How do good / bad wheels ride?

[fruitcake]

Lately I've begun to realise that the quality of the wheels makes a dramatic difference to the ride quality of a bike. A steel road bike which I'd considered a poor climber (when it was fitted with an entry level Shimano wheelset) climbed reasonably well with mid level Trek wheels. That bike also soaked up more of the bumps in the road when ridden with the better wheels.

I'm hoping to do some back to back rides with each wheelset to compare the steering characteristics both at low and high speeds. The steering is less responsive than I'd like - there's a 'mushiness' to it - when the entry-level wheels are fitted that may go away with the better wheels.

What else will good wheels do for a mediocre frameset, in terms of ride characteristics? And why?

What's happening with poor quality wheels that might cause a bike to climb/steer poorly?

[citoyen]

That mushiness comes from poor wheel building more than the quality of the components.

Specifically, not enough tension in the spokes and/or uneven tension.

[mrcharly-YHT]

I think that heavy rims can affect the feel of a ride. Slow to accelerate, hard work climbing and a general 'leaden' feel.

However, heavy rims might be just the ticket for round-world touring, and hence not a 'bad' wheel.

Slack spokes will make for a horrible feel when riding.

[FifeingEejit]

Slack spokes will make for a horrible feel when riding.

yeah, interesting speed wobble at ~50kmh on fireroad at Pitfichie revealed a very slack wheel to me once

[citoyen]

That bike also soaked up more of the bumps in the road when ridden with the better wheels.

Thinking about this some more... if your better wheels are less mushy, ie stiffer, they won't soak up the bumps so well - stiffness and compliance are mutually exclusive - so that would be down to something else, most likely the tyres.

Did you use the same tyres (and pressures) on both wheelsets? Even if you did, a difference in the width of the rims could perhaps account for slight differences in tyre performance/ride feel.

Obviously it's not the frame that's making the difference if it's the same frame both times.

I think that heavy rims can affect the feel of a ride. Slow to accelerate, hard work climbing and a general 'leaden' feel.

There's more to it than just weight though, isn't there? A deep carbon rim is going to weigh more than a slender aluminium rim but the carbon rim is also likely to be stiffer, giving a more responsive ride.

I'm always wary of the [pseudo-]science when it comes to bicycle wheels but the general consensus of the experts seems to be that up to a certain point, the increased stiffness and aero benefits of deep carbon rims might still trump the weight penalty on climbs, even for a fairly average cyclist.

We probably shouldn't overlook the placebo effect of "better" wheels as well. I wonder if this might actually make more real difference to average cyclists than a few grams of weight difference or a couple of watts of aero benefit.

[Lightning Phil]

Badly adjusted or worn out bearings or lack of grease may affect how well the wheels roll along.

[Asterix, the former Gaul.]

A bike I rode suffered from the dreaded 'shimmy' on descents. Tried messing with everything, except the hubs which were Campag - what could go wrong with Campag.  Then I had to change the hubs and the shimmy disappeared as if by magic.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     

[Frank9755]

Generally, tyres make more difference to how the bike feels than wheels. So did you use the same tyres at the same pressure on each?  Then are the rims the same width, as a different width will make the same tyre feel a bit different?

But if the bad wheels are bad enough, they can make a difference - what others said: poor spoke tension, out of shape in both dimensions, cracked rim, worn out hubs, etc. 

What is 'poor climbing' - just slow, or something else as well, eg how it feels? 

Heavy will clearly be a bit slower to climb, but you would need to measure it quite carefully to detect it - weight doesn't make that much difference if you are not racing.  People often talk about rotational weight being massively important but, in absolute terms, the forces are tiny (put the bike in a stand and see how hard it is to make the wheel rotate with one finger...)

All things being equal, I can't immediately think what would make the 'bad' wheels feel worse on bumps though - unless it was different tyres or pressure.  Poor spoke tension would give some suspension which should actually help with that.  Maybe egg-shape rim deformation could add in some extra vibration?   Possibly a loose hub or trashed bearing could feel worse on bumps...?

[mrcharly-YHT]

I think that rim internal width can change the feel of tyres.

[citoyen]

Different rim widths will change the actual width of the tyres (wider rims = increased tyre width) and therefore the volume of the tyre and the shape of the contact patch on the road.

It will also affect how the tyre performs in cornering.

Whether the differences are enough to be noticeable by the average rider is another matter.

[Kim]

Different rim widths will change the actual width of the tyres (wider rims = increased tyre width) and therefore the volume of the tyre and the shape of the contact patch on the road.

It will also affect how the tyre performs in cornering.

Whether the differences are enough to be noticeable by the average rider is another matter.

Probably more so than the ride difference between competently built wheels of equivalent rim width.  (I accept that especially heavy or especially aero wheels will have a noticeable effect on how the bike handles under acceleration and at speed.)

I'm also betting that the psychological effect of the noise of carbon fibre can be significant.

[vorsprung]

The relatively light wheels that came with my Fairlight climb better than the previous wheels, especially if I put gp5000 on them

Dead true, stiff enough, good tyres, light weight, good bearings in the hubs, brakes / mudguards not rubbing - surely this is kinda obvious?

[Kim]

The relatively light wheels that came with my Fairlight climb better than the previous wheels, especially if I put gp5000 on them

Dead true, stiff enough, good tyres, light weight, good bearings in the hubs, brakes / mudguards not rubbing - surely this is kinda obvious?

Sure, but I'd suggest that the tyres dominate the effects of the other factors, unless they're severe enough to classify as 'broken' rather than just 'not good'.

(Weight is a special case, as whether the effect of a difference is perceptible depends mainly on the weight of the rider, as well as that of the rest of the bike.)

[citoyen]

Whether the differences are enough to be noticeable by the average rider is another matter.

Probably more so than the ride difference between competently built wheels of equivalent rim width. 

Yes, I expect you're right. I just wonder how much of a difference there has to be in rim width for the effects on ride characteristics to be noticeable by the average cyclist. Speaking for myself, I'm not sure I'm sensitive enough to pick up on these things unless the differences are drastic.

I would certainly admit that I notice differences in tyres more than wheels.

[grams]

I doubt much of this stuff would stand up to real A/B testing, though I’m sure if you spent a lot on your wheels you will definitely perceive a rich detailed soundstage and dynamic colourful bass.

[sojournermike]

I doubt much of this stuff would stand up to real A/B testing, though I’m sure if you spent a lot on your wheels you will definitely perceive a rich detailed soundstage and dynamic colourful bass.

Indeed, the noise of the floor is much lower and the crystalline clarity draws you in - obviously not if you’ve succumbed to the temptation of digital gears though.

[citoyen]

I replaced the bog standard Di2 cables on my bike with gold braided cables. You can really feel a difference in the clarity of every gear shift.

[Cudzoziemiec]

I'm surprised bog cables even work – and it can't be hygienic.

[Kim]

I'm surprised bog cables even work – and it can't be hygienic.

No, it's (oxygen-free) hydraulic.