Minimum height for low flying military aircraft in the UK

[pcolbeck]

Walking the dog half an hour ago a pair of F15s screamed over at what felt like 100ft, proper "I can count the rivets on that" flypast. Mrs Pcolbeck said it shook the house.
We often get low flying RAF, USAF and sometimes other visiting air-force planes at low level over the village even though the nearest active RAF base is Leeming about 40 miles away.

This got me thinking what is the minimum height for military aircraft to fly at in UK airspace?

It's not that I want to complain (though it does seem to annoy some locals), I enjoy watching them and they have to practice somewhere, I am just curious.

[jiberjaber]

In certain areas it can be down to 100ft AGL!

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/military-low-flying#:~:text=The%20UK%20military%20low%20flying,mean%20sea%20level%20(%20MSL%20).

Looks like most of this week there is activity in Northern England between hours of 10am to 12pm and 2pm to 4pm

[Mr Larrington]

Paging TimC!

[pcolbeck]

We are in LFA11

It seems training exercise Cobra Warrior is on at the moment with several nations taking part. Some Indian Air-force units are at RAF Waddington.

[Wobbly John]

Back in the ‘70s in the fens, I have seen Hercules have to climb to clear river bank, therefore flying at approximately sea level… 

[MikeFromLFE]

Back in the ‘70s in the fens, I have seen Hercules have to climb to clear river bank, therefore flying at approximately sea level… 

If we're talking history - during the Falklands conflict we had Vulcans and A!?? Tankbusters skimming our TV aerial (not an exaggeration!)
We lived near a power station that was used to simulate bombing runs. (Staythorpe, Notts)

[Mr Larrington]

There is a tale of a large gouge in the Nevada desert, left there by the wingtip of a Vulcan performing a steep turn during one of the Red Flag Exercises.

[TimC]

Paging TimC!

You called?

The minimum height for military aircraft in UK is normally 250ft ‘MSD’ - that’s Minimum Separation Distance, so that is a ‘bubble’ around the aircraft that would include vertical thingies like pylons, for instance. No part of that bubble is allowed to touch anything. In the Tactical Low Flying Areas within Scotland and Wales, specifically trained crews are allowed to fly at 100ft MSD. That is seriously hard work! Most of the time, the low-flying military aircraft you see in UK will be between 300-500ft above the ground underneath them - which may well not be at the same elevation as the observer is.

There are lower limits for helicopters doing ‘Nap Of The Earth’ (NOTE) training, which is basically hiding behind trees and the like. That’s basically ‘don’t hit anything’. And there are specific occasions when aircraft in certain roles may be cleared below 100ft. An example would be a C-130 doing Ultra Low Level Airdrop, which is between 7 and 15ft.

Edit: don’t take any notice of anyone claiming their house or a local landmark was used for ‘simulated bombing runs’. While low level training will often include ‘time on target’ exercises - so a specific place will have to be overflown at a very specific time (+- a very small number of seconds) these are not ‘bombing runs’, which require a set and complex series of actions depending on the weapons being simulated. These are generally only done on dedicated ranges where the manoeuvres required are expected and understood. There are of course standard routes which will have specified turning points, which may well be notable landmarks. But we are not looking for your house!

Edit 2: ignore any apocryphal tales about Vulcans or Buccaneers. These were mainly spread by their crews to intimidate their American opponents in Red Flag exercises, and have gained legendary status!

[quixoticgeek]

There are lower limits for helicopters doing ‘Nap Of The Earth’ (NOTE) training, which is basically hiding behind trees and the like. That’s basically ‘don’t hit anything’.

It's very surreal to be standing on firm ground and being able to look down on a chinook. Totally did not expect one to be flying up a valley in Kent.

J

[Kim]

There are lower limits for helicopters doing ‘Nap Of The Earth’ (NOTE) training, which is basically hiding behind trees and the like. That’s basically ‘don’t hit anything’.

It's very surreal to be standing on firm ground and being able to look down on a chinook.

Depends on how firm the ground the Chinook is standing on in IIRC...

[FifeingEejit]

When leuchars had resident squadrons we did get to see quite a few low flying aircraft quite a lot, not sure how low of course.

Was always quite good seeing them flying over tentsmuir when out in the bike as they tended to be low and slow even though the main runway goes the other way.


Seen the underside of a herc flying up the A9 while driving  and a chinook following the A82 below mountain top level on Rannoch muir heading into glen coe from the side of black rock cottage.

Sent from my IV2201 using Tapatalk

[Jaded]

My experience of low flying now compated with 5-10 years ago is that it used to be common (several time a week in summer)  and now is rare (not many times a year)

I put that down to the fact that there are far fewer planes available. More sophisticated and way more expensive, but not about.

[quixoticgeek]

There are lower limits for helicopters doing ‘Nap Of The Earth’ (NOTE) training, which is basically hiding behind trees and the like. That’s basically ‘don’t hit anything’.

It's very surreal to be standing on firm ground and being able to look down on a chinook.

Depends on how firm the ground the Chinook is standing on in IIRC...

Should have clarified. The Chinook was flying by.

J

[TheLurker]

My experience of low flying ... now is rare (not many times a year)

I put that down to the fact that there are far fewer planes available. More sophisticated and way more expensive, but not about.

I *think* that it may be due in part to operational experience in the Iraq war.  IIRC Cold War doctrine was to send aircraft in low and fast to evade radar & other AA defences, which is why, when I was a young Lurker, we used to get Canberras, Phantoms & Jaguars screaming over the house at nought feet on an almost monthly basis as they practiced that sort of flying.  I have read somewhere (years & years ago, Grauniad, Indy, the Reg*?) that this low approach was found not to work in Iraq and the RAF lost aircraft as a direct result of it where the USAF did not suffer as badly.

Someone who knows more will be along to correct this if it is wrong.

*There was an ex-RN bomb-disposal bod used to write on defence related stuff on El-Reg, it might have been in one of his articles. 

[SoreTween]

Lewis Page

He was an amusing read until he started to include his pet rant¹ in every article he wrote no matter how diverse the title subject.

¹Waste and inefficiency in military procurement, also the subject of his book.

[CrazyEnglishTriathlete]

I remember hiking in the Fisherfield Forest north of the Torridon Hills.  This used to be used for low flying training, so was able to look down on planes flying below.  The most terrifying moment was when two planes flew overhead.  As they are doing (I presume) about 500mph - and they are 250 feet above ground - they reach you almost at the same time their sound waves hit - so you go from silence to 100+DB in a moment.  I ended up crumbling to the ground in shock.  In their defence, very few people hike in that area.

[Cudzoziemiec]

There are lower limits for helicopters doing ‘Nap Of The Earth’ (NOTE) training, which is basically hiding behind trees and the like. That’s basically ‘don’t hit anything’.

It's very surreal to be standing on firm ground and being able to look down on a chinook. Totally did not expect one to be flying up a valley in Kent.

J

Had that been the Netherlands, I'd have expected you to look down and see a helicopter, then up to see a submarine.

[pcolbeck]

I just read that afterburners (reheat) isn't allowed in the normal LFAs. Last week I watched a couple of F15s dog fighting over our village. The lowest one punched in reheat as he did a steep turning climb from low level, not for long but he was pointing three quarters away from me and the two engines lit up as he climbed. Naughty boy (or girl)

[pumpkin]

There is the Mach Loop in North Wales beloved of aviation enthusiast and the aircraft are below you. But it is a deep valley. Plenty of fast jet action on YT

[pcolbeck]

There is the Mach Loop in North Wales beloved of aviation enthusiast and the aircraft are below you. But it is a deep valley. Plenty of fast jet action on YT

I've seen Tonkas below me when in the hills in Scotland as well. It is odd looking down on fast jets.

[rr]

I grew up in Malvern and we had regular low flights, walking on the hills I regularly looked down on aircraft including a Hercules. The red arrows used to practice over my school.
A memorable incident was hearing a fast jet and then an explosion and a crash. The pilot of a Jaguar had ejected and the plane had buried itself next to the sewage works.

Sent from my motorola edge 20 using Tapatalk

[TimC]

Low flying in places like the Welsh or Scottish mountains at speeds of 210 - 420 knots (depending on aircraft type) is bloody hard work, and in general the minima will only be approached when cresting ridges. To get down to and maintain 250ft MSD - let alone 100ft - really needs significantly flat topography. So when you're hillwalking and looking down on fast jets in the Mach Loop, for example, they will almost certainly be well above the minima. I've flown the Mach Loop in Bulldogs, Jet Provosts, Hawks, Hunters, Lightnings, Jetstreams and Hercules, in formations of up to 18 aircraft - and passengered in several other types - and I know of what I speak!

Reheat is discouraged at low level, but it is essential in hard manoeuvring or in a weather escape procedure, so it is not a 'do not', it's a 'try not to'!

[sojournermike]

I’ve looked down on fast jets in North Wales and Mrs S, many years ago, looked down on a pair that approached from opposite directions and collided. One I think went down and the other limped home with a scar on its belly.

[sojournermike]

Paging TimC!

You called?

The minimum height for military aircraft in UK is normally 250ft ‘MSD’ - that’s Minimum Separation Distance, so that is a ‘bubble’ around the aircraft that would include vertical thingies like pylons, for instance. No part of that bubble is allowed to touch anything. In the Tactical Low Flying Areas within Scotland and Wales, specifically trained crews are allowed to fly at 100ft MSD. That is seriously hard work! Most of the time, the low-flying military aircraft you see in UK will be between 300-500ft above the ground underneath them - which may well not be at the same elevation as the observer is.

There are lower limits for helicopters doing ‘Nap Of The Earth’ (NOTE) training, which is basically hiding behind trees and the like. That’s basically ‘don’t hit anything’. And there are specific occasions when aircraft in certain roles may be cleared below 100ft. An example would be a C-130 doing Ultra Low Level Airdrop, which is between 7 and 15ft.

Edit: don’t take any notice of anyone claiming their house or a local landmark was used for ‘simulated bombing runs’. While low level training will often include ‘time on target’ exercises - so a specific place will have to be overflown at a very specific time (+- a very small number of seconds) these are not ‘bombing runs’, which require a set and complex series of actions depending on the weapons being simulated. These are generally only done on dedicated ranges where the manoeuvres required are expected and understood. There are of course standard routes which will have specified turning points, which may well be notable landmarks. But we are not looking for your house!

Edit 2: ignore any apocryphal tales about Vulcans or Buccaneers. These were mainly spread by their crews to intimidate their American opponents in Red Flag exercises, and have gained legendary status!

[/b]


Indeed, as any file knows and as confirmed by RAF Luton, you send a Canberra on the most critical, high speed and altitude, missions

[FifeingEejit]

Reheat is discouraged at low level, but it is essential in hard manoeuvring or in a weather escape procedure, so it is not a 'do not', it's a 'try not to'!

Generally we'd only see them lit once the Typhoons and Tornados were off the coast, except when it was a scramble of the fully armed one to intercept the Russians.
Noticeably louder, particularly the time the flight path used most of the tay at about 3am