Author Topic: Giro 2018  (Read 17173 times)

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #225 on: May 30, 2018, 10:24:32 pm »
That is why every major bike racing website has carried a headline article either straight up denouncing Froome, or at least doubting his legitimacy. Similar articles are also to be found in newspapers, such as the Guardian.

You're right.

Guardian really slated him of here:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/may/27/chris-froome-flash-of-magic-giro-italia

The Times on Monday gave a resume titled "Incredible Giro victory puts Froome among elite" and on Tuesday gave "Eight reasons to explain the ride of Froom's life" none of which involved anything untoward.

Why even David Walsh became a fan after his "scintillating ride" on stage 19.

Yet for some, they just can't bring themselves to acknowledge what an incredible ride it was and persist with the vitriol.

Oh well, some folks eh?

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #226 on: May 30, 2018, 10:25:15 pm »
Should I register a sockpuppet of my own to talk to you, Veloman?

No idea what you are talking about.

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #227 on: May 30, 2018, 10:29:02 pm »
Should I register a sockpuppet of my own to talk to you, Veloman?

No idea what you are talking about.

Of course you do Veloman.

Next time you try creating a sockpuppet maybe leave it a little longer than 4 minutes between logging out of your usual account and registering a new one. Makes it a bit less obvious. You'll have to change your trademark pompous and tedious writing style too  ;)

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #228 on: May 30, 2018, 10:34:35 pm »
Then I could address your ridiculous attempt at a straw man and your fatuous ellision of homophobic and racist bigotry with a mistrust of Team Sky and their ethics.

Bigot = obstinately or unreasonably attached to a belief, opinion, or faction, and intolerant towards other people's beliefs and practices.

Might describe a racist, someone homophobic, or whatever.  Might describe someone who obstinately puts the same old stuff across and no matter what other view is provided will denounce it or the person giving that view.  They will always firmly believe what they believe, no matter what.  Even if a cyclist performs a remarkable feat that even previous sceptics acknowledge as being something special, they will continue with the same vitriol and same old viewpoint.  No straw man in that, just a straightforward observation based on postings.

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #229 on: May 30, 2018, 10:38:09 pm »
Why did you create a sockpuppet purely to post in this thread, Veloman?

Really weird behaviour.

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #230 on: May 30, 2018, 10:59:00 pm »
As this thread is about the Giro 2018, perhaps we can acknowledge the great ride by the winner and his team:

https://www.teamsky.com/article/froome-wins-giro-d-italia

Commiserations of course to those not reaching the top spot on the podium, but a thrilling and most memorable race that will no doubt be remembered for some time to come.

I look forward to seeing Simon Yates in years to come and hope he develops the potential he has displayed. 

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #231 on: May 30, 2018, 11:08:29 pm »
Every bit as thrilling and memorable as the 2006 Tour de France.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #232 on: May 31, 2018, 12:43:31 am »
That is why every major bike racing website has carried a headline article either straight up denouncing Froome, or at least doubting his legitimacy. Similar articles are also to be found in newspapers, such as the Guardian.

You're right.

Guardian really slated him of here:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/may/27/chris-froome-flash-of-magic-giro-italia

I assume you're cherry-picking, otherwise I can't see why you avoided Chris Froome’s Giro victory will lead only to more contortions, Unanswered questions leave Chris Froome in the shadow of suspicion, or even - from a month ago - Team Sky accused of deceiving Giro d’Italia organisers over Froome’s status.

FWIW, I think it was a great ride, a magnificent achievement. I'm quite happy to accept that he's innocent until proven guilty (and frankly, I'm not really interested enough in bike racing to be too bothered either way). But Sky's lack of transparency about *anything* does them no favours and, if cheating is wrong, then doing something because it might not be explicitly prohibited if you interpret the rules in the right way is scarcely the conduct of anyone with any pretensions to ethics.

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #233 on: May 31, 2018, 06:54:21 am »
Then I could address your ridiculous attempt at a straw man and your fatuous ellision of homophobic and racist bigotry with a mistrust of Team Sky and their ethics.

Bigot = obstinately or unreasonably attached to a belief, opinion, or faction, and intolerant towards other people's beliefs and practices.

Might describe a racist, someone homophobic, or whatever.  Might describe someone who obstinately puts the same old stuff across and no matter what other view is provided will denounce it or the person giving that view.  They will always firmly believe what they believe, no matter what.  Even if a cyclist performs a remarkable feat that even previous sceptics acknowledge as being something special, they will continue with the same vitriol and same old viewpoint.  No straw man in that, just a straightforward observation based on postings.

Your straw man was constructing a fantasy argument about radiation and trying to ascribe it to me.

Again you are mentioning homophobia and racism as examples of bigotry when no examples are required. It's a poor analogy to boot but an obvious attempt to smear.

It's also very obvious, Veloman, that you are trying to use your sockpuppet account as a filibuster. You tried this tactic before on another Sky thread with your Veloman account and the structure and phraseology of your posts are identical.

Creating a sockpuppet is not 'excellence', Veloman. Neither is filibustering, and invoking racism and homophobia in a discussion on bike racing.

I've reported you, Veloman. The mods will, I suspect, have access to IP addresses for your 'A Cyclist' account which they can compare with those from your Veloman account.

I doubt you were clever enough to use a proxy 😉

In the meantime, until this is resolved, I suggest Veloman's sockpuppet is ignored by all.


Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #234 on: May 31, 2018, 07:55:07 am »

sock puppet
noun: sockpuppet


A false online identity, typically created by a person or group in order to promote their own opinions or views.

A sockpuppet is an online identity used for purposes of deception.

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #235 on: May 31, 2018, 08:26:28 am »
Bear in mind that the AAF is not in itself sufficient, the offence is to take more than a certain amount in a stated time.

AIUI, no and yes.  The rules state the AAF is sufficient in and of itself as evidence that the max dose was exceeded unless Froome proves by means of a pharmokinetic study that he can replicate the reading.

It appears that Froome has has chosen not to do down the pharmokinetic study route like Ulissi did (although we don't know for sure) but is instead challenging the fitness of the test. I thought this was interesting from a CAS lawyer.

I think he's onto a loser but it'll be a long time before it's totally settled at CAS. I predict he'll race the tour and the case will be settled in the UCI tribunal in the third week of the Vuelta with the CAS case being settled early next year, at that point if any punishment isn't backdated it's possibly career over, unless of course he's been drinking from the same fountain as Piti and Horner.

If he wins the repercussions could be very interesting, salbutamol will have to be removed from the specified substance list as there's no fit test for threshold, either it'll have to back to being a prohibited substance without a TUE or everyone gets a free pass to take as much as they want by whatever method.

Samuel D

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #236 on: May 31, 2018, 10:11:48 am »
I thought this was interesting from a CAS lawyer.

Indeed. Interesting too that he sees the UCI as the source of the delay.

More new content in this Velonews podcast. The first 45 minutes has, first, some chat about the race including interviews with Froome and Svein Tuft, and then a debate among Andrew Hood and Fred Dreier about the AAF situation. Hood’s reporting is maybe the best on cycling at the moment, but Dreier usually gets on my nerves. However, from about the 30 minute mark they do a good job suggesting why Froome is hated with the fanatical, blind hatred seen in this thread and on social media. Dreier’s rant puts his finger on it. Worth a listen.

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #237 on: May 31, 2018, 10:23:03 am »
I thought this was interesting from a CAS lawyer.

Indeed. Interesting too that he sees the UCI as the source of the delay.

More new content in this Velonews podcast. The first 45 minutes has, first, some chat about the race including interviews with Froome and Svein Tuft, and then a debate among Andrew Hood and Fred Dreier about the AAF situation. Hood’s reporting is the maybe the best on cycling at the moment, but Dreier usually gets on my nerves. However, from about the 30 minute mark they do a good job suggesting why Froome is hated with the fanatical, blind hatred seen in this thread and on social media. Dreier’s rant puts his finger on it. Worth a listen.

Fanatical, blind hatred seen in this thread?  Exaggeration much  ::-)

The only fanaticism I can see are two posters, one of which is a sockpuppet, invoking homophobia, racism, claiming bullying, and launching personal attacks in order to try and shut down debate about racing cyclists. You should take a step back and listen to your rabid ranting, Samuel. It's pretty weird.

 I don't think anybody will thank you for the tone of personal nastiness you've introduced into this and other threads, Samuel.

I don't need to listen to a podcast to know why I dislike Froome's participation in grand tours, nor do I need an explanation of why I think Team Sky have sent cycling firmly back. The DCMS committee, the jiffybag, the denied-then-admitted TUEs, the testosterone, the Tramadol, the ZTP hypocrisy, and all the lies in between are still there.

 They aren't going away, Samuel.However, I will listen to the podcast. All views are welcomed by me, even if I disagree with some of them.


Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #238 on: May 31, 2018, 10:55:55 am »
Just listened. Apart from a few points with which I agree, such as motor-doping and whether from Froome's perspective he should be racing GTs, apart from this it is overwhelmingly fatuous.

One of them asks why Froome would dope knowing that he is under scrutiny. Ummm....ask Armstrong if he ever failed a dope test. Seriously...how idiotic. If Froome is doping, he has done so successfully and it has made him a multi-millionaire. The question is why would he not continue if he has evaded detection successfully.

Let's be clear, I'm not talking about Salbutamol. This is a red herring and from what I've read about the substance it does not account for Froome's unbelievable transformation.  Which brings me to my final point. The reporter in this podcast attempts to claim that people dislike Froome because he rides with his elbows pointing out. The reporter should speak for himself only. Most people who doubt Froome do so based on a rational examination of whether his sudden leap in performance in 2011 has an explanation that doesn't involve doping.

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #239 on: May 31, 2018, 11:03:56 am »
Just listened. Apart from a few points with which I agree, such as motor-doping and whether from Froome's perspective he should be racing GTs, apart from this it is overwhelmingly fatuous.

One of them asks why Froome would dope knowing that he is under scrutiny. Ummm....ask Armstrong if he ever failed a dope test. Seriously...how idiotic. If Froome is doping, he has done so successfully and it has made him a multi-millionaire. The question is why would he not continue if he has evaded detection successfully.

Let's be clear, I'm not talking about Salbutamol. This is a red herring and from what I've read about the substance it does not account for Froome's unbelievable transformation. Which brings me to my final point. The reporter in this podcast attempts to claim that people dislike Froome because he rides with his elbows pointing out. The reporter should speak for himself only. Most people who doubt Froome do so based on a rational examination of whether his sudden leap in performance in 2011 has an explanation that doesn't involve doping.

The fact remains, that apart from 'no smoke without fire' suspicions, you don't know what's behind F's performance, one way or another...   ;)
Destroying rainforest for economic gain is like burning a Renaissance painting to cook a meal.  EOW.

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #240 on: May 31, 2018, 11:14:14 am »
No, I don't, and I haven't claimed that I do. What I do know is that his sudden change from soon-to-be sub World Tour level rider to the greatest cyclist of his generation  is pushing the bounds of credibility beyond stretching point, such that I, and so it would seem many/most seasoned observers, are no longer willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

That was 2011.

In the intervening years we have learnt from leaks, hacks and a government committee investigation, that Froome's team is unethical and spins webs of lies that later are exposed, and explanations that push the bounds of credibility.

I was about to say "No, he hasn't failed a dope test", but of course he has. I have to say that even if his Salbutamol case goes against him and he is banned, this will still not account for his performances.

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #241 on: May 31, 2018, 11:21:55 am »
What would be the debate if Yates had won? He served a suspension after all.

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #242 on: May 31, 2018, 11:37:19 am »
Given that every successful bike racer will at some point have been not as good as the best, is the deduction from this that anyone who becomes successful at top level pro-racing is on the sauce ?
Rust never sleeps

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #243 on: May 31, 2018, 11:52:57 am »
Given that every successful bike racer will at some point have been not as good as the best, is the deduction from this that anyone who becomes successful at top level pro-racing is on the sauce ?
No, but there is often a progression that looks legit. You get some outliers (eg Rusty Woods) who come to the sport late from another discipline,  but usually you see a rider do well at age group cycling, then U23, then in 1 day or short stage races (or portions within them like the TT), and then finally, after riding some grand tours for others and finishing way down, make progress towards top 20 and up. Both Yates follow this progression.
Flatus' argument (and I have some sympathy for this view) is that Froome came to road cycling late, and was a journeyman for a few years, winning nothing of note (and not showing much in TTs either). And then, in his mid-late 20s, just before he's let go by Sky, he is the best grand tour rider of a generation. There's no baby steps, no slow creep up the rankings, he just goes from the 150th best GC rider in the world to the top 1 and then stays there for 6 years. Step changes like that look suspicious.

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #244 on: May 31, 2018, 11:55:42 am »
Given that every successful bike racer will at some point have been not as good as the best, is the deduction from this that anyone who becomes successful at top level pro-racing is on the sauce ?
No, but there is often a progression that looks legit. You get some outliers (eg Rusty Woods) who come to the sport late from another discipline,  but usually you see a rider do well at age group cycling, then U23, then in 1 day or short stage races (or portions within them like the TT), and then finally, after riding some grand tours for others and finishing way down, make progress towards top 20 and up. Both Yates follow this progression.
Flatus' argument (and I have some sympathy for this view) is that Froome came to road cycling late, and was a journeyman for a few years, winning nothing of note (and not showing much in TTs either). And then, in his mid-late 20s, just before he's let go by Sky, he is the best grand tour rider of a generation. There's no baby steps, no slow creep up the rankings, he just goes from the 150th best GC rider in the world to the top 1 and then stays there for 6 years. Step changes like that look suspicious.

But, but... hard work... dedication... sacrifice...

(Like the 149 who were ahead of him were lazy fuckers...)

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #245 on: May 31, 2018, 12:05:43 pm »
The standard refutation is that he was ill and as soon as he was better, his performances picked up. That's fair enough, but the magnitude is astonishing.

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #246 on: May 31, 2018, 12:29:48 pm »
Given that every successful bike racer will at some point have been not as good as the best, is the deduction from this that anyone who becomes successful at top level pro-racing is on the sauce ?

The bolded doesn't hold for the company Froome is keeping though. Merckx - won two stages in his first GT, Hinault - won the GC in his first GT. Froome showed no evidence of having that kind of talent, right up until he was nearly out of contract and was called on as a last minute replacement for Lars Petter Nordhaug.

Given the number that have proved to be on the sauce it's a difficult to deduction to avoid, you have to believe that a clean rider is so talented he can beat a doped rider who can train harder and recover faster, or you believe Hesjedal and doping makes you slower.

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #247 on: May 31, 2018, 12:32:54 pm »
The standard refutation is that he was ill and as soon as he was better, his performances picked up. That's fair enough, but the magnitude is astonishing.

Except that he cannot always have been ill. Where were the magic performances before the bilharzia?

Oh I forgot. It was Sky's marginal gains that brought the best out of him...but only in the final months of his contract when they were looking to dump him to lower league teams for very little money.

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #248 on: May 31, 2018, 12:34:41 pm »
The standard refutation is that he was ill and as soon as he was better, his performances picked up. That's fair enough, but the magnitude is astonishing.

I thought it was Michelle's nutrition that made the difference, all them support staff at Sky were useless.

Re: Giro 2018
« Reply #249 on: May 31, 2018, 12:36:10 pm »
 ;D ;D ;D