The S word

[Martin]

This post was inspired by my experience today. As many of you you know I run a hilly 100km around (names changed to protect the innocent) which attracts a loyal and healthy clientelle but never rises above about 75 entrants. I offered to help man a marshalling point on my club's 25 TT today, and subsequently found out from the TT organiser that there was a sportive in the similar area on the same day (the only way I would have known). I checked the link to find that the sportive was more or less a carbon copy of my own event minus a few of the steeper hills; but was waymarked, offered the usual liquid / solid cyclist fuel that we obviously don't know about had a £20 entry fee and had a very slick website to match.

I noticed quite a few of the waymarks around whilst out and about yesterday and today (and very professional they were too complete with little signs before the tricky turns).

On the way back from the TT I decided to ride the reverse of the sportive course just to see who was riding this rather expensive event. I saw literally hundreds of riders all packing very serious kit; all having a great time and all riding flawlessly.

I saw precisely two people of the (full) 300 rider field I knew; the first was lidless so probably not part of the event and the second just happened to have crossed the event's path whilst also out and about and was just following the others.

The long and short of this is that IMO Audax is failing dismally to attract this very eager market at this sort of distance and we need to do something to prevent AUK events like this vanishing completely

Today was a real eye opener for me.

[LiamFitz]

I have puzzled about this one for a while.

I don't hold any political views about the relative merits of Audax and Sportives but I do wonder why the latter attract a type of ride you don't see in large numbers on Audaxes.

It could be the signage thing - but then again it took me 5 seconds to master an Audax routesheet and never thought it difficult.

It could be the timing thing and medals perhaps...

My pet theory is that it is to do with image. 

Last September I went to buy a carbon bike in a very trendy shop that clearly catered for the triathlete/serious roadie market and when I said I might use the bike on an Audax I was told by the very genuine and otherwise well-informed assistant that I couldn't because you couldn't get mudguards on the frame.  There followed quite a lot of harmless banter about flapjacks etc.  Although they meant no harm I got the distinct feeling that my hobby wasn't really very cool - men my age will recognise the syndrome when I compare it to buying your first pair of jeans when you were 15 or plucking up the courage to buy your first LP!

I set the guy straight (he might be able to walk again soon) and he was actually quite interested once I'd explained a few things and talked up the 'endurance blah blah, mind against the elements blah blah, heroic endeavor' sort of stuff.

But he must get the idea from somewhere.  Perhaps it is in cycling mags like the one I bought last August because its cover promised a feature on Audax bikes.  Inside was an article banging on about the joy of cake and three bike reviews (machines with 'Audax' in their names) which kept mentioning mudguard clearance... and cakes.

There's probably a whole discussion to be had about whether we want to change the image and keep the SR challenge as the best kept secret in cycling.  However, I like the relaxed feel to Audax events, the idea that someone has given up their time for free for my enjoyment, the friendliness of the people you ride with and I'd love to share it with more people.

As someone who has worked in PR and communications for quite a few years I'm sure there is much that could be done if we put our minds to it. 

Liam

[Martin]

Liam; could not agree more with your post. Image and marketing is everything. BTW the Bronze standard on the ride today would have been missed by about half the participants on my event. Although of course they would all have been completely wet on if it were a serious road race.

A local club has been religously riding all the local 100km Audaxes (including the Grimpeurs) since the end of last year's TT season. I suggested that the logical step was to move up El Supremo's first 200 this weekend and got the sound of tumbleweed.

I suppose it could also be argued that the riders I saw today have nothing to do with AUK and we can all carry on living separate lives with no harm done.

(edit; Stan, most of the local events are El Supremo catering or a similar version so involve no cafes; in fact not putting your hands in your pockets for anything except the brevet card all day)

[StanThomas]

This is something of a pet subject of mine. And, come the end of May I hope to be able to give the low down on the pluses and minuses of turning an audax into a cyclosport.

For me, the advantages of a cyclosport are route marking and feed stations. I need glasses to read a route sheet so a nice big arrow makes life so much easier. And I've never been one for messing about in cafes.

[Gandalf]

As a thus far non- combatant please permit me a few ramblings in the hope it might help.

Putting my 'man on the Clapham Omnibus'  hat on I can well understand the perception that Audax has something of the Middle Earth about it.  Whilst obvious to the regulars, all the talk of perms, DIYs,  getting till receipts from petrol stations etc could  be perceived as a Royal PITA to your average punter.

Compare this to the slick marketing, signage, promise of regular feed stations and the general perception that you won't get lost, confused  and/or abandoned of the Sportive.

I would imagine that most folk contemplating an organised cycling event of some distance for the first time wishes to concentrate on meeting the physical challenge and getting a nice trinket to show the wife and kids afterwards.  

Compare this to something which might be perceived to be  a bizzare combination of cycling and orienteering.

I suspect that many people would rather pay £20 for a Sportive rather than £5 for an Audax, assuming that the target audience is first timers, who will view the event as a one off.

I hope this helps.

[saturn]

I rode a sportive today, cost only a quid or two more than a typical audax because check out / check in rather than expensive chips etc for timing. Feedstation and bacon rolls etc at the end included. A routesheet was provided but wasn't needed because of good signage. Complete spectrum of riders & bikes from fast carbon to panniers.

Differences to an audax:

- Times provided for those who are interested in a speed challenge but no pressure on those who aren't.

- No controls, plenty of possible shortcuts including missing out the biggest hill but it seems sportive entrants can be trusted to follow the route they've paid for and if they don't nobody cares (no points or prizes for the fastest times only personal satisfaction).

- Route signed, no need to interpret and follow a routesheet although one was provided if needed / preferred.

- Flexible start time between 07:30 and 09:30 so no large unwieldy groups near the start.

- Not deliberately routed to include open cafes (the only downside IMHO)

My buddy and me rode it very much at audax speed and apart from the above it could have been an audax.

In two weeks we're doing another that's organised on a similar basis, costs a bit more at £10 but a good chunk of that goes to the air ambulance.

I don't do the more expensive sportives though.

[chris]

The long and short of this is that IMO Audax is failing dismally to attract this very eager market at this sort of distance and we need to do something to prevent AUK events like this vanishing completely

I don't quite understand what you mean by this. A quick scan of the Audax results for last year shows that populaires were by far the best attended events, and although they do not attract as many riders as most sportives, they are still well attended. Many Audax events have a limit on the number of entries, usually as controls do not have the capacity to handle any more. On more that one occasion I have not been able to ride an event as it has been full. Audax events are, almost without exception ran by volunteers, whereas I believe that spotives are mostly commercial or charity based ventures, and all about getting as many entires as possible so that profits are maximised. If Audax organisers were encouraged to 'market' their events I believe that many would simply stop running them, but that doesn't mean that Audax is failing.

[Hot Flatus]

I saw literally hundreds of riders all packing very serious kit;

Now go and have a flick through Arrivee.  Not quite the same is it.  There are marketing issues, but really the spirit of audax is the volunteer aspect.  It's almost like a bicycle version of the church community.

The one thing that audax can never be accused of is pretence. Its a bunch of, largely, old duffers actually doing and excelling in the rides. I'm not so sure that sportives don't contain more than a smattering of fantasising racer wannabes.

[Martin]

The long and short of this is that IMO Audax is failing dismally to attract this very eager market at this sort of distance and we need to do something to prevent AUK events like this vanishing completely

I don't quite understand what you mean by this. A quick scan of the Audax results for last year shows that populaires were by far the best attended events, and although they do not attract as many riders as most sportives, they are still well attended.

What I meant was Audax is failing to attract the burgeoning market that exists for sportives going out for a good hard ride on your nice bike; and for no good reason as the two types of event are broadly similar given or take the timing chips route sheets waymarks and energy gels.

and as Populaires are the grass roots by which riders enter the world of AUK we could lose out as sportives cash in for very valid reasons mentioned upthread. I hope I'm wrong.

The one thing that audax can never be accused of is pretence. Its a bunch of, largely, old duffers actually doing and excelling in the rides. I'm not so sure that sportives don't contain more than a smattering of fantasising racer wannabes.

Sportives are not races; the nearest thing in Old Money they possibly compare to is the good old Reliability Trial where you try to complete within a certain time band or else you fail.

Road races? forget it, I was blown clear out of the water on the few I did and that was when I could still do a TT. So sportive riders are only competing against other non racers as you say. But they are going from strength to strength and most of the people who ride them do not seem that concerned at what they cost and where it all goes.

[Hot Flatus]

the two types of event are broadly similar given or take the timing chips route sheets waymarks and energy gels.

They may be, but the aspirations of the riders are another thing entirely

[Manotea]

A local club has been religously riding all the local 100km Audaxes (including the Grimpeurs) since the end of last year's TT season. I suggested that the logical step was to move up El Supremo's first 200 this weekend and got the sound of tumbleweed.

Haven't we just had this discussion (ref: my post on the thread on premonitions where I said I mainly experienced Deja Vu)?

The sky isn't about to fall in on Audax & CTC events because of a growing interest in Sportives, because whilst apparently similar Audax, CTC and Sportive events are completely different in character and appeal to different types of riders. I believe its called market segmentation/differentiation.

Sportive riders want to rip up the countryside on high performance bikes and be home for tea, CTC riders want to pootle round the countryside and be home for tea, whilst Audaxers are just getting into their stride by teatime.

That's it, really.

[Jaded]

Sportives appear to be more like organised Marathons. Many thousands if not millions of people have dome and are aware of Marathons. So doing a marathon with a bike isn't a big step.

Audaxes seem to be a bit more like those mad endurance hill runners that all got lost in the weather in the spring. No one knows that kind of event exists and when they hear about it they think the participants are mad.

[cc93]

Different markets surely - there are no Sportives (AFAIK) above 199km and no (strict definition) Audaxes below 200km?

[Fixedwheelnut]

 I think it is mainly the difference between a route sheet and sign posts and that sportive times are posted so they can claim bragging rights.

 I think the fact that sportives are arranged by race clubs rather than CTC DA's also plays into it with how many helpers you get.
 Every year I struggle to get enough [10] people to marshall my Grimpeur event, yet as a Catford CC member the Hell of the Ashdown saw approx 50 volunteers ready and willing 

[Wowbagger]

Does it matter that Audax is supported by only the select few?

I tried a "sportive" once and by the time Mrs.Wow and I had arrived back at the start some 8 hours later they'd all buggered off and were shirty that we took our time when I commented on the fact, even though we had entered as "tourists". You wouldn't find an audax organiser doing that.

Not that crowded controls have ever bothered me on an audax because I'm too slow and they are normally ready to pack up when I've been through, but you do hear tales about people wasting half an hour or more waiting for a stamp or a till receipt. If you had a couple of hundred entrants, that would exacerbate that problem.

In my view, all that matters is that people ride their bikes on roads.

[geraldc]

How annoyed would you be if you spent over a grand on a carbon bike, hundreds on Assos kit, etc and then on a ride got overtaken by a scruffy looking bloke wearing sandals riding a 20 year old steel bike with mudguards rack and Brooks saddle, and a tattered Carradice hanging off his saddle.

They maybe roughly the same event, but the way they differentiate themselves allows the individuals in each event to achieve the goals they set themselves.

[teethgrinder]

How annoyed would you be if you spent over a grand on a carbon bike, hundreds on Assos kit, etc and then on a ride got overtaken by a scruffy looking bloke wearing sandals riding a 20 year old steel bike with mudguards rack and saddle, and a tattered Carradice hanging off his saddle.

What a wonderfull idea.
Would riding a fixed wheel piss them off even more, do you think?
 

[Tim Hall]

I thought Jack wore Dunlop Greenflash, not sandals.

[Martin]

How annoyed would you be if you spent over a grand on a carbon bike, hundreds on Assos kit, etc and then on a ride got overtaken by a scruffy looking bloke wearing sandals riding a 20 year old steel bike with mudguards rack and saddle, and a tattered Carradice hanging off his saddle.

What a wonderfull idea.
Would riding a fixed wheel piss them off even more, do you think?
 

I notice from the website that they didn't allow 'bents or tandems so worth a punt

[StanThomas]

(edit; Stan, most of the local events are El Supremo catering or a similar version so involve no cafes; in fact not putting your hands in your pockets for anything except the brevet card all day)

Ok, you've told me. But do you tell *everyone*?
My presumption is audax=cafe stops, cyclosport=feed stations in lay-bys. Some organisers and events get a reputation for the type of stops they favour, Ken Knight's Shrewsbury audaxes come to mind as ones that provide their own catering. But you won't know until you've ridden them.
And I meet folk who want the cafes. Even on a cyclosport. Sitting down to beanz on toast or stopping for a pint on a 100km grimpeur strikes me as odd but the time limit's there and they use it to make a day of it.

[Martin]

(edit; Stan, most of the local events are El Supremo catering or a similar version so involve no cafes; in fact not putting your hands in your pockets for anything except the brevet card all day)

Ok, you've told me. But do you tell *everyone*?
My presumption is audax=cafe stops, cyclosport=feed stations in lay-bys.

Well I do as I have to provide a (hopelessly inadequate by comparison) service to rival El Supremo. I also advertise it as such on the AUK calendar page. I do charge a small amount for food at the end as that does seem to be something not everyone wants.

I think that is something that could be improved on the AUK site; 3 commercial cafe controls (and even a cafe start) can start to make a Sportive look very cheap by comparison round my way....

[Von Broad]

I noticed quite a few of the waymarks around whilst out and about yesterday and today (and very professional they were too complete with little signs before the tricky turns).

'waymarks'? 'little signs'?

Martin, that is well 'andbag mate, bit too NuLabour, touch of the nanny state about if you ask me 

Thing is, this works for a 100km. Even for a 100km, it's a lot of work to get important road signs organised throughout the route. What happens when it's a 200km, 300km etc How many signs go to make up a 600km? How does a sportive run a 600km? Do they? I've no idea. That's a lot fo signs.

The other thing is the connection to history, in the sense that 'all roads lead to Paris' syndrome. Audax has it's roots & origins in Europe does it not? [was it Italy even?] So AUK is part of a larger brotherhood [god that sounds a bit naff] of sister [even naffer] organisations throughout the world that have loose connections & affiliations , that enable riders from one country to ride a big event in another country providing that do an SR in their home country. One of the only many things I enjoyed about PBP was this kind of melting pot of nationalites for the one big ride.
Maybe Sportive Uk, could also fulfil this kind of qualifying obligation, but if it does then it needs to get somebody to cover the length of Wales to post signposts so people can ride without a route sheet.

And the bit about not accepting bents and tandems. Well [loads shotgun] where did you read that? I can understand people getting 'most annoyed' with bents*, but a tandem is just a longer DF innit?

Happy days

[incidentally, I met a mate of yours from Sussex on the Kennet 100 yesterday, Irish gent, Alister? he seemed to know all you folks down there  in Sussex]

* except the kids, they always seem to see the fun in it all 

[Marmitegeoff]

Does it matter that Audax is supported by only the select few?

I tried a "sportive" once and by the time Mrs.Wow and I had arrived back at the start some 8 hours later they'd all buggered off and were shirty that we took our time when I commented on the fact, even though we had entered as "tourists". You wouldn't find an audax organiser doing that.

I have to disagree a few years ago I entered a 200k event and told the organiser that I would be last.  at the final control I also mentioned to him that I was doing RRTY.  When I got to the finish, everything was closed down, with the organiser sitting in his car waiting for my card.  He opened the window took the card asked if I was OK and then left. 

I have to say that I will never ride one of that clubs events again, even though some of the route was very enjoyable.

Geoff

[ludwig]

I am with Manotea on this one. it just seems to be a case of horses for courses. I have never done a sportive but I am not tempted by the signs or the energy gels or the timing. Audax does have a different image but there are plenty of young, fit, trendy guys doing audaxes. I did my first 200 of the year as a DIY this weekend now there's something you can't do as a sportive. I think AUK is doing just fine and should not be worried about the plethora of sportives but should rejoice in the fact that more people are getting off their arses and out oftheir cars and into the countryside on their bikes of a weekend.

[Rich753]

How annoyed would you be if you spent over a grand on a carbon bike, hundreds on Assos kit, etc and then on a ride got overtaken by a scruffy looking bloke wearing sandals riding a 20 year old steel bike with mudguards rack and saddle, and a tattered Carradice hanging off his saddle.

What a wonderfull idea.
Would riding a fixed wheel piss them off even more, do you think?
 

Wouldn't bother me in the slightest.  Somebody else more physically capable than I am?  Got over that type of insecurity in the playground.