All I want is a horizontal top tube...

[mike]

I'm a big fan of the horizontal TT too, I got a custom Ti frame for my best bike:

(the stem's a bit lower now, still an amazing bike)

I've got a crosscheck too, for the same reason.  Lovely bike to ride and if it stopped better it'd be perfect for an everyday bike - a straggler would be perfect...

[zigzag]

nice bike, but the top tube looks a bit sloping to me

[Highlander]

nice bike, but the top tube looks a bit sloping to me

Ah but isn't the front tyre fatter than the rear?

What do you think - spirit levels at twenty paces...?

[morbihan]

Van Nicholas? Some of theirs certainly used to be horizontal.

The Van Nic Yukon has a virtually horizontal cross-bar (let's use the real terminology here!) - which is partly why I chose that over other Ti frames to succeed my 1975 Galaxy  - BUT I'm not sure about discs (obv the front forks are not a problem, whether anything disc-ish would work on the back I know not)

Rob

Funny, I was out for a ride with Mrs Morbihan yesterday (we both have a VN Yukon) and I was prompted to look at the frame geometry after seeing the top of this post, but I see a few of you have beat me to it. Our frames looked "almost" horizontal to the naked eye.
FYI my Van Nic currently has a set of 33 cycle cross tires squeezed onto to the rims. (the fork flares out at the top) Makes for a plush ride.

[Highlander]

I'm ok with a slight deflection but there comes a point where the angle of the tt is not in dispute.  The whole genesis range for example, not really a full on compact design but far enough from the horizontal to rule them out, for me.

[mike]

nice bike, but the top tube looks a bit sloping to me

ooohhhhh.... I'll go and check!!

Update:  Dammit, you're right!  there's about a 1cm difference between front and back.  Is 8 years too late to whinge to the maker?? 

(the crosscheck seems to be horizontal though.. phew! )

[zigzag]

no need to whinge, sloping top tube looks way better! imagine making the top tube horizontal and lowering it where it joins head tube - the stack of spacers would resemble a thorn.. alterternatively if you raise the back of the top tube to horizontal, the seat clamp would be where the white letters start, giving the impression that you chose a bike a size too big and got stuck with what you've got..

[Highlander]

nice bike, but the top tube looks a bit sloping to me

ooohhhhh.... I'll go and check!!

Update:  Dammit, you're right!  there's about a 1cm difference between front and back.  Is 8 years too late to whinge to the maker?? 

(the crosscheck seems to be horizontal though.. phew! )

I've been wondering for a while why there are a lot of bikes today with this ever so slightly sloping TT arrangement. 

There was a review of the Surly Straggler a while back that remarked on the "downward sloping" TT to which Surly retorted the TT on the Straggler is actually perfectly level.  Maybe a perfectly straight TT in real life looks sloping so these days they angle it back so most of the time it looks level except of course in photos where there is a reference point.

[Jurek]

I remeber 'having a go' on that bike when Mike first acquired it.
Given that there's at least 150mm (and the rest) difference between us in height, it was never going to be a long ride 

[andrew_s]

For me, function trumps form.

That's why all my bikes are horizontal top tube.
I like to be able to use a proper size bottle on the seat tube cage, and a proper size frame fit pump that doesn't take several hundred strokes to get a tyre hard enough.

[Kim]

I like to be able to use a proper size bottle on the seat tube cage, and a proper size frame fit pump that doesn't take several hundred strokes to get a tyre hard enough.

Is "proper size bottle" larger than a standard 750ml bidon?  I've never had a problem with those on my sloping top tube frames, and they're not exactly large.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

HK can't use big bidons (>500ml) on the seat tube of some of her bikes, as they hit the top tube when being pulled out or replaced. Don't talk about weird side entry cages. Virtually all of them are shit.

[phantasmagoriana]

I like to be able to use a proper size bottle on the seat tube cage, and a proper size frame fit pump that doesn't take several hundred strokes to get a tyre hard enough.

Is "proper size bottle" larger than a standard 750ml bidon?  I've never had a problem with those on my sloping top tube frames, and they're not exactly large.

One of my bikes won't take a 750ml bottle - it's a 54cm frame so nothing extreme. I believe some smaller sloping frames simply omit the seat tube bottle cage altogether, which is a definite no-no for me.

[Kim]

HK can't use big bidons (>500ml) on the seat tube for some of her bikes, as they hit the top tube when being pulled out or replaced. Don't talk about weird side entry cages. Virtually all of them are shit.

I put a side entry cage on barakta's trike.  It does the job and makes it marginally easier for her to get the bottle back in, but I'm not sure how secure the bottle would be if it were mounted vertically.  I certainly wouldn't trust it on an off-road bike.

One of my bikes won't take a 750ml bottle - it's a 54cm frame so nothing extreme. I believe some smaller sloping frames simply omit the seat tube bottle cage altogether, which is a definite no-no for me.

Agreed.  A 500ml bottle/toolkit/etc is still well worth having.

[mattc]

I'm very happy with my "side-entry" cage, but it works best when you use it an angle, let's say 45' from the vertical. This is very easy for my limbs, on my particular frame (+ top-tube frame-pump); may not work so well for smaller frames and/or different users.

(I would still prefer the option of a "regular" cage!).

[jsabine]

HK can't use big bidons (>500ml) on the seat tube for some of her bikes, as they hit the top tube when being pulled out or replaced. Don't talk about weird side entry cages. Virtually all of them are shit.

I put a side entry cage on barakta's trike.  It does the job and makes it marginally easier for her to get the bottle back in, but I'm not sure how secure the bottle would be if it were mounted vertically.  I certainly wouldn't trust it on an off-road bike.

Not very, even when it's not very vertical. I've got a side entry cage - an Elite one, so you'd hope a decent enough brand - high up the down tube of my audax bike to carry a tool bottle (positioning I think I nicked from LWaB, though his cage uses extra braze-ons not band-on mounts, and isn't side-entry).

I've resorted to a loop of bungee cord across the cage opening to keep the bottle in there. That works, and I'm not prissy about the aesthetics, but it's scarcely a well-engineered solution.

[Samuel D]

I think Jobst Brandt (whose opinions fascinate me) claimed sloping top tubes were favoured by custom builders because they couldn’t reliably do the trig to get a top tube horizontal. Which was a bit uncharitable of him. Brandt also rode long distances without a water bottle, his frame not even having braze-ons for a cage, never mind two or three cages.

Another advantage of a horizontal top tube, at least in some frame sizes, is that it’s easier to carry such a frame on your shoulder. Maybe more important for flat dwellers like me.

[giropaul]

A "proper" bidon is 500ml . I have seen examples where using 750ml bottles has ripped out the frame bosses, especially on light frames.

Back to frames, my observation is that most bikes pictured in this thread have the bars higher than the average. To get a good frame fit the two key parameters are top tube length ( virtual or real) and bar height.
I would suggest that for the "fit" many contributors here want, they in reality use a frame which slopes up at the front, or if a horizontal tt then having less than typical seat tube showing i.e. a bigger frame than their leg length would usually indicate.

[Karla]

I agree: it seems many people want a sit up and beg position, drop bars and a horizontal top tube, without using Thorn-like numbers of spacers.  Geometrically, that's quite challenging    The solution would either be to size up and use a short stem and short-reach bars, or else to find a very short frame.  Alternatively, find a very short bike.  CX bikes are usually a bit shorter than road bikes, though they do also generally have higher bottom brackets than road bikes. 

For me, function trumps form.

That's why all my bikes are horizontal top tube.
I like to be able to use a proper size bottle on the seat tube cage, and a proper size frame fit pump that doesn't take several hundred strokes to get a tyre hard enough.

Take a couple of gas cannisters for fixing punctures, plus a tiny pump as insurance in case you get 3+ punctures on one ride?

[andrew_s]

Take a couple of gas cannisters for fixing punctures, plus a tiny pump as insurance in case you get 3+ punctures on one ride?

No thanks, I'll stick with a proper pump.
My puncture mending routine starts (after tube removal) with finding the hole in the tube, and only then progresses to inspecting the bit of tyre where the puncture was. Using gas to find the hole is a waste, not to say cost, and a tiddly pump will be just as bad for putting air in the punctured tube to find the hole as it is at pumping the new tube afterwards. Only inspecting the couple of inches of tyre by the hole, rather than the whole thing, goes a fair way to repaying the extra time spent pumping compared to gas.

[Kim]

A Road Morph is a reasonable alternative to a proper frame pump.  It'll certainly do an admirable job of the pumping bit, and can be mounted alongside a bottle cage on its mounting alongside a bottle cage widget.

But, like a sloping top tube, it lacks a certain elegance.

[Karla]

You can use a tiny piddly pump to inflate a tube enough to find a hole, it's perfectly capable of doing that.  You can even use a bit of your gas if you want: the remainder will still be enough to get your tyre just as high as you'd get it with any non-track pump. 

Alternatively, do as Kim says, or else mount your frame pump on the chainstay.  Your options are plentiful!

[Highlander]

I never really considered the frame fit pump and the bottle cage position but it's another plus for the horizontal TT mind you when I started cycling we had the bottle cage mounted on the handlebars (and if you were really flash you had two).

[fuaran]

But a sloping top tube gives you more space on the seatpost, which is useful for attaching a saddlebag, or lights, or bottles, or a pump etc.

[Kim]

Seatpost mounted *pump*?  Other than a Cyclaire?