test today. Small increase to 251, which is the first time this year I've been above 250.
I think that doing the ramp test on the smart turbo is causing my to fail early because my cadence ramps with the effort,

?

If on a smart trainer, your cadence should be self-selected; so if it's rising during the ramp test that's a conscious choice, right?

Or something else? eg. hitting wattage ceiling for the chosen gear???

During smart trainer ramp tests my own cadence is stable (mid 90s) until the final ~1 minute when I enter the dark tunnel and cadence begins to steadily slide towards 50s and failure.

Re: Base training
« Reply #1641 on: May 29, 2019, 05:06:22 pm »
In theory it's choice. In practise I'm looking out the garage door and trying to think positive thoughts (alternating with seeing how much time has passed since I last looked at the app). ;) So I'm not trying to choose a cadence, but I'm not trying to lift it either.
When I'm in a big gear I find the floor of the trainer resistance, so that explains why I start with a relatively low cadence, but I don't know why I end up so high.

Re: Base training
« Reply #1642 on: May 29, 2019, 07:11:41 pm »
In theory it's choice. In practise I'm looking out the garage door and trying to think positive thoughts (alternating with seeing how much time has passed since I last looked at the app). ;) So I'm not trying to choose a cadence, but I'm not trying to lift it either.
When I'm in a big gear I find the floor of the trainer resistance, so that explains why I start with a relatively low cadence, but I don't know why I end up so high.

Well done on the test.

Next one maybe focus on trying to maintain stable cadence throughout (until you cannot) to see how this affects the outcome?

Re: Base training
« Reply #1643 on: June 02, 2019, 09:34:08 am »
During smart trainer ramp tests my own cadence is stable (mid 90s) until the final ~1 minute when I enter the dark tunnel and cadence begins to steadily slide towards 50s and failure.

Interesting this, I was always under the impression that on a ramp test, your cadence should remain broadly the same throughout. The moment you find yourself drifting significantly lower then stop rather than continuing to grind it out. I guess that's because at lower cadences you're using muscular strength instead of aerobic power to turn the pedals which maybe could over-estimate your FTP?

Never seen anything about increasing cadence at the end though. I guess an increased cadence still uses heart and lungs, so that's ok. I'm usually focussed on hanging on for grim death by the end, so never thought about increasing cadence. Hmm...

Re: Base training
« Reply #1644 on: June 02, 2019, 12:01:37 pm »
I was always under the impression that on a ramp test, your cadence should remain broadly the same throughout. The moment you find yourself drifting significantly lower then stop rather than continuing to grind it out.

The advice from TR for their ramp test protocol is to go for as long as you can until you cannot maintain target power: "go until failure".

https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/workouts/385142

"Stay seated for the entire test, and don't worry about any specific cadence. Simply turn the pedals until you can't reach the goal power any longer. The test is complete as soon as you are unable to pedal or your watts begin dropping, and there is no benefit to continuing once your watts start to fall."


NB in Erg mode, where the trainer forces you to match target power, this means the test protocol is to go until your legs stop.

The number you get from this test is just an input for scaling training workouts, and while not perfect I've found it to be pretty good for that purpose, eg.:
- following my test in January subsequent "SSB II" workouts initially felt a bit too hard and to avoid too many failures I manually knocked the FTP number down a touch (before later raising it);
- following my test in May the "Climbing Road Race" workouts have felt spot on, no failures to-date, and perhaps I could raise it a touch.

I think if you do these workouts a lot and have been doing them for a long time you should get to know how they should feel, so could probably set your ftp number manually with good "accuracy", with any test protocol mainly acting as a periodic "sanity check" on the number you've set.


Re: Base training
« Reply #1645 on: June 02, 2019, 09:36:22 pm »
The advice from TR for their ramp test protocol is to go for as long as you can until you cannot maintain target power: "go until failure".

No idea why I was under that impression - thanks for clarifying. Will go to failure on my next ramp test (tend to do it on Zwift using the Alpe as motivation rather than Trainer Road) instead of when I cannot maintain cadence and see what happens.  :thumbsup:

simonp

  • Omnomnomnipotent.
Re: Base training
« Reply #1646 on: June 06, 2019, 04:48:04 pm »
I'm targeting a CTL of around 100 for the start of PBP.

This is going to require a lot of training.  It's 68 today.

Re: Base training
« Reply #1647 on: June 07, 2019, 11:18:35 am »
Turbo work this week has gone fine.   On top of commuting and a big block of Audax just finishing I'm feeling a bit fatigued now.   Weather for tomorrow looks a little breezy so I'll knock the planned ride on the TT bike on the head and just do a few steady hours.   I may be finally growing up and knowing when to dial things back.

The next 3 weeks are TT weeks so I go 50/100/50 on consecutive weekends all on fast DC courses.   It's then 3 weeks to the Mersey 24hr which I have yet to enter.   I probably need to take a call on that soon.

CrazyEnglishTriathlete

  • Miles eaten don't satisfy hunger
  • Chartered accountant in 5 different decades
    • CET Ride Reports and Blogs
Re: Base training
« Reply #1648 on: June 17, 2019, 09:38:42 am »
   It's then 3 weeks to the Mersey 24hr which I have yet to enter.   I probably need to take a call on that soon.

Depends on what you have planned after the 24Hr.  I planned a fast PBP 6 weeks after a 24Hr in 2011, and I struggled 300km into PBP and had to ease back.
Eddington Numbers 125 (imperial), 170 (metric) 520 (furlongs)  112 (nautical miles)

Re: Base training
« Reply #1649 on: June 17, 2019, 02:27:10 pm »
   It's then 3 weeks to the Mersey 24hr which I have yet to enter.   I probably need to take a call on that soon.

Depends on what you have planned after the 24Hr.  I planned a fast PBP 6 weeks after a 24Hr in 2011, and I struggled 300km into PBP and had to ease back.

If all goes to plan I may end up doing :-

National 24hr
National 12hr
PBP

There are 3 weeks between the 24 and the 12 and then 1 week to PBP.   As you say, experience shows that getting good recovery after the 24 is hard.   I suspect I'll need to take the 12 easier but it is on a fast course.   I'm going in the 90hr group again on PBP with an aim of getting round in circa 72hrs like last time.