Author Topic: [LEL17] LEL bike evolution.  (Read 18120 times)

wilkyboy

  • "nick" by any other name
    • 16-inch wheels
Re: LEL bike evolution.
« Reply #25 on: 19 February, 2017, 10:15:28 pm »
However, I was happy with the bike  described in the OP apart from the brakes, as  cantis and V brakes are difficult to adjust in the middle of a long, wet, event, such as PBP 2007. Discs seem to solve that, although I have no experience of them.

One of the reasons I changed to cable discs was just that. I was happy to be able to adjust my TRP Spyres with a 1/4 turn of an allen key half way through a wet, laney 1000 last year. I can't imagine adjusting my old cantis whilst being so tired, cold and wet.

Surely you just squeeze the levers a bit further, or am I missing something?
Lockdown lethargy. RRTY: wot's that? Can't remember if I'm on #8 or #9 ...

Re: LEL bike evolution.
« Reply #26 on: 19 February, 2017, 10:34:31 pm »
However, I was happy with the bike  described in the OP apart from the brakes, as  cantis and V brakes are difficult to adjust in the middle of a long, wet, event, such as PBP 2007. Discs seem to solve that, although I have no experience of them.

One of the reasons I changed to cable discs was just that. I was happy to be able to adjust my TRP Spyres with a 1/4 turn of an allen key half way through a wet, laney 1000 last year. I can't imagine adjusting my old cantis whilst being so tired, cold and wet.

Surely you just squeeze the levers a bit further, or am I missing something?

If the levers are hitting the handle bars, it's time to adjust the caliper.

Re: LEL bike evolution.
« Reply #27 on: 19 February, 2017, 10:40:53 pm »
If the levers are hitting the handle bars, it's time to adjust the caliper.

Might I suggest that if you start a ride (even a 1000) and your brakes blocks are that worn then it might have been wise to replace before the ride?  Also, cantis may not be the most efficient form of brakes but I understand why on some bikes they are appropriate.

After having a spoke problem on a ride and not being brilliant at the wheel truing stuff, I think a significant advantage discs have over rim brakes is that a 'wobbly wheel will have less of an effect regards braking.  At least you can still have brakes!

Re: LEL bike evolution.
« Reply #28 on: 19 February, 2017, 10:46:11 pm »
If the levers are hitting the handle bars, it's time to adjust the caliper.

Might I suggest that if you start a ride (even a 1000) and your brakes blocks are that worn then it might have been wise to replace before the ride?  Also, cantis may not be the most efficient form of brakes but I understand why on some bikes they are appropriate.

After having a spoke problem on a ride and not being brilliant at the wheel truing stuff, I think a significant advantage discs have over rim brakes is that a 'wobbly wheel will have less of an effect regards braking.  At least you can still have brakes!

They weren't that worn when I started ! It was quite a ride ...

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: LEL bike evolution.
« Reply #29 on: 19 February, 2017, 10:52:17 pm »
However, I was happy with the bike  described in the OP apart from the brakes, as  cantis and V brakes are difficult to adjust in the middle of a long, wet, event, such as PBP 2007. Discs seem to solve that, although I have no experience of them.

One of the reasons I changed to cable discs was just that. I was happy to be able to adjust my TRP Spyres with a 1/4 turn of an allen key half way through a wet, laney 1000 last year. I can't imagine adjusting my old cantis whilst being so tired, cold and wet.

Surely you just squeeze the levers a bit further, or am I missing something?

The Spyre is IIRC the canonical counterexample, but in general with cable discs there's a fixed pad and a moving pad.  Anything you do at the lever can only affect the moving pad, while the adjustment of the fixed pad makes a huge difference to the feel of the brake, as well as eventually affecting performance.

If you're going to do silly long rides than make you tired and stupid, being able to keep the brake operating as you expect it to has an obvious safety advantage.

With a BB7, winding in the fixed pad to compensate for wear is a simple twiddle of the thumb knob.

wilkyboy

  • "nick" by any other name
    • 16-inch wheels
Re: LEL bike evolution.
« Reply #30 on: 20 February, 2017, 12:08:29 am »
They weren't that worn when I started ! It was quite a ride ...

Cartridge units, with spare pads in the Carry-dee-chai?
Lockdown lethargy. RRTY: wot's that? Can't remember if I'm on #8 or #9 ...

Re: LEL bike evolution.
« Reply #31 on: 20 February, 2017, 12:26:18 am »
The problem with cantis and V brakes is that they follow a short arc, so the shoes need moving to maintain the best contact. The parallelogram linkage on the XT front brake solved that, but I needed a 'Travel Agent' to match it to the Ergo lever. I originally had Shimano RSX levers, but I preferred the left hand Campag levers, as the ratchet controls a triple better.

The idea of a properly thought-out system with hydraulic brakes, 11 speed cassette and compact chainset appeals, apart from the chain. I could swayed by belt drive and a Rohloff, in a purely theoretical sense, but the price seems to get a bit out of hand. https://www.shandcycles.com/bikes/stoater-rohloff/

Re: LEL bike evolution.
« Reply #32 on: 20 February, 2017, 08:27:07 am »
it is clear cut,  in one form or another recumbents hold all speed and endurance records. The weekend just gone,  someone rode 311 miles at a NP of 193 watts in twelvw hours at Sebring. Tests have shown that on an unfaired recumbent with dual disks you can hit 38kph with just ove 100 watts. DF's come no where near this.


More than likely Coker rides a df as they are better suited in a paceline and it is something she is used to.
They don't seem to hold *all* records, as you state. What is the current 24hr record? I believe it is still held by wilko at 542miles.

Amanda doesn't ride in a paceline all the time.

The solo RAAM record is held by an upright.

Nobody is entering TCR in a recumbent, or TransAm.

It just doesn't seem so clearcut. Sure, recumbents have better aerodynamics . That isn't the whole story.
<i>Marmite slave</i>

Phil W

Re: LEL bike evolution.
« Reply #33 on: 20 February, 2017, 09:40:16 am »
it is clear cut,  in one form or another recumbents hold all speed and endurance records. The weekend just gone,  someone rode 311 miles at a NP of 193 watts in twelvw hours at Sebring. Tests have shown that on an unfaired recumbent with dual disks you can hit 38kph with just ove 100 watts. DF's come no where near this.


More than likely Coker rides a df as they are better suited in a paceline and it is something she is used to.
They don't seem to hold *all* records, as you state. What is the current 24hr record? I believe it is still held by wilko at 542miles.

Amanda doesn't ride in a paceline all the time.

The solo RAAM record is held by an upright.

Nobody is entering TCR in a recumbent, or TransAm.

It just doesn't seem so clearcut. Sure, recumbents have better aerodynamics . That isn't the whole story.

24 hr solo male  recumbent record is 757.5 miles, set in 2010

24 hr solo female  recumbent record is 628.8 miles, set in 2015

Re: LEL bike evolution.
« Reply #34 on: 20 February, 2017, 09:43:14 am »
Quote
Christian von Ascheberg of Germany has recaptured his 24 Hour world record with an amazing run of 1,233km. That’s an astonishing average speed of 50.8 kph. And he set the record in a production velomobile you can actually go out and buy. The rocketship in question is the German made Milan SL.

That was in 2010. Unfortunately he died in April 2013, from a heart attack while in his velomobile. He had talked of RAAM.

Quote
BentBlog: Now, you are holding the 12h-, the 1000km- and the 24h-Rekord. Regardless of whether you approach the 1300km or not, are there any other sportive challanges, you would like to approach in the nearer future?

Christian: No, I want to spend some time with my family and live as long and as happy as possible as now. Hence, I question every change which is coming with success. Though RAAM is appealing to me.

http://www.totolidou.de/bent/en/2010/09/01/raam-is-appealing-to-me-an-interview-with-christian-von-ascheberg/

The 'real road' comparisons to be made include the LEJOG I mentioned upthread. Andy Wilkinson took the recumbent and upright records in the same year. I think heat would be a major factor in RAAM.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: LEL bike evolution.
« Reply #35 on: 20 February, 2017, 09:44:57 am »
Unfaired HPV 24hr record is about 517 miles.

The faired upright 24hr record is only just over 500 miles but Gerry Tatrai had finished RAAM less than a fortnight earlier and stopped for a sleep about 100 miles in.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

LMT

Re: LEL bike evolution.
« Reply #36 on: 20 February, 2017, 12:09:07 pm »
it is clear cut,  in one form or another recumbents hold all speed and endurance records. The weekend just gone,  someone rode 311 miles at a NP of 193 watts in twelvw hours at Sebring. Tests have shown that on an unfaired recumbent with dual disks you can hit 38kph with just ove 100 watts. DF's come no where near this.


More than likely Coker rides a df as they are better suited in a paceline and it is something she is used to.
They don't seem to hold *all* records, as you state. What is the current 24hr record? I believe it is still held by wilko at 542miles.

Amanda doesn't ride in a paceline all the time.

The solo RAAM record is held by an upright.

Nobody is entering TCR in a recumbent, or TransAm.

It just doesn't seem so clearcut. Sure, recumbents have better aerodynamics . That isn't the whole story.

Yes they do, ''one form or another recumbents....''

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: LEL bike evolution.
« Reply #37 on: 20 February, 2017, 12:23:28 pm »
Full fairings are a different beast, at least as far as this discussion is concerned. The discussion everybody else has been having is that unfaired recumbents and uprights are similar speeds.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: LEL bike evolution.
« Reply #38 on: 20 February, 2017, 01:36:29 pm »
They weren't that worn when I started ! It was quite a ride ...

Cartridge units, with spare pads in the Carry-dee-chai?
You need a thermos to carry-dee-chai.  :D
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

LMT

Re: LEL bike evolution.
« Reply #39 on: 20 February, 2017, 10:42:07 pm »
Full fairings are a different beast, at least as far as this discussion is concerned. The discussion everybody else has been having is that unfaired recumbents and uprights are similar speeds.

Even the latest offering from Cervelo, the P5X coming in at over £10k is way behind in terms of drag. Show me an upright bike that takes 138 watts to do 24mph? For sure you could match my speed on a DF, but you'll be working harder and as the k's tick over will become more and more uncomfortable.


LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: LEL bike evolution.
« Reply #40 on: 20 February, 2017, 10:57:14 pm »
Then why are unfaired recumbent records slower than uprights for longer distances? There is something else that you are not considering.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

LMT

Re: LEL bike evolution.
« Reply #41 on: 20 February, 2017, 11:31:50 pm »
Quote from: LittleWheelsandBig link01827.msg2137552#msg2137552 date=1487631434
Then why are unfaired recumbent records slower than uprights for longer distances? There is something else that you are not considering.

Quote me a record, and what am I not considering?

Re: LEL bike evolution.
« Reply #42 on: 20 February, 2017, 11:45:00 pm »
Quote from: LittleWheelsandBig link01827.msg2137552#msg2137552 date=1487631434
Then why are unfaired recumbent records slower than uprights for longer distances? There is something else that you are not considering.

Quote me a record, and what am I not considering?

From just a few posts up, it's asserted that solo RAAM is held by an upright rider, and that 24hr unfaired recumbent is c517 miles vs Andy Wilkinson's 542.

As for what has not yet been considered, I'm interested too, but assumed LWaB was prompting further discussion rather than holding back specialist knowledge in a bid to show how clever he is.

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: LEL bike evolution.
« Reply #43 on: 21 February, 2017, 12:00:01 am »
(click to show/hide)

Re: LEL bike evolution.
« Reply #44 on: 21 February, 2017, 12:24:58 am »
I've met some of these record breaking cyclists, and it's interesting to find out how little they know about each other. They're very focused, and they're generally only really aware of their chief rivals when they're in their prime, which is as it should be, they haven't got the spare time for internet debates.

We can only make judgements where their performances overlap, and that's quite rare.

What we can say is that the fastest time on LEL was done on a fairly ordinary diamond frame upright bike by Howard Waller. However, in 2001, Gethin Butler stopped at Thorne, where he'd started, as he was faced with a headwind, and was expected back at work. He went on to win the National 24 Hour championship a week later, and the LEJOG record and the 1,000mile record in September 2001. Audax serves as training miles for those sorts of rides. The question is what sort of bikes did they ride? The answer is, 'nothing very special'.


Re: LEL bike evolution.
« Reply #45 on: 21 February, 2017, 08:35:37 am »
(click to show/hide)
Yes.

I'm not disputing the aero efficiency quoted. As I already stated, there is more to bike riding than aero efficiency. Over a varied course, with varied conditions, a rider may find one type of bike more efficient overall than another.

I'm surprised that Amanda Coker hasn't ridden a recumbent more on her very flat (and at times windy) course. However it has been stated (I'm not an expert) that there is little aero difference between a well shaped upright ridden on TT bars and an unfaired recumbent.

I'd *love* to have the money to spend on a recumbent, mostly because I'm battling lower spine issues that are getting harder to stave off on an upright. I'm sure they have great advantages. They just aren't superior in every way, like LMT seems to imply.
<i>Marmite slave</i>

Alex B

  • Headwind specialist
    • Where is there an end of it?
Re: LEL bike evolution.
« Reply #46 on: 21 February, 2017, 09:32:50 am »
Nobody is entering TCR in a recumbent

The TCR has to be ridden on a "regular bike" (so, not a recumbent).

rob

Re: LEL bike evolution.
« Reply #47 on: 21 February, 2017, 09:56:36 am »
Full fairings are a different beast, at least as far as this discussion is concerned. The discussion everybody else has been having is that unfaired recumbents and uprights are similar speeds.

Even the latest offering from Cervelo, the P5X coming in at over £10k is way behind in terms of drag. Show me an upright bike that takes 138 watts to do 24mph? For sure you could match my speed on a DF, but you'll be working harder and as the k's tick over will become more and more uncomfortable.

And that Cervelo is fugly.   Saw one at the bike show this weekend  :sick:.

Re: LEL bike evolution.
« Reply #48 on: 21 February, 2017, 10:20:08 am »
'TCR' are important initials in bike evolution.

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest-news/icons-of-cycling-giant-tcr-206346


That's the kind of bike that most ride now. It generated the emphasis of stiffness and 'response' that tests talk about. LEL actually demands the opposite; elasticity. Adventure bikes are designed to put big tyres into contact with the road, often with deep section rims. Randonneur bikes have the big tyres with the spindly steel tubes that held sway before the TCR.

PBP bikes of the 1960s had the spindly frame tubes, tubular tyres, shallow sprint rims and 32 or 28  spokes front. 36 or 40 rear.

It is possible to tick all the right boxes by putting 700c wheels in a 1980s frame built for 27 inch wheels, and putting big tyres on. That approach sells little other than a specific type of Tektro long reach twin pivot caliper, and Vittoria Voyager Ultras, so you'll not see that advocated in any commercial magazines. I was taken by Peter Simon's Raleigh Record Ace on the Mille Pennines. Seen here from 40 seconds  to 1.40. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBIU38fbiyA

He was first back on that ride by a long margin. He did that by simply not stopping much, so there's no magic in the bike. But it was reliable and comfortable. The factor that's often neglected is how vibration gets to the soles of your feet. You're always going to have to exert pressure to move forwards, whatever the design. The faster you go, the higher that pressure.

Hard tyres, deep rims and stiff frames transmit road vibration. You can cushion the hands, and the saddle, but not the pedals. A strategy where you go slower, and rest less, puts less pressure on the feet. The challenge is then to make the rest of the bike comfortable. The aim is a Tortoise/Hare hybrid. You can throw quite a lot of money at that problem, but the Tortoise/Hare might equally be skulking in a shed near you.

zigzag

  • unfuckwithable
Re: LEL bike evolution.
« Reply #49 on: 21 February, 2017, 06:33:48 pm »
<...>
It is possible to tick all the right boxes by putting 700c wheels in a 1980s frame built for 27 inch wheels, and putting big tyres on.

my first commuter about ten years ago was like that, i've run 28c tyres on it and (obviously) mudguards. nothing wrong with this setup, once couple of small issues are sorted. the bigger inconvenience with vintage frames (assuming they fit well and ride nice and you don't mind the extra weight) is the lack of bottle cage mounts - typically one pair or none at all. another thing to consider - they have been rusting quietly from the inside left abandoned in the sheds for the past 40-50 years, so you never know when is it going to fall apart (there are some good examples of course, but fairly rare).

p.s. i rode a steel racer on lel 2009, as i was inexperienced and the internet told me it was a right kind of bike. it did the job.