GPX OR NOT GPX?

[frankly frankie]

I think I may have bought some haribo at the control village for the receipt and had a proper coffee stop at one of the other two - I honestly couldn't say which was which. Would you have wanted a countdown to one but not the other? No judgement, just wondering how other people treat these things)

Personally (as someone at the full-value end), ideally I do want to cruise past the info control, if the info can be observed from the saddle. I do want the controls to be obvious but I don't want to have to fiddle with my device at each. I don't know what device's screen or zoom level you're talking about (I rely on audio prompts rather than screen).
(Obviously if it turns out that the thing that's most useful to most people with their devices (and/or is easier for the organiser) is separate tracks for each stage then I'll accept that I have to stitch them together myself just as you split up the tracks yourself)

Everyone does it differently, and there is a multitude of different devices in use.  That is why, years ago, we suggested a lowest-common-denominator 'standard' for a downloadable GPX file which would work for almost every user, but also bound to be sub-optimal for almost every user.  Part of that file definition is 'a single Track for the whole distance' because - for some popular models of Edge GPS** at least - a file containing multiple Tracks is simply a broken file - the GPS will load one of the Tracks and delete the rest (and what is worse, the user may only discover this mid-ride).  So it has to be a single Track for the whole distance.  However this is of course deeply sub-optimal for anyone who prefers to work with one-Track-per-leg or indeed for any total distance over 200k. 
For similar reasons, part of the definition was 'no more than 500 Trackpoints' and again this is obviously deeply sub-optimal for nearly all users, and especially at longer distances - untenable in fact above 300k.  (And in fact, the number of devices still in the wild that are limited to 500 points per Track is probably very small indeed by now - it is probably reasonable to drop that part of the definition.)

Some organisers get round all this by providing a suite of optional formats - either all contained in a zip file, or all available via their website, or simply by offloading the whole problem to RWGPS.

Another option might be to arrive at a 'full fat' file definition - a GPX containing all the bells, all the whistles, all the T-by-T directions that anyone could conceivably want, and assume the end user will use the bits they want and reject the bits they don't.  It's fairly easy to obtain a file that approaches this ideal (complete with ridiculous high point count) via RWGPS.  Unlike the minimal file described above, which works for almost everyone but is sub-optimal for 95% of us - this full fat file would be broken for 95% of us until fettled to suit.

** if it were not for these pesky but popular Edges, the minimal file definition would have been for a file split into two Tracks, ie one out and one back.  This would have doubled the points density for everybody.

[wilkyboy]

(On the last event I rode, wilkyboy of this thread marked the controls but also a handful of recommended cafes between controls - I remember a sequence of three marked villages, each more or less 20km after the last, that were pretty much indistinguishable for my purposes but one was a control and two were "just" cafes. I think I may have bought some haribo at the control village for the receipt and had a proper coffee stop at one of the other two - I honestly couldn't say which was which. Would you have wanted a countdown to one but not the other? No judgement, just wondering how other people treat these things)

Interesting.  I'd appreciate it if you'd PM me which ride that was, so I can take a look at the file — I do so many, I cannot recall which it is.  But I have been known to add general info dots to routes, especially when the organiser has been at pains to highlight it themselves in the blurb and event preamble.  Hmm, it might've even been one of my own events ...

Anyway, as I'm getting better at using my GPS and I'm presuming others to be doing so also, I'm tending to strip back on the unnecessary gumpf and sticking to just the controls themselves.  Occasional events require a little more "detail", but mostly around info controls, because riders tend to chat and ride straight past, so I add a 500m and 1km beep to those.

But, generally, I'm erring towards less in the file ... which annoys Kazoo users, who want all that superfluous TBT stuff in there*; which is of course totally unnecessary when using a proper GPS device.  Or a routesheet 


* I'm only pulling legs for fun here — from this discussion, I've started giving a discrete link on my event pages to the whole route on RWGPS, so Kazoo users can pin it, or indeed trace it.

[FifeingEejit]

Another option might be to arrive at a 'full fat' file definition - a GPX containing all the bells, all the whistles, all the T-by-T directions that anyone could conceivably want, and assume the end user will use the bits they want and reject the bits they don't.  It's fairly easy to obtain a file that approaches this ideal (complete with ridiculous high point count) via RWGPS.  Unlike the minimal file described above, which works for almost everyone but is sub-optimal for 95% of us - this full fat file would be broken for 95% of us until fettled to suit.

I'm not sure why the full fat file would be broken for 95% of us.

It'll be broken for anyone using a 500 point limit device, but how many are still using them?
A modern eTrex should be fine with it?
A Garmin Edge device should be fine with it?
A Kazoo once loaded back onto RWGPS will be fine with it as it gets the file through RWGPS' API in the format Wahoo ask RWGPS for.

The bits that don't work with each device are just not there, but the important bit is... the breadcrumbs.

Although whoever decided to call them breadcrumbs needs to reread Hansel and Grettel.

[grams]

My understanding is RWGPS doesn’t magically add turn-by-turn if you upload a breadcrumb file to it. You have to plot the route within their editor to get them.

(Not a kazoo user though)

Do Edge/eTrex devices allow a countdown of km to a waypoint/cue?

[wilkyboy]

My understanding is RWGPS doesn’t magically add turn-by-turn if you upload a breadcrumb file to it. You have to plot the route within their editor to get them.

(Not a kazoo user though)

I don't know the answer to this either.  It is possible to do it via GMaps APIs, but only when using GMaps APIs to also do the auto-routing, i.e. NOT when uploading a breadcrumb file.  Strava did do some Labs work to try to get this conversion to work, but it wasn't wholly successful, as it's quite a hard problem.  Also not a Kazoo user.

Do Edge/eTrex devices allow a countdown of km to a waypoint/cue?

Yes.  On Edge, when following a Course that contains CoursePoints, there's an additional screen next to the map that lists all the CoursePoints yet to be visited, with the distance to each one counting down.  There are also individual fields that relate to just the next CoursePoint, such as distance and estimated time of arrival.  And, as described above, something similar exists on eTrex.

[Jem]

This thread just keeps on giving.

For me, it just keeps on taking and taking. This thread is a prime example of why I stay off forums. People get hurt. Even people who are not taking part in the argument. I am sitting hear in tears with a dilemma    none of have even considered. I agree with FBOAB, a real life friend with whom I have thrashed myself around audaxes in heat and snow for many years, and on tandem trike time trials. Then there is Carlosfandango, the man I love, but with whom in this instance, because I am unashamedly "old school" do not agree. So, while you all tear each other to bits hiding behind online anonymity, spare a thought for those of us who have been around long enough to put names to faces and find ourselves in no man's land in a battle we never asked for but which has really hurt. 

I just want to ride my bike.

Jane

[Exit Stage Left]

I'd be wary of losing the IKEA effect in Audax.

The IKEA effect is a cognitive bias in which consumers place a disproportionately high value on products they partially created. The name derives from the name of Swedish manufacturer and furniture retailer IKEA, which sells many furniture products that require assembly.

The IKEA effect has been described as follows: "The price is low for IKEA products largely because they take labor out of the equation. With a Phillips screwdriver, an Allen wrench and rubber mallet, IKEA customers can very literally build an entire home's worth of furniture on a very tight budget. But what happens when they do?" They "fall in love with their IKEA creations. Even when there are parts missing and the items are incorrectly built, customers in the IKEA study still loved the fruits of their labors."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IKEA_effect

Lighting used to consume a lot of 'self-build' effort. Frankly Frankie would write articles about using the latest 'almost white' LEDs in home-made lash-ups. Likewise there were endless debates about bike build, but bikes that do everything you want are available off the shelf, and debate centres around the number of chainrings.

Ultimately smartphones will have better battery life, and be more robust. Downloading will be simple, and blockchain will be involved as a gatekeeper to a fully-integrated Audax system.

But we'll lose the IKEA effect, and we'll be forced to look at Audax as a consumer product, with 'Trip Advisor' expectations. All the DIY we used to do contributed to the 'sunk cost' and was part of the process that drew us in.

We do get the occasional glimpse of that future from someone who has done PBP or LEL, and is taken in by the professional gloss of the front end. They tell us that the real thing was a bit wonky, and little attempt was made to conceal the allen screw heads.

It's worth looking up the seminal work on cognitive dissonance, 'When Prophecy Fails'.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/When_Prophecy_Fails

[Carlosfandango]

This thread just keeps on giving.

For me, it just keeps on taking and taking. This thread is a prime example of why I stay off forums. People get hurt. Even people who are not taking part in the argument. I am sitting hear in tears with a dilemma    none of have even considered. I agree with FBOAB, a real life friend with whom I have thrashed myself around audaxes in heat and snow for many years, and on tandem trike time trials. Then there is Carlosfandango, the man I love, but with whom in this instance, because I am unashamedly "old school" do not agree. So, while you all tear each other to bits hiding behind online anonymity, spare a thought for those of us who have been around long enough to put names to faces and find ourselves in no man's land in a battle we never asked for but which has really hurt. 

I just want to ride my bike.

Jane

 

[jiberjaber]

My understanding is RWGPS doesn’t magically add turn-by-turn if you upload a breadcrumb file to it. You have to plot the route within their editor to get them.

(Not a kazoo user though)

I don't know the answer to this either.  It is possible to do it via GMaps APIs, but only when using GMaps APIs to also do the auto-routing, i.e. NOT when uploading a breadcrumb file.  Strava did do some Labs work to try to get this conversion to work, but it wasn't wholly successful, as it's quite a hard problem.  Also not a Kazoo user.

This is correct - load a 'breadcrumb' and all you get us that.  If you require cue sheet, you need to drag and recreate the route. 

I'm not a kazzo user (but part of the famous Kazoo two band, but thats a different story!) however I dont use Garmin TBT.  I rely on the cue sheet within the route that I load on to my Garmin 1030.

[Ian H]

My understanding is RWGPS doesn’t magically add turn-by-turn if you upload a breadcrumb file to it. You have to plot the route within their editor to get them.

At least one rider on one of my events last year completely bolloxed a carefully thought-out route via RWGPS.  He seemed happy with his main road bash though, even felt the need to point out he'd ridden further than the pukka route.

[FifeingEejit]

My understanding is RWGPS doesn’t magically add turn-by-turn if you upload a breadcrumb file to it. You have to plot the route within their editor to get them.

(Not a kazoo user though)

Do Edge/eTrex devices allow a countdown of km to a waypoint/cue?

Rwgps won't add tbt directions unless the routes been put through the routing algorithms it utilises, what I mean is even if your device doesn't support the way points and tbt directions in a file, it will still show you the route as breadcrumbs.

While my lezyne super GPS was still alive, (note to self you've drowned 2 different lezyne devices due to their rubbish sealing usb plug don't buy a 3rd) I would load exactly the same source file into it and my edge 510, and once the 510 was dead I used the rwgps export of the same route I had synced to the wahoo, without problem... Except for the lezyne not supporting starting routes anywhere other than the start location that is...

The base item of use in any gps export is the breadcrumbs, and as long as you have them you should be able to navigate using them provided you can see them.

I don't know how blind stoker's navigate on tandems though, I presume there's no tactile display GPS systems so I guess good quality tbt instructions are useful there, I've yet to see any routing algorithm that know priorities on the road and so doesn't think a sharp right hand bend isn't a junction which could be interesting if it happens to also be a junction like the one at pitormie between dairsie and bulmullo

Sent from my BKL-L09 using Tapatalk

[Phil W]

A blind friend used Google maps walking to do a sponsored 30 mile walk to the London Eye. There was the odd appeal video on FB of him standing in a field asking if anyone could say where he was, and which way next, but otherwise it got him and his wife there. He uses Bike Brain (on his iPhone) when we are on the tandem but more for spoken stats about average speed and distance.  He uses the iPhone as he says the accessibility features are much better than Android.

[zigzag]

if it wasn't for the gps technology i would not be a cyclist now, let alone long distance. i've got my first one in 2008 after getting badly lost, coming home via busy main roads, cold, hungry, tired, in the dark with small blinky lights..
it was a steep learning curve to figure it out, still had little idea how to use it on lel in 2009 but thanks to all the other riders around navigation wasn't a problem. once i've learned it the technology has served me well* over the past decade; i have never navigated using a route sheet and would not ride an event without having a gpx file for it (either supplied by the organiser, or by a kind fellow audaxer who've done it for themselves and shared it). i moved from using gps with maps and waypoints to a simple one that only shows the line to follow, so far so good (but for touring, exploration, adventure etc maps are a must, at least available and usable on a phone).
if there was an online repository of audax gpx files, it would also be good to have a system preventing outdated files, highlighting and notifying about the changes etc., rwgps seems like a suitable ready-made solution, if it can be adapted and adopted for the needs of auk riders - it would be fab!

*never got lost, and only once went around the 200 audax the opposite way as i did not want to retrace 10km back to the missed y-fork - still had a great day out!

[quixoticgeek]

I'm not sure you did — mention was certainly made of white old men, but I don't recall you saying that white old men aren't allowed, just that they're not the only ones who ride audax, at least that's what I recall.

As to what mzjo quoted and then responded to, it seemed like the response would've been better placed against a different quote.  I think he just wanted to say something — anything — in order to waste his own time and then complain that he's wasting it and tell us all that he's going to stop wasting it.  Seems a bit silly, really 

Ok, glad I'm not going completely mad then.

This thread just keeps on giving.

For me, it just keeps on taking and taking. This thread is a prime example of why I stay off forums. People get hurt. Even people who are not taking part in the argument. I am sitting hear in tears with a dilemma    none of have even considered. I agree with FBOAB, a real life friend with whom I have thrashed myself around audaxes in heat and snow for many years, and on tandem trike time trials. Then there is Carlosfandango, the man I love, but with whom in this instance, because I am unashamedly "old school" do not agree. So, while you all tear each other to bits hiding behind online anonymity, spare a thought for those of us who have been around long enough to put names to faces and find ourselves in no man's land in a battle we never asked for but which has really hurt. 

I just want to ride my bike.

I'm not anonymous. I rode under my real name on RatN, several people from this forum have met me in person.

I just want to ride my bike. I want to be able to turn up at an Audax and not be the only girl. I want to be able to turn up without being asked if I am with a man. I want to be able to go into the ladies loo at the start of the ride and not find a man. I want to be able to go into a bike shop and not be hit on by the staff. I want to go into a bike shop and not be treated like a moron with them trying to sell me shit I don't need. I want to be able to walk into a bike shop and buy a bike.

I just want to ride my bike. If only it was that easy.

J

[Phil W]

As for the GPX, if an organiser is going to provide one then provide it in whichever format they can manage. My preference is for a GPX full fat single track and waypoints for Controls and Infos but I'll work with whatever is available.   The only thing I would say is don't go down sampling (to the point a track no longer follows the road) as an extra step.  It is easy enough for a rider to down sample a track themselves if necessary but up sampling is a somewhat harder (time consuming) task.

[quixoticgeek]

As for the GPX, if an organiser is going to provide one then provide it in whichever format they can manage. My preference is for a GPX full fat single track and waypoints for Controls and Infos but I'll work with whatever is available.   The only thing I would say is don't go down sampling (to the point a track no longer follows the road) as an extra step.  It is easy enough for a rider to down sample a track themselves if necessary but up sampling is a somewhat harder (time consuming) task.

Agreed.

J

[farfetched]

I'm not a kazzo user (but part of the famous Kazoo two band, but thats a different story!) however I dont use Garmin TBT.  I rely on the cue sheet within the route that I load on to my Garmin 1030.

Without turning this thread into a GPS tutorial, i was wondering exactly what you do to generate a cue sheet that would support navigation without TBT turned on, like you i also turn off the TBT but would appreciate having this. Is this part
of RWGPS for which you have to pay?

[willpom gwraudax]

If your device supports it in TCX or FIT format then yes with a paid RWGPS subscription you will be able to download them. Unless you manually edit the cues, whittle the chaff and add the missing you will only get the cues generated by the base map used.

[Kim]

Although whoever decided to call them breadcrumbs needs to reread Hansel and Grettel.

Consider the "Wrap when full" setting on older eTrexen with a lower trackpoint limit.  Seems pretty Hansel and Gretel to me.

[FifeingEejit]

Although whoever decided to call them breadcrumbs needs to reread Hansel and Grettel.

Consider the "Wrap when full" setting on older eTrexen with a lower trackpoint limit.  Seems pretty Hansel and Gretel to me.

Fair point

Sent from my BKL-L09 using Tapatalk

[Somnolent]

Without turning this thread into a GPS tutorial, i was wondering exactly what you do to generate a cue sheet that would support navigation without TBT turned on,

Why generate a cue sheet ?   Organisers provide one surely, only in AUK we tend to call it a routesheet     

Seriously though, talking of TBT, does anyone else still use (for their Etrex) what used to be called in these pages the "jwo method" ?    A breadcrumb trail on the road (or as near as the trackpoint limit will allow), and overlaid with a route that connects "routepoints" which are named in abbreviated audaxese.   I've yet to find anything more reliable for a) sticking to the planned route without succumbing to Garmin's own ideas about routing, b) counting down distances to turns, c) audible warning of turn a few seconds before each turn, d) no spurious 'off-route' warnings.

So
Depart - on Laburnam Way
LEFT, onto Sycamore Avenue
RIGHT at T, onto Maple Avenue
RIGHT at T, then imm LEFT.
3rd exit at RDB, A466 $ Monmouth

on the orgnaisers routesheet becomes on my screen:

00 Start
01 Left
02 R.T
03 R.L
04 E.3

(each displayed when they are the next instruction)


 

[Kim]

Seriously though, talking of TBT, does anyone else still use (for their Etrex) what used to be called in these pages the "jwo method" ?    A breadcrumb trail on the road (or as near as the trackpoint limit will allow), and overlaid with a route that connects "routepoints" which are named in abbreviated audaxese.

I sometimes do a variation on that, where I display the breadcrumb trail on the map, then navigate a carefully-crafted route in 'on road' mode.  The eTrex generates then lights up, beeps and displays big friendly turn instructions automatically.  The advantages are obvious (clear instructions that you don't need reading glasses for, sensible recalculation when you go off-route).  The disadvantage is that unless handled with tranquillity, Garmin's auto routing implementation can result in considerable stress, ulcers and even death.

In practice, it's mostly a case of knowing when to ignore the instructions.  Usually it's because you're doing something it doesn't understand like crossing a dual cabbageway in pedestrian mode, which is easily handled by chucking a waypoint in to remind you what to do - it'll sort itself out when you get moving again on the other side.  Occasionally it'll take the silly way round in a way you didn't spot at the planning stage.  This is easily caught by eyeballing the track on the map before committing yourself to any suspicious turnings or tempting descents.

Your approach seems more bullet-proof, particularly if you care about distance to next.

[JonB]

Seriously though, talking of TBT, does anyone else still use (for their Etrex) what used to be called in these pages the "jwo method" ?    A breadcrumb trail on the road (or as near as the trackpoint limit will allow), and overlaid with a route that connects "routepoints" which are named in abbreviated audaxese.   I've yet to find anything more reliable for a) sticking to the planned route without succumbing to Garmin's own ideas about routing, b) counting down distances to turns, c) audible warning of turn a few seconds before each turn, d) no spurious 'off-route' warnings.

No, I just passively follow the track on the map, no prompts, beeps etc .... However, I'd be interested in this. Would it be difficult to post your workflow for this method (maybe in the GPS board rather than take this one further off course'). No worries if it's a lot of work as I'm reasonably happy with my method but am intrigued.

[farfetched]

Why generate a cue sheet ?   Organisers provide one surely, only in AUK we tend to call it a routesheet     

I dont ride in the UK, over here in NL they have abandoned the routesheet and replaced it with a list of villages (at least on most of the rides i have done) and a GPX with control/info/warnings waypoints, which is fine as i only used the routesheet to cross-check the GPX beforehand. My question was triggered by the remark earlier of Jibber-jaber and the fact i dont want to use TBT navigation as it seems to slow down my GPS unit. Garmin doesnt seem to deliver anything that does this so it seems i need RWGPS...

[lmm]

I don't know how blind stoker's navigate on tandems though, I presume there's no tactile display GPS systems so I guess good quality tbt instructions are useful there, I've yet to see any routing algorithm that know priorities on the road and so doesn't think a sharp right hand bend isn't a junction which could be interesting if it happens to also be a junction like the one at pitormie between dairsie and bulmullo

I'm sighted but often rely on audio-only navigation; it took a bit of time to learn to "think like the GPS" (and thus realise that e.g. "turn slightly left" might in fact mean "take the turning off to the right as the main road curves left"), but one gets used to it.

To echo a previous post, I'm not sure a "full fat" file would be useless - certainly I've never seen a file I couldn't use. So far the only "unusable"-level issues that have come up are:

• Files with more than 500 points on some old devices (hopefully not an issue any more?)
• Files with more than 10000 points on some devices (avoidable without noticeable impact on riders whose devices could handle more?)
• Multiple tracks in a single GPX file (avoidable though at a cost to those who would prefer separate tracks for different legs)

Any other bells and whistles (waypoints, turn by turn) can be added to suit those who want them without affecting those whose devices can't use them, or have I missed anything? Do we have something close to consensus on that as a recommendation for the best compromise format for organisers who want a single-file answer (if we're confident that 500-point-limit devices really are quite rare at this point), or is there a fundamental incompatibility that means multiple different files are still the c ideal? We do have people with a preference for track-per-control rather than single-track, so I guess that means at least two files (or rather one file and one bundle) if one's looking to satisfy everyone.