Return train tickets to be abolished?

[Cudzoziemiec]

Return tickets are set to be scrapped as Rishi Sunak gives the green light to long-awaited sweeping reforms of Britain’s railways.

Mark Harper, the Transport Secretary, will next week announce plans for new ticketing arrangements as he outlines how the Government will address a crisis on the railways.

The rollout of "single-leg pricing" will be unveiled, The Sunday Telegraph has been told.

It means that two singles will equal a return – making return tickets redundant – having proved a success during trials with passengers.

Mr Harper will also commit to Great British Railways (GBR▸ ), a new public body that will bring the operation of track and trains under the same place for the first time. GBR was first unveiled by Boris Johnson and Grant Shapps in May 2021, but progress has stalled amid criticism that the body was tantamount to “nationalisation through the back door”.

During the hiatus, fears have grown that GBR would be scrapped. Mr Harper will show that “the idea that GBR is dead, is dead”, according to one person who has seen a draft of his speech announcing the reforms next week.

A Government source said that the speech was still being finalised this weekend. The new public body is expected to take on responsibility for timetabling and ticketing, which are currently controlled by the Department for Transport.

Ticket pricing reform ranks among the most complicated issues that remain unsolved, since privatisation by successive governments. There are 55 million different fares, according to trade body the Rail Delivery Group.

Mr Harper is expected to hint at the greater use of  ticketing technology – a signal that paper tickets could soon be scrapped in favour of QR codes and smartcards similar to the Oyster Card in use across public transport in London.

Single-leg pricing was trialled in 2020 by east coast train operator LNER» . Return tickets were dropped in favour of two single tickets at the same price.

At the time, LNER said: “Rail tickets can be confusing. We want to make choosing and buying rail tickets simpler and more transparent. We hope this new structure is more straightforward: there are no more return tickets – one journey requires just one ticket.”

Keith Williams, the former deputy chair of John Lewis and ex-chief executive of British Airways, is expected to attend Mr Harper’s speech, which will be delivered in Westminster on Tuesday evening. Mr Williams conducted a two-a-half-year “root and branch” review of the railways on behalf of the Government and was the first to propose the idea of a “guiding mind” public body to prevent state meddling in day-to-day train operations.

But critics argue that Mr Johnson’s interpretation of Mr Williams's concept would have meant greater rather than less state intervention. Mr Williams previously envisaged the public body to be akin to the “Fat Controller” after the cantankerous character from Thomas the Tank Engine. Sources say that under Mr Sunak, the Fat Controller “will be put on a diet”.

Fears persist, however, that GBR will throttle the role of the private sector on the railways.

Former minister John Penrose, Conservative MP for Weston-super-Mare, said: "Rather than bureaucrats or politicians pretending they know how much each passenger's journey should cost, why not get lots of different rail firms competing to beat each others' prices so tickets are always as cheap as possible?"

MP for Blackpool North Paul Maynard, rail minister under Boris Johnson added: “Mr Harper's speech is long awaited. We are all keen to understand the shape and scope of GBR, and how the balance will be struck between the guiding mind and fat controller.

“As always, I'll be looking to see the passenger's interest placed firmly at the centre of policy making – and a recognition we need to get the passengers back if the railway is to avoid more painful times ahead.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/return-rail-tickets-to-be-scrapped/ar-AA177Zhr

[mrcharly-YHT]

The best discounts are on advance fares; my guess is that they will do away with those.

[Karla]

My guess is more that they'll turn everything into an advance fare: for a while they've been trying to normalise the idea that you should travel on a specific train rather than having a flexible ticket.

[Polar Bear]

Call me cynical but let's be honest about this and call it out for the smokescreen allowing for unregulated price hikes that it is in my view inevitably going to be.

[Syd]

I do hope that, once introduced, the system will allow an out journey and a return journey to be added to a ‘basket’ so purchased at the same time. Otherwise I envisage, at busy times, people buying their outward journey but possibly losing out on their return as it sold out between times.

[Cudzoziemiec]

Call me cynical but let's be honest about this and call it out for the smokescreen allowing for unregulated price hikes that it is in my view inevitably going to be.

I don't think that's an inevitability. I think there will be conflict in GBR/DfT/TOCs between those who want to maximize revenue/profit and those who want to achieve a more politically advantageous outcome. The result is not certain, especially with most (all?) TOCs now being paid on a management fee basis.

[GdS]

I can't see how Day Return fares are going to remain competitive. From my local station I can get a CDR for £17 to London when a single is the same ( or £10 more travelling before 0900)

they are not just going to make the single fare £8.50 are they? I thought off peak fares were just to encourage people onto otherwise empty trains

[Rod Marton]

I'm not sure that day returns are competitive anyway. At least not universally. For example, on my commute it is already cheaper to buy two singles than a day return. The reason for this is that the return journey (single) is about half the price of the outward journey (single). Both off-peak, by the way. What ought to happen is that the complexity of ticket prices needs to be simplified - logically, it ought not to be possible to save money by split ticketing, for example. But I suspect that this is far too complicated to change in one go.

[GdS]

I think it's a Network Southeast (or maybe Southern Region) thing, day returns have always been a few pence more than a single but only available after 0900)

and then you deduct the railcard discount which is also not available until off peak (usually)

[Polar Bear]

I will be travelling to Northampton from Rugby before 8:00a.m. on Wednesday.  A single fare is £10.20 without any Railcard discounts (disabled Railcard).  A return ticket coming back mid-afternoon is £10.40.

Anybody seriously expect to see the single fare drop a fiver?

[rogerzilla]

A ticket to Swindon?  Certainly, sir.  You do know you can never come back from there?

[hubner]

How about a price based on distance travelled? That would be too simple.

[robgul]

I will be travelling to Northampton from Rugby before 8:00a.m. on Wednesday.  A single fare is £10.20 without any Railcard discounts (disabled Railcard).  A return ticket coming back mid-afternoon is £10.40.

Anybody seriously expect to see the single fare drop a fiver?

Ditto experience here - on Wednesdays I take the train about 5 stops to the club run meet ..... single fare is £3.15, with Railcard  - return is £3.20  (I usually ride home, not just to save the 5p) - so how does that work if they're not selling returns??

[quixoticgeek]

Brilliant! excellent idea. More of this please.

The pricing system in the UK has been bonkers for years. Going to London from Kent it was typically about 50p more for a return vs a single. Which is fine if your transport system is setup to handle the simple use case of a single bread winner going from home, to the office, and home again. But Say you wanted to goto London for lunch, then down to Brighton for dinner and a show, then back to Canterbury afterwards. The track layout supports this journey, but the cheapest tickets are a return to London, then a return from London to Brighton, making for a very long trip, or a very expensive trip.

Having everything as singles allows for trip chaining, which is something more often done by women. Take the kids to school, then goto the pharmacy to pick up a prescription, then onto grandma's to drop it off, then on to the office. Most UK public transport systems are really badly setup when it comes to trip chaining. Which is a shame if we a) want to get people to stop using cars and b) want a more equitable society.

The OV Chipkaart system in the Netherlands is brilliant for enabling trip chaining, I've done trips to do errands around the city where I've had a single trip chain last over 5 hours, and the OV chipkaart system to see it as a single journey.

With the UK moving to everything being a single, I think the next step is to also ban all advance fairs. So the only tickets are singles, that are the same cost when you buy on the day, or when you buy 3 months in advance. It will also stop rail companies replying to the the complaint that they are too expensive with "But we have tickets from just 5 quid!" sure you do, there's about 1 ticket for that price, available on a Tuesday at 1135, and only if you book it 9 months in advance.

UK train tickets need an overhaul. Moving to just singles is a great first step. Now make it uniform pricing across the country, and make it transparent.

J

[Jaded]

Uniform pricing... how is that done?

[Jaded]

I do hope that, once introduced, the system will allow an out journey and a return journey to be added to a ‘basket’ so purchased at the same time. Otherwise I envisage, at busy times, people buying their outward journey but possibly losing out on their return as it sold out between times.

You can do that now. I regularly buy two tickets in one basket.

[quixoticgeek]

Uniform pricing... how is that done?

Government regulation.

It helps if you nationalise a lot of it too...

J

[Jaded]

Uniform pricing... how is that done?

Government regulation.

It helps if you nationalise a lot of it too...

J

No, I mean how is it worked out. What is actually meant by 'Uniform Pricing'.

[Adam]

Set price per mile travelled, applied across the entire network.   

[Jaded]

Set price per mile travelled, applied across the entire network.   

Which would be diametrically opposite to the Highlands and Islands fuel discount.

[quixoticgeek]

Uniform pricing... how is that done?

Government regulation.

It helps if you nationalise a lot of it too...

J

No, I mean how is it worked out. What is actually meant by 'Uniform Pricing'.

Oh right, well in .NL you check in which costs 1.08, and then pay 19c per km. So if you checkin and travel 3km, then it's 1.08 + (19*3). if you checkout of a tram, and check back in again to another tram within 35 mins, you don't pay the 1.08 again, This is the trip chaining I speak of. I often get charged things like 20c where I've just taken the tram 1km up the road to the next shop I need. This is the same if I get on a metro from GVB, or a tram from R-Net, or a bus from Arriva.

For rail journeys here, it's the same concept, but the price per km goes down the further you go. It's still a simple case of going further costs more, but it's not quite as simple as a 200km journey is 200* cost per km. As the cost per km for 190-200 is lower than the cost per km for 0-20km.

Personally if I was doing this in the UK, I would take the view that no single rail journey should ever be more than say, 70 quid. Even if it's Newkey to the kyle of lochalsh, and then set the maths accordingly. Say a quid to checkin, then 1p per km for the first 100km, and then 0.8 per km. etc...

J

[FifeingEejit]

From my local station ot Edinburgh
Super off peak day return 13.60
Off peak day return 16.90
Anytime day return 23.80
Single 14.30

 

probably still cheaper than parking in edinburgh though

[CrazyEnglishTriathlete]

Most of the South East of England fares are effectively worked out on pence per mile.  It's just that figure is set to rise to just over 50p/mile in March.  In those far off days when I was office based, I would travel in 4 - 5 days a week and get a weekly ticket (that reduced the cost per mile substantially).

Now I take the train 2 days/week I pay the full fare each time.  That, and the unpredictability of services due to train strikes means that my pre-pandemic rail mileage of c20,000 per annum dropped to just under 10,000 last year and looks set to drop further this year.  PBP also gives me the opportunity to justify a 100-mile round trip commute on the bike (when I need to and its not icy) into the office at a saving of £47/day - set to rise by 5% or so in March.

I still have fond memories of my Chipkaart from the time I spent working in Den Haag and flying into Schipol.  One card that did trains and trams.

[CrazyEnglishTriathlete]

I'm not sure that day returns are competitive anyway. At least not universally. For example, on my commute it is already cheaper to buy two singles than a day return. The reason for this is that the return journey (single) is about half the price of the outward journey (single). Both off-peak, by the way. What ought to happen is that the complexity of ticket prices needs to be simplified - logically, it ought not to be possible to save money by split ticketing, for example. But I suspect that this is far too complicated to change in one go.

Cross-country rail fare from Basingstoke - Birmingham - c£130.  Day return from Basingstoke - Banbury plus day return from Banbury - Birmingham c£56  (that was last year).   You use the same train (and my firm's travel booking system even allows me to reserve seats on the train).  I think other posters are right to smell a rat - that such anomalies that make certain rail journeys affordable will disappear in the new system.

Most journeys are cheaper for me (fully costed - not just petrol but wear and tear etc) to use my not-very-fuel efficient Volvo, rather than a UK train.

[Cudzoziemiec]

For lots of journeys, there's only a single or a day return. For instance Bristol to Gloucester, £10.60 single, £11 day return. If you're coming back on a different day, you need two singles at £21.20. That's at off peak. If you're travelling at peak times, a single is £14.50 but there's also an Anytime return, which costs... £19.70. So it can be cheaper to travel at peak time than off-peak! (sort of)