Author Topic: Energy bills, government ‘help’ and the like  (Read 22834 times)

ian

Re: Energy bills, government ‘help’ and the like
« Reply #150 on: 10 October, 2023, 12:09:15 pm »
I spoke to the heating guy in my swimming club about such matters and akin to the above, he said you can get heat pumps fitted, but the pool of people who can and are willing to repair them is small (his company don't). If it's hard enough to get a normal heating engineer on-site, well, it doesn't take much imagination.

We pay a small fortune to BG for Homecare just because otherwise it's a crapshoot to get an engineer when you wake up to a cold shower.

To be fair, when our overcomplex boiler in the last house failed, it took about fifteen people who essentially replaced most of the components, until the guy from the boiler company admitted it would been cheaper and easier just to have fitted a new one. Never did find out what was wrong.

Re: Energy bills, government ‘help’ and the like
« Reply #151 on: 10 October, 2023, 08:04:15 pm »
As heat pumps are far more expensive and really need major work done to the house (much bigger rads or underfloor heating) for efficient and effective operation, won't everyone without mains gas just keep flogging old oil boilers as long as they possibly can?  Typically they are used to heat older, rural, houses which are much less easy to upgrade.

I thought they'd at least harmonise the sunset dates for gas and oil.  Heat pumps absolutely terrify me.

Had a heat pump for 9 years now, after replacing an oil fired combi boiler as no gas supply in the village.  This is a 1930s detached bungalow with more modern extensions.  Had to upgrade the energy efficiency of the house first but tbh all stuff any sensible person will already have done by now.  We had to add some extra loft insulation to bring it up to the standards at the time from the 100mm or less it had in place, replaced missing draught excluder strips, adjusted leaky doors and windows to fit the openings correctly and upgrade the halogen lights to led.  All these measures were sorted in a weekend of DIY and would have paid for themselves within a couple of years regardless of the heating system used.

The heat pump installer did the calculations for heat requirements of each room and recommended I upgraded 3 rads to larger sizes, I kept the same dimensions just replaced singles with doubles/triples. Not a difficult diy job or a massive cost although I had the installer do it in the end because I took the opportunity to have them move a couple of other rad locations while they were at it to ease later building work that I had planned.  The biggest cost apart from the pump itself was installing a hot water cylinder which the house did not previously have.  Our biggest complaint about the oil fired combi was that it simply couldn’t produce a decent hot shower at more than a trickle.  Whatever solution we chose had to solve this problem which means I massively overspec’ed the tank to keep Mrs JellyLegs happy and probably doubled the cost of that element.

The heat pump was significantly more expensive than a replacement oil boiler but the RHI payments over 7 years pretty much covered the full cost of the installation plus a chunk of the additional plumbing work I detailed above as well.  The annual running costs of the heating for the 9 years have proved to be slightly less than the cost of the oil it replaced, with no need for a smelly oil tank or oil boiler, and no worries about theft of the oil or oil leaks.  The heat pump has less of a footprint than the oil tank although in a different location and the hot water cylinder sits where the boiler previously lived.

Once we got used to the different way of using it, and a faulty part was rectified which could have as easily been a faulty boiler part, the heat pump works very well, no real issues with getting adequate heat or hot water, even in the coldest winter we have had.

Of course, that’s my experience only, your mileage may vary but I would have no qualms about going with a heat pump again if I moved house.

I would like to formally retract that comment about going with a heat pump again.  It looks very possible I will be going back to oil.  Nothing to do with the performance of the heat pump technology which was great, while it worked.  The unit died last week, just over 10 years from installation.  The basic story is neither the installer nor the manufacturer can tell exactly what has gone wrong.  The best the manufacturer can do is suggest I replace various PCBs from the internals, one at a time at £400+ each and if I replace them with no joy then they will give me a list of the next bits to try.  They obviously realise this is not an acceptable solution as their recommended action is to “upgrade” to a newer model, the controller board, mounting rack and wiring for which are not compatible with my current version so must all be ripped out.  Unbelievably, the replacement cost I am being quoted is actually more than a complete new installation.  Taking up this offer would swallow all the ten years of savings I made on my running costs, the Govt grant I received and more.  I can save a substantial amount (over £3k) of this extra cost by reinstalling an oil boiler and tank.  Not sure I can afford to do anything else.

That’s a downer - what make?

They’re sold as having a 25 year life, rather than the depressingly short 7-10 years you can expect from a condensing gas boiler (ours is 9 this winter…). On that basis and given the costs, there probably ought to be a requirement, or at least an enterprising manufacturer, to provide a c.15 year warranty.

Given current daytime electricity cost vs gas, I’d need a winter COP of 4 to break even in running costs. That, of course, is because I don’t benefit from the less expensive electricity I buy due to the marginal generators setting the price.

I’m sure that a government that considered it important, that actually had the capability to get stuff done and wasn’t in hock to fossil fuels and swivel eyed science deniers could actually make some progress on the, very real, problem of install and repair competence. You could do it with incentives, it wouldn’t have to be hard lefty…

Mrs Pingu

  • Who ate all the pies? Me
    • Twitter
Re: Energy bills, government ‘help’ and the like
« Reply #152 on: 10 October, 2023, 08:33:42 pm »
Wholesale gas prices have spiked due to sabotage on the gas interconnector between Finland and Estonia.
Do not clench. It only makes it worse.

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: Energy bills, government ‘help’ and the like
« Reply #153 on: 10 October, 2023, 09:41:12 pm »
My condensing boiler is 15 years old and absolutely fine.  I don't thrash it much but the previous owner of the house, a 97 year-old, did.
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

Re: Energy bills, government ‘help’ and the like
« Reply #154 on: 10 October, 2023, 09:57:19 pm »
As heat pumps are far more expensive and really need major work done to the house (much bigger rads or underfloor heating) for efficient and effective operation, won't everyone without mains gas just keep flogging old oil boilers as long as they possibly can?  Typically they are used to heat older, rural, houses which are much less easy to upgrade.

I thought they'd at least harmonise the sunset dates for gas and oil.  Heat pumps absolutely terrify me.

Had a heat pump for 9 years now, after replacing an oil fired combi boiler as no gas supply in the village.  This is a 1930s detached bungalow with more modern extensions.  Had to upgrade the energy efficiency of the house first but tbh all stuff any sensible person will already have done by now.  We had to add some extra loft insulation to bring it up to the standards at the time from the 100mm or less it had in place, replaced missing draught excluder strips, adjusted leaky doors and windows to fit the openings correctly and upgrade the halogen lights to led.  All these measures were sorted in a weekend of DIY and would have paid for themselves within a couple of years regardless of the heating system used.

The heat pump installer did the calculations for heat requirements of each room and recommended I upgraded 3 rads to larger sizes, I kept the same dimensions just replaced singles with doubles/triples. Not a difficult diy job or a massive cost although I had the installer do it in the end because I took the opportunity to have them move a couple of other rad locations while they were at it to ease later building work that I had planned.  The biggest cost apart from the pump itself was installing a hot water cylinder which the house did not previously have.  Our biggest complaint about the oil fired combi was that it simply couldn’t produce a decent hot shower at more than a trickle.  Whatever solution we chose had to solve this problem which means I massively overspec’ed the tank to keep Mrs JellyLegs happy and probably doubled the cost of that element.

The heat pump was significantly more expensive than a replacement oil boiler but the RHI payments over 7 years pretty much covered the full cost of the installation plus a chunk of the additional plumbing work I detailed above as well.  The annual running costs of the heating for the 9 years have proved to be slightly less than the cost of the oil it replaced, with no need for a smelly oil tank or oil boiler, and no worries about theft of the oil or oil leaks.  The heat pump has less of a footprint than the oil tank although in a different location and the hot water cylinder sits where the boiler previously lived.

Once we got used to the different way of using it, and a faulty part was rectified which could have as easily been a faulty boiler part, the heat pump works very well, no real issues with getting adequate heat or hot water, even in the coldest winter we have had.

Of course, that’s my experience only, your mileage may vary but I would have no qualms about going with a heat pump again if I moved house.

I would like to formally retract that comment about going with a heat pump again.  It looks very possible I will be going back to oil.  Nothing to do with the performance of the heat pump technology which was great, while it worked.  The unit died last week, just over 10 years from installation.  The basic story is neither the installer nor the manufacturer can tell exactly what has gone wrong.  The best the manufacturer can do is suggest I replace various PCBs from the internals, one at a time at £400+ each and if I replace them with no joy then they will give me a list of the next bits to try.  They obviously realise this is not an acceptable solution as their recommended action is to “upgrade” to a newer model, the controller board, mounting rack and wiring for which are not compatible with my current version so must all be ripped out.  Unbelievably, the replacement cost I am being quoted is actually more than a complete new installation.  Taking up this offer would swallow all the ten years of savings I made on my running costs, the Govt grant I received and more.  I can save a substantial amount (over £3k) of this extra cost by reinstalling an oil boiler and tank.  Not sure I can afford to do anything else.

That’s a downer - what make?

They’re sold as having a 25 year life, rather than the depressingly short 7-10 years you can expect from a condensing gas boiler (ours is 9 this winter…). On that basis and given the costs, there probably ought to be a requirement, or at least an enterprising manufacturer, to provide a c.15 year warranty.

Given current daytime electricity cost vs gas, I’d need a winter COP of 4 to break even in running costs. That, of course, is because I don’t benefit from the less expensive electricity I buy due to the marginal generators setting the price.

I’m sure that a government that considered it important, that actually had the capability to get stuff done and wasn’t in hock to fossil fuels and swivel eyed science deniers could actually make some progress on the, very real, problem of install and repair competence. You could do it with incentives, it wouldn’t have to be hard lefty…

The supplier is Mitsubishi who seem to produce the most efficient and most recommended air source heat pumps according to most installers. The installer doesn’t appear to be the issue, they are happy to attempt a repair at my risk and for a price, but from what I can gather Mitsubishi don’t recommend repair and aren’t being overly helpful.  That doesn’t fill me with confidence that I wouldn’t just be throwing not insignificant sums of money away without getting a solution.  The fact that in 10 years there have been another 7 versions of my heat pump released shows both the speed of innovation in heat pump design and possibly that there may be an urgent need to improve reliability.  My pump had a stated expected lifespan of 20-25 years according to Mitsubishi when installed but only a 7 year warranty.  Maybe mine just failed unexpectedly early and I have been unlucky.  It’s a risk I took when I decided not to take the insurance backed care package at install and self insured.  I am lucky that although it stings, I can afford to replace the system.  The thing is, I can’t afford to take the risk of seven to ten years being the true lifespan of these pumps and having to replace the whole system rather than just the failed part in another decade because nothing was compatible again.  That would take the total cost of ownership from substantially cheaper than oil to very substantially more expensive.

Gas isn’t an option for me, no supply to the village.  My achieved COP of something above 3 over 11 years had left me quids in v oil until this nasty shock. As I say, I have no qualms with the effectiveness of the technology, but purely with what appears to be Mitsubishi’s lack of support for older models.

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: Energy bills, government ‘help’ and the like
« Reply #155 on: 10 October, 2023, 10:13:20 pm »
That's really not good, and is going to be a barrier to widespread adoption.

It's not a new technology *gestures at all the countries that consider air-conditioning to be normal and ordinary*, and reliability should be very good, but that doesn't mean things won't fail (or be damaged) from time to time, and there really ought to be a better approach than installing a complete new unit (especially as many faults are likely to be something simple like a sensor or power supply capacitor).  No doubt this will improve somewhat as they become more widespread and the market stabilises, but until then it would seem that you're taking the same sort of gamble on long-term support by the manufacturer as you do with internet-of-shit devices.   >:(

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Energy bills, government ‘help’ and the like
« Reply #156 on: 10 October, 2023, 10:21:44 pm »
It's potentially far more disruptive than an a/c failure, as those are all air-source by nature of the product, so no ground to dig up to find the fault.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: Energy bills, government ‘help’ and the like
« Reply #157 on: 10 October, 2023, 10:27:35 pm »
Unless someone's dug a hole through something they shouldn't, it seems extremely unlikely that the buried part of a ground-source heat pump would be at fault.

Which makes me wonder if they're badger-proof...

Jaded

  • The Codfather
  • Formerly known as Jaded
Re: Energy bills, government ‘help’ and the like
« Reply #158 on: 11 October, 2023, 12:00:29 am »
My condensing boiler is 15 years old and absolutely fine.  I don't thrash it much but the previous owner of the house, a 97 year-old, did.

You often manage to bring Rule 34 into a thread.
It is simpler than it looks.

Re: Energy bills, government ‘help’ and the like
« Reply #159 on: 11 October, 2023, 08:22:31 am »
My condensing boiler is 15 years old and absolutely fine.  I don't thrash it much but the previous owner of the house, a 97 year-old, did.

You often manage to bring Rule 34 into a thread.


Rule 34:// Mountain bike shoes and pedals have their place. On a mountain bike.

?

Re: Energy bills, government ‘help’ and the like
« Reply #160 on: 11 October, 2023, 08:24:22 am »
As heat pumps are far more expensive and really need major work done to the house (much bigger rads or underfloor heating) for efficient and effective operation, won't everyone without mains gas just keep flogging old oil boilers as long as they possibly can?  Typically they are used to heat older, rural, houses which are much less easy to upgrade.

I thought they'd at least harmonise the sunset dates for gas and oil.  Heat pumps absolutely terrify me.

Had a heat pump for 9 years now, after replacing an oil fired combi boiler as no gas supply in the village.  This is a 1930s detached bungalow with more modern extensions.  Had to upgrade the energy efficiency of the house first but tbh all stuff any sensible person will already have done by now.  We had to add some extra loft insulation to bring it up to the standards at the time from the 100mm or less it had in place, replaced missing draught excluder strips, adjusted leaky doors and windows to fit the openings correctly and upgrade the halogen lights to led.  All these measures were sorted in a weekend of DIY and would have paid for themselves within a couple of years regardless of the heating system used.

The heat pump installer did the calculations for heat requirements of each room and recommended I upgraded 3 rads to larger sizes, I kept the same dimensions just replaced singles with doubles/triples. Not a difficult diy job or a massive cost although I had the installer do it in the end because I took the opportunity to have them move a couple of other rad locations while they were at it to ease later building work that I had planned.  The biggest cost apart from the pump itself was installing a hot water cylinder which the house did not previously have.  Our biggest complaint about the oil fired combi was that it simply couldn’t produce a decent hot shower at more than a trickle.  Whatever solution we chose had to solve this problem which means I massively overspec’ed the tank to keep Mrs JellyLegs happy and probably doubled the cost of that element.

The heat pump was significantly more expensive than a replacement oil boiler but the RHI payments over 7 years pretty much covered the full cost of the installation plus a chunk of the additional plumbing work I detailed above as well.  The annual running costs of the heating for the 9 years have proved to be slightly less than the cost of the oil it replaced, with no need for a smelly oil tank or oil boiler, and no worries about theft of the oil or oil leaks.  The heat pump has less of a footprint than the oil tank although in a different location and the hot water cylinder sits where the boiler previously lived.

Once we got used to the different way of using it, and a faulty part was rectified which could have as easily been a faulty boiler part, the heat pump works very well, no real issues with getting adequate heat or hot water, even in the coldest winter we have had.

Of course, that’s my experience only, your mileage may vary but I would have no qualms about going with a heat pump again if I moved house.

I would like to formally retract that comment about going with a heat pump again.  It looks very possible I will be going back to oil.  Nothing to do with the performance of the heat pump technology which was great, while it worked.  The unit died last week, just over 10 years from installation.  The basic story is neither the installer nor the manufacturer can tell exactly what has gone wrong.  The best the manufacturer can do is suggest I replace various PCBs from the internals, one at a time at £400+ each and if I replace them with no joy then they will give me a list of the next bits to try.  They obviously realise this is not an acceptable solution as their recommended action is to “upgrade” to a newer model, the controller board, mounting rack and wiring for which are not compatible with my current version so must all be ripped out.  Unbelievably, the replacement cost I am being quoted is actually more than a complete new installation.  Taking up this offer would swallow all the ten years of savings I made on my running costs, the Govt grant I received and more.  I can save a substantial amount (over £3k) of this extra cost by reinstalling an oil boiler and tank.  Not sure I can afford to do anything else.

That’s a downer - what make?

They’re sold as having a 25 year life, rather than the depressingly short 7-10 years you can expect from a condensing gas boiler (ours is 9 this winter…). On that basis and given the costs, there probably ought to be a requirement, or at least an enterprising manufacturer, to provide a c.15 year warranty.

Given current daytime electricity cost vs gas, I’d need a winter COP of 4 to break even in running costs. That, of course, is because I don’t benefit from the less expensive electricity I buy due to the marginal generators setting the price.

I’m sure that a government that considered it important, that actually had the capability to get stuff done and wasn’t in hock to fossil fuels and swivel eyed science deniers could actually make some progress on the, very real, problem of install and repair competence. You could do it with incentives, it wouldn’t have to be hard lefty…

The supplier is Mitsubishi who seem to produce the most efficient and most recommended air source heat pumps according to most installers. The installer doesn’t appear to be the issue, they are happy to attempt a repair at my risk and for a price, but from what I can gather Mitsubishi don’t recommend repair and aren’t being overly helpful.  That doesn’t fill me with confidence that I wouldn’t just be throwing not insignificant sums of money away without getting a solution.  The fact that in 10 years there have been another 7 versions of my heat pump released shows both the speed of innovation in heat pump design and possibly that there may be an urgent need to improve reliability.  My pump had a stated expected lifespan of 20-25 years according to Mitsubishi when installed but only a 7 year warranty.  Maybe mine just failed unexpectedly early and I have been unlucky.  It’s a risk I took when I decided not to take the insurance backed care package at install and self insured.  I am lucky that although it stings, I can afford to replace the system.  The thing is, I can’t afford to take the risk of seven to ten years being the true lifespan of these pumps and having to replace the whole system rather than just the failed part in another decade because nothing was compatible again.  That would take the total cost of ownership from substantially cheaper than oil to very substantially more expensive.

Gas isn’t an option for me, no supply to the village.  My achieved COP of something above 3 over 11 years had left me quids in v oil until this nasty shock. As I say, I have no qualms with the effectiveness of the technology, but purely with what appears to be Mitsubishi’s lack of support for older models.

Thanks, that’s interesting. As Kim says, it becomes a barrier to adoption, even if it happens twice in 10,000 installations - that’s a general observation and not a comment on your situation of course.

felstedrider

Re: Energy bills, government ‘help’ and the like
« Reply #161 on: 11 October, 2023, 09:17:22 am »
Wholesale gas prices have spiked due to sabotage on the gas interconnector between Finland and Estonia.

Up a bit, but nothing compared to last Winter.   They had already risen a bit as Oil had risen after the issues in Israel had moved the oil price.

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: Energy bills, government ‘help’ and the like
« Reply #162 on: 11 October, 2023, 09:40:02 am »
My condensing boiler is 15 years old and absolutely fine.  I don't thrash it much but the previous owner of the house, a 97 year-old, did.

You often manage to bring Rule 34 into a thread.


Rule 34:// Mountain bike shoes and pedals have their place. On a mountain bike.

?
Rule 34: If it exists, there is porn of it.
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: Energy bills, government ‘help’ and the like
« Reply #163 on: 11 October, 2023, 09:44:25 am »
Are heat pumps sensitive to careless transport and installation?  I can imagine the average Neanderthal British workman reducing its life by dropping it out of the van, turning it upside down to look for instructions, blocking the water circuit with insulation, and all the usual tricks.  They can't even install gas boilers reliably - we once had a brand new one that didn't work for 3 weeks (most of British Gas's engineers came to look at it).
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

Re: Energy bills, government ‘help’ and the like
« Reply #164 on: 11 October, 2023, 09:53:44 am »
If it has been working reliably for 7 years, I doubt the problem is the installation.

More likely:
dry joint (now with corrosion issues)
Cap gone; good like identifying which one
Valve wear or stickiness, and controlling circuit can't adjust
Vapour lock, from gradual buildup of gas in refrigerant
Stupid software bug (e.g. a time value badly stored and can't cope with the date)

Or something else.
None of it really out there in terms of repair difficulty.

IME, plumbers like joining pipe. They don't like diagnosing complex electronically-controlled systems.
<i>Marmite slave</i>

Re: Energy bills, government ‘help’ and the like
« Reply #165 on: 11 October, 2023, 11:15:55 am »
If it has been working reliably for 7 years, I doubt the problem is the installation.

More likely:
dry joint (now with corrosion issues)
Cap gone; good like identifying which one
Valve wear or stickiness, and controlling circuit can't adjust
Vapour lock, from gradual buildup of gas in refrigerant
Stupid software bug (e.g. a time value badly stored and can't cope with the date)

Or something else.
None of it really out there in terms of repair difficulty.

IME, plumbers like joining pipe. They don't like diagnosing complex electronically-controlled systems
.

I may have suggested to a colleague that joining pipes isn’t rocket science recently;)

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: Energy bills, government ‘help’ and the like
« Reply #166 on: 11 October, 2023, 01:18:53 pm »
Cap gone; good like identifying which one

See, this is exactly why modern life is rubbish.

It's generally pretty straightforward to identify which one.  It's usually the 400V electrolytic on the sharp end of the switching regulator.  And even if it's not that one, there's a decent chance it will have deformed in a way that's easily spotted by visual inspection.  And failing that, poking around in-circuit with an ESR meter usually works to detect dodgy caps.  And failing that, you can just replace all of them.  No deep understanding of what the circuit board is doing is required, but it does require a bit of time and soldering and not-zapping-yourself-on-charged-capacitor skills, which are beyond the scope of the average pipe-joiner.

Manufacturers don't want people doing repairs at this level, so don't provide the documentation that would make it orders of magnitude easier.  They'll sell you a replacement board for hundreds, but they're not even taking the faulty one back and determining what failed.  In days of yore, repair technicians would know that if the wossname refuses to start up you check the voltage at test point foo and if it's not in spec you replace C3 and try again.  Now we don't have any repair technicians.  Someone with the right electronics skills and equipment would cost the price of a new board, as they'd be reverse-engineering and working form first principles.  And since the standard faults aren't known, they'll take two days to conclude the board's probably fine and maybe it's a plumbing problem.

Re: Energy bills, government ‘help’ and the like
« Reply #167 on: 11 October, 2023, 01:43:51 pm »
Sounds like Kim should be quoting JL for some work.. 
We are making a New World (Paul Nash, 1918)

Re: Energy bills, government ‘help’ and the like
« Reply #168 on: 11 October, 2023, 03:00:57 pm »
Quote
Someone with the right electronics skills and equipment would cost the price of a new board, as they'd be reverse-engineering and working form first principles.

This is the real problem.

Goods are too cheap. The world of manufacturing is too efficient at producing incredibly complex devices, very cheaply.
<i>Marmite slave</i>

rogerzilla

  • When n+1 gets out of hand
Re: Energy bills, government ‘help’ and the like
« Reply #169 on: 11 October, 2023, 03:28:00 pm »
Also, the people building the boards are probably outsourced and have no obligation to, or interest in, the final consumer.  You see this in other industries, where batches of widgets are turned out, along with a few spares, by a contractor in China, who then moves onto a different contract.
Hard work sometimes pays off in the end, but laziness ALWAYS pays off NOW.

Re: Energy bills, government ‘help’ and the like
« Reply #170 on: 11 October, 2023, 06:46:54 pm »
Having heard one side only of the long conversation between Mitsubishi “Helpline” and the installer’s technician, I definitely got the impression that Mitsubishi had no interest in helping fix the problem and every interest in selling me a complete new system.  Having gone through the quote in more detail, the installers are also not averse to taking the mick but they aren’t in the same league as Mitsubishi.

felstedrider

Re: Energy bills, government ‘help’ and the like
« Reply #171 on: 12 October, 2023, 12:17:26 pm »
Good News

1 - Ofgem have removed the Market Stabilisation Charge with effect from Mar-24.   This is where the acquiring supplier has to pay the outgoing supplier a fee to cover any costs incurred from wholesale hedging.  This stopped suppliers from quoting for new business.
2 - Ofgem have also removed the ban on acquisition only tariffs from Mar-24.   Should hopefully bring some more new offerings to market.   

Bad News

Ofgem are taking 9 months to review any applications for supply licenses.   There's new entrants sat in the wings unable to enter the market.  This is likely an over-reaction to them letting too many underfunded or ill-prepared people come into the sector a couple of years ago.   (I think this is bad news but others may think different.

Re: Energy bills, government ‘help’ and the like
« Reply #172 on: 12 October, 2023, 01:33:46 pm »
2 - Ofgem have also removed the ban on acquisition only tariffs from Mar-24.   Should hopefully bring some more new offerings to market.   

AKA freedom to overcharge anyone who doesn't want to switch providers every 6 months.

felstedrider

Re: Energy bills, government ‘help’ and the like
« Reply #173 on: 12 October, 2023, 01:59:11 pm »
2 - Ofgem have also removed the ban on acquisition only tariffs from Mar-24.   Should hopefully bring some more new offerings to market.   

AKA freedom to overcharge anyone who doesn't want to switch providers every 6 months.

The ruling means you have to offer new tariffs to your existing customer base as well as new customers.   Under the price cap methodology the supplier is duly required to hedge their customer base.   So the supplier has bought all of their power and gas quarter ahead and fixed those prices to the consumer.   This is good risk management.   If the customer then leaves after a month the supplier could lose money on any pre-hedged volume (hence the introduction of the MSC).   In this instance they can't offer a new tariff to an existing customer as they'd take a loss.   If Ofgem say that acquisition only tariffs are banned then the supplier is left in a stagnant position, losing money on an existing customer base but unable to grow or prevent demand erosion.   It's an awful market to be in.

Again not looking to defend any market participant but there's a lot of misinformation out there and this has not got better in volatile times.

Re: Energy bills, government ‘help’ and the like
« Reply #174 on: 12 October, 2023, 02:25:49 pm »
You're arguing that it's more important to minimise any financial risk to the suppliers than it is to prevent the endless fucking over of consumers with continuous tariff churn and new customer offers?  I'm not sure if I've misunderstood?